Why the radiance seem a lot stronger than the Fused? Fused's powers possibly scale with radiant ideals

[NameIess]

28 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

We have this direct quote from the Stormfather: "EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MINDS."

There's probably multiple factors at play but I think it's plausible that number of rebirths is the biggest one. And if that's the case, then it'd be natural for the Fused type which dies the least to have the sanest Fused.

That does make sense.

[BenduLuke]

I suspect that we may have already seen some of the materials or weapons used against 4th oath radiants. As of yet we really haven't seen how either Aluminum or Raisium weapons interact with shard plate and the Spren that create them. It could be materially different than how it interacts with Shardblades since lesser spren have been shown to act adversely to aluminum and Raisium has a major affect on Stormlight and voidlight even in gems so it might in Shardplate.

I can also see population and advancement levels making a difference and like in the Sword of Truth seriies Richard could do things thought impossible by others simply because he was ignorant of supposed limitations.

Another thing is that even in the old days we have no Idea how many radiants progressed to even 3rd and above, they could have been very rare so not much of an issue in the distant past.

I personally don't think there is that much of a power difference between Radiants and Odiums forces since the vast majority of both are very inexperienced so are just learning what they can do.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:03 AM, ILIYA said:

3- This is the most likely one and that's that Fused's powers scale with the radiance as in once the radiance advance in their ideals. For example, once there will be more radiance of higher ideals, the more powerful the fused become! This potentially explains a lot of things as well. 

I don't think there's any direct magic connection between them, but I think it's possible that at some point H&C managed to get Odium to agree to a "fair fight" clause in some sort of way, trying to keep approximately even numbers between the sides, with Odium not bringing back "sleeping" Fused until there's a certain number of Radiants with similar powers or something (it's rather interesting to me that the shanay-im and mavset-im seem to be among the more common Fused while there's only one awakened nex-im, just as there's a lot of Windrunners+Skybreakers and Lightweavers but only one [known to them] Elsecaller or Willshaper). Which would give each side more of a fighting chance (which Honor and probably Cultivation would like) but would result in far more brutal wars compared to if one side won quickly (which Odium would like, especially with his "training ground" idea). So the Fused might be being forced to hold back in numbers or power until Radiants reach higher levels.

At least, that's how I'm rationalizing it, because yeah going off RoW the Radiants should have crushed the Fused when there were hundreds or thousands with full Blade and Plate

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Another thing is that even in the old days we have no Idea how many radiants progressed to even 3rd and above, they could have been very rare so not much of an issue in the distant past.

A point on this

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

Do you mind telling us what the average number of Knights for a Knight Radiant Order were (barring Bondmiths) and possibly how close the different orders worked together?

Brandon Sanderson

It varied very widely, and depended on many factors. At their highest, some orders had members in the low thousands.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

 

[DiePie]

16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't think there's any direct magic connection between them, but I think it's possible that at some point H&C managed to get Odium to agree to a "fair fight" clause in some sort of way, trying to keep approximately even numbers between the sides, with Odium not bringing back "sleeping" Fused until there's a certain number of Radiants with similar powers or something

it might be that awakening "sleeping" fused from Braize requires Odium to do some sort of action... which means that if he brings too many over at a time he could potentially open himself up to an attack by cultivation (Something we've seen he's rather paranoid of), and so Rayse would try and play it safe... it's not like he thought he was pressed for time right?

 

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

A point on this

  Hide contents

VindicationKnight

Do you mind telling us what the average number of Knights for a Knight Radiant Order were (barring Bondmiths) and possibly how close the different orders worked together?

Brandon Sanderson

It varied very widely, and depended on many factors. At their highest, some orders had members in the low thousands.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

 

First of all I'm going to assume that this is around the time of the false desolation, when Human and Spren populations were most likely at their peak (at least during the era of the knights radiant).

Second of all, If I'm not mistaken, we have confirmation, one way or another, that the largest orders (so the ones Brandon is talking about) are the Edgedancers and Windrunners. From what I understand most Edgedancers would have spent most of their time traveling around the countryside, visiting towns, cities, etc. to help the people who lived there. Which leaves Windrunners as the more important to estimate. From RoW we know that the majority of Windrunners are squires (I assume that those are being counted as part of their order), but that's because of unusual circumstances, more of them should have bonded spren but most Honorspren don't want to bond humans again. However, during the time period of the false desolation, I see it as likely that Human population growth outmatched the growth in population of Spren, so I'm going to say that about half of all windrunners were squires (1st or 2nd oaths) and didn't have blades.

Third, I'm going to assume that, at any given time, only 1/5-1/10 Windrunners actually had plate, and that a small, but significant, number of them were reserved to serve as generals and aids (or for other tasks that meant they rarely were on battlefields). This leaves us with ~50-100 Windrunners with plate fighting at their peak... against Regals.

Assuming that between the orders we get ~200 Radiants in plate fighting at any given time, even assuming they spend most of their time moving from place to place to counter strikes because of the lack of enforceable front lines, they would be able to deal enough damage to quickly lay waste to any regals we've seen, and kill enough singers that they can't continue the war... Unless there's something more. There must be stronger Regals than we've seen, or the Radiants are stronger than they were.

 

Personally I think both, but that the Radiant's strength growth has been rather minimal (being slightly more efficient with stormlight, plate being stronger or more easily controlled etc.) with the exception of bondsmiths. After honor's death the spren would have gained more power, and more control over that power.

But either way that's not what I'm here to argue, the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram must have in some way weakened the regals, as they had to have stood up to the Radiants on their own. While a single regal probably couldn't 1v1 4th level radiant, 20-30 might've been able to overwhelm one, especially if they had the help of a Thunderclast, or Re-Shephir and a contingent of warform soldiers to help them it's possible.

I do not think that Ba-Ado-Mishrim was required for that, it may just be that Odium is less interested in Investing into common singers than Mishram was.

 

However I do think that we are being a bit unfair comparing the fused to Kaladin, there's definitely something going on with him specifically (the whole "Child of Tarnavast" that the Stormfather calls him and him alone, as well as the, 'he's good with a spear because he would become good with a spear' that only he's experiencing), it might be that your average Fused would have a much easier time against a 4th level Radiant than we've been lead to believe.

 

Also consider that the fused may have had more access to Aluminum and Raysium, which could allow them to better combat Shardblades/plate.

 

I also think that we're underestimating the amount population has grown in this time period. There is a much smaller singer population than human one, and human population has most likely exploded between the Desolations and when the story takes place. Assuming that there were a similar number of humans to Singers during the Desolations, human Surgebinders would have had to do much more work fighting on the ground than they do now, fighting fused.

 

During the earlier Desolations however, the Heralds most likely didn't give as much of an advantage to the Humans, they didn't have nearly as much experience as they have now, and much of Ishar's skill seems to have to do with being a Stormlight Savant, so we can assume the same for the rest.

 

But getting back to the later desolations, they were probably still difficult for the humans to win because they were so close together. The fused give more of an advantage in bloody wars, since they don't need to be trained as much as Radiants do, because they don't need to be replaced when killed (well the body does, but those are much easier to find than trained soldiers.)

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, DiePie said:

First of all I'm going to assume that this is around the time of the false desolation, when Human and Spren populations were most likely at their peak (at least during the era of the knights radiant).

Second of all, If I'm not mistaken, we have confirmation, one way or another, that the largest orders (so the ones Brandon is talking about) are the Edgedancers and Windrunners. From what I understand most Edgedancers would have spent most of their time traveling around the countryside, visiting towns, cities, etc. to help the people who lived there. Which leaves Windrunners as the more important to estimate. From RoW we know that the majority of Windrunners are squires (I assume that those are being counted as part of their order), but that's because of unusual circumstances, more of them should have bonded spren but most Honorspren don't want to bond humans again. However, during the time period of the false desolation, I see it as likely that Human population growth outmatched the growth in population of Spren, so I'm going to say that about half of all windrunners were squires (1st or 2nd oaths) and didn't have blades.

Third, I'm going to assume that, at any given time, only 1/5-1/10 Windrunners actually had plate, and that a small, but significant, number of them were reserved to serve as generals and aids (or for other tasks that meant they rarely were on battlefields). This leaves us with ~50-100 Windrunners with plate fighting at their peak... against Regals.

Assuming that between the orders we get ~200 Radiants in plate fighting at any given time, even assuming they spend most of their time moving from place to place to counter strikes because of the lack of enforceable front lines, they would be able to deal enough damage to quickly lay waste to any regals we've seen, and kill enough singers that they can't continue the war... Unless there's something more. There must be stronger Regals than we've seen, or the Radiants are stronger than they were.

 

Personally I think both, but that the Radiant's strength growth has been rather minimal (being slightly more efficient with stormlight, plate being stronger or more easily controlled etc.) with the exception of bondsmiths. After honor's death the spren would have gained more power, and more control over that power.

But either way that's not what I'm here to argue, the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram must have in some way weakened the regals, as they had to have stood up to the Radiants on their own. While a single regal probably couldn't 1v1 4th level radiant, 20-30 might've been able to overwhelm one, especially if they had the help of a Thunderclast, or Re-Shephir and a contingent of warform soldiers to help them it's possible.

I do not think that Ba-Ado-Mishrim was required for that, it may just be that Odium is less interested in Investing into common singers than Mishram was.

 

However I do think that we are being a bit unfair comparing the fused to Kaladin, there's definitely something going on with him specifically (the whole "Child of Tarnavast" that the Stormfather calls him and him alone, as well as the, 'he's good with a spear because he would become good with a spear' that only he's experiencing), it might be that your average Fused would have a much easier time against a 4th level Radiant than we've been lead to believe.

 

Also consider that the fused may have had more access to Aluminum and Raysium, which could allow them to better combat Shardblades/plate.

 

I also think that we're underestimating the amount population has grown in this time period. There is a much smaller singer population than human one, and human population has most likely exploded between the Desolations and when the story takes place. Assuming that there were a similar number of humans to Singers during the Desolations, human Surgebinders would have had to do much more work fighting on the ground than they do now, fighting fused.

 

During the earlier Desolations however, the Heralds most likely didn't give as much of an advantage to the Humans, they didn't have nearly as much experience as they have now, and much of Ishar's skill seems to have to do with being a Stormlight Savant, so we can assume the same for the rest.

 

But getting back to the later desolations, they were probably still difficult for the humans to win because they were so close together. The fused give more of an advantage in bloody wars, since they don't need to be trained as much as Radiants do, because they don't need to be replaced when killed (well the body does, but those are much easier to find than trained soldiers.)

So While yes their peak was likely after Aharietarm during the desolations they likely still had mid to low hundreds in each order, and close to 600-800 for some of the larger orders.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

I believe Sanderson has said that the Knights Radiant are supposed to be the most powerful invested mortals in the Cosmere.  A full Radiant is more powerful than a Mistborn, the Returned, a Fused, or anything else we have currently seen in the Cosmere.  This is because the requirements to become a Radiant are far more stringent than anything else in the Cosmere.  For example:

1. A Radiant has to obey fairly restrictive oaths, and learn to embody them by the 5th Ideal. 
2. A Radiant has to attract and bond with intelligent beings called spren, which is a risky and intimate bond.
3. A Radiant is restricted to Roshar, which is the only known source of stormlight in the Cosmere.  Sure a Radiant could carry stormlight with them, but eventually, that stormlight will dissipate.  That is also assuming a Radiant could leave.  Kalak was completely trapped.  It seems the more invested a Radiant is, the more they are tied to Roshar

The power of the Knights Radiant are offset by the restrictions.  Honor also invested far more of himself to Roshar than any other shard, meaning that the Radiant Oaths hold a bit more power than the power Endowment endowed to the Returned. 

I am not sure about this, but I think Odium's power involves copying the powers of other shards.  The only reason they are slightly different is because Odium's holy number is 9 not 10.  So I think it makes sense that Honor's power system (which has plenty of restrictions), is more powerful than Odium's power system in the long run.

Edited January 22, 2022 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Wandering Shade]

To bring this thread back around to its main topic, I think we've kinda proven that the theory of the Fused increasing with power as Radiants swear higher Ideals would be very weird and incongruent with how Shardic power has been portrayed, and also isn't necessary to explain the struggles that humanity went through during each Desolation.

Quick summary of why this theory was posed:
Radiants are more powerful than Fused, capable of using more Stormlight per-second (more Lashings) than Fused are. They also have the added benefit of Shardblades and Plate which drastically increases their power output.
We see Fused get beaten by our new Radiants a lot in O and RoW despite our new Radiants not having the long history of the previous orders and almost no Shardplate.
If the Knights Radiant of the past had more people with Shardplate (which we know is true, at least of the False Desolation time), then it should not have been too difficult for them to kill the Fused with impunity given their greater power, weapons, and armor.
If the Fused scaled in power with the Radiants, it would be an easy explanation as to how they were constantly a threat to humanity no matter how strong the Knights Radiant ever became.

"Quick" summary of why this theory is probably inaccurate:
It doesn't really make too much sense for Fused to have their power scale off of the Knights Radiant as they would need to be Connected to each other which we haven't seen too much evidence for.
While Kaladin can compare with Leshwi in combat, no other Windrunner can due to her thousands of years of experience. Kaladin is special and should not be treated as the baseline for Radiant power.
The Fused and Singers greatly outnumbered humanity in the past, causing the Radiants to be spread thin defending everyone at all times. And, as we learned in WoK "Shardbearers can't hold ground," which applies to Radiants and Fused as well. While the battles might be won by the Invested forces, it is the regular soldiers that do the bulk of the fighting.
Modern humanity has incredible fabrial and warfare technology which allow their regular forces to be far more efficient than in the past.
The other forces in the Fused's arsenal (Thunderclasts, Voidspren, Regals/Forms of Power) greatly enhance their army combat powers, and not all of the Fused and Thunderclasts have transferred from Braise to Roshar yet.
It is highly likely that the Fused have some type of Raysium weapons or something else which allow them to fight against Shardplate which we have not yet seen simply because there has not been a reason to use them yet and the Fused do not want to lose the element of surprise.

And yet, even with all the advantages the Fused and Singers have had against the Radiants, Humanity still won every Desolation in the past, something which can probably be attributed to the incredible power of the Knights Radiant, but also the determination and ingenuity of humans.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I am not sure about this, but I think Odium's power involves copying the powers of other shards.  The only reason they are slightly different is because Odium's holy number is 9 not 10.  So I think it makes sense that Honor's power system (which has plenty of restrictions), is more powerful than Odium's power system in the long run.

It's Braize not Odium that is 9 centric

[Wandering Shade]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's Braize not Odium that is 9 centric

Frustration, I've noticed this with how you make your posts (since you reply all over the place lol).

You like to make blanket statements like this without providing any evidence to back it up. If you could edit to add a WoB that explains that, it would be nice. I trust that you're right, you know your stuff, but it is possible that you're misremembering something so having some proof would be nice

[HSuperLee]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's Braize not Odium that is 9 centric

I don't know that it's that clear cut yet.

Quote

R'Shara

Has Braize always been 9-centric or did it become so because of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Quote

Questioner

I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

It seems like its more likely that Odium is associated with 9 than that Braize is. Now, that's not to say that Odium is mimicking other Shard's powers, that does seem unlikely. But I'm not sure we can just dismiss 9 as being completely unrelated to or unimportant to Odium.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's Braize not Odium that is 9 centric

Both Braize and the Shard Odium are probebly 9 centric.  All the shards have a holy number associated with them. 

Ruin has 1 and Preservation has 16.  Endowment's is probably 5.  This has never been confirmed but many fans believe that Honor's holy number is 10 because the 10 orders, the 10 heralds, the 10 surges.  Odium's holy number is likely 9 because of the 9 Unmade and the 9 surges (the surge of adhesion is considered blasphemous).

Do you not think that Odium's holy number is 9? I suppose it could be something else.

Edited January 22, 2022 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Pathfinder]

Frustration is referring to this WoB. I believe there are more but I am still pulling them up

 

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

In the cosmere, sixteen is obviously a very important number, or very significant, but on Roshar everything comes in groups of ten. Is that a cultural construction or is that really how things are being grouped on that planet?

Brandon Sanderson

It is both. It is a cultural construction that came from slight cosmere events that are not super, super, super important. Like, there's a reason we think in base ten, right? Is it important to the universe? Meh? Right... And it's maybe a little more on Roshar, but at the same time it's like**

Questioner

There are ten orders of Surgebinders. Did they order them that way? Or are there actually sixteen different--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it kind of goes back to there were ten [Heralds] with ten sets of power given by Honor, and Honor is an individual, right, so does that make sense? You cannot separate, in a lot of places in the cosmere, the perspectives of the sapient beings who are interfering with what's going on. Even going back to the number sixteen.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018) Edited January 22, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Wandering Shade]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Frustration is referring to this WoB. I believe there are more but I am still pulling them up

Quote

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

 

Huzzah, thank you. Still, that doesn't answer the point of if Braize is only 9-centric because of Odium's presence there, or if it was always 9-centric, as BrandoSando specifically RAFO'd whether or not those numbers are based on the planets themselves or the shards that inhabit them.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Wandering Shade said:

Huzzah, thank you. Still, that doesn't answer the point of if Braize is only 9-centric because of Odium's presence there, or if it was always 9-centric, as BrandoSando specifically RAFO'd whether or not those numbers are based on the planets themselves or the shards that inhabit them.

Added another WoB I think while you were posting. Basically something already existed and then the shard, shows up, perceives it a way and the way they perceive it also affects it. So the implications is possibly 10 was a big thing regarding the planets already. Honor and cultivation perceived that to be so, and thereby the number came up in their magic system. So theoretically any other shard could have resulted in the exact same numeric. For instance autonomy could have showed up on roshar instead of Honor and cultivation and thereby resulted in autonomy having a 10 magic system.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, DiePie said:

This leaves us with ~50-100 Windrunners with plate fighting at their peak... against Regals.

Assuming that between the orders we get ~200 Radiants in plate fighting at any given time

There were 300 Stonewards and Windrunners with both Plate and Blade at Feverstone Keep alone, so there definitely seem to have been a lot more than 200 total, if just part of two orders was that much.

2 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

All the shards have a holy number associated with them. 

Not exactly.

Quote

The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

Firefight Portland signing (Jan. 16, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

Does each Shard have a favorite, or special, number or color?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that there are inclinations but it's not, perhaps, as specific as you are thinking.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Also, Ashyn is ten-based, yet WoB is that Cultivation is the relevant Shard there, not Honor (also worth noting, Surges and Radiants are of both Honor and Cultivation, not just Honor – though Heralds are just of Honor and yet are still ten and much of Vorin symbolism is based around this number as well, so it's presumably not just Cultivation's influence giving rise to that number either). Similarly, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy, and Allomancy all center around sixteen metals, despite Hemalurgy being of Ruin, Allomancy of Preservation, and Feruchemy being a mix. So I don't think it works for these numbers to all

There's also this remark from Khriss that seems to indicate most places are centered around four or sixteen, not their own numbers:

Quote

Indeed, on Roshar there are considered to be ten elements; not the traditional four or sixteen, depending upon local tradition.

Personally, I think the most likely explanation is just Brandon's good ol' fallback excuse for everyone: perception, and the sprenlike nature of Shards. Humans like assigning importance to lots of things, including numbers: just look at how often trios occur in myths, or seven being "lucky" and thirteen being "unlucky", or how multiples of five feel "round" to us due to the way our number system is set up.

And in the Cosmere, perception is a fundamental part of the way Investiture works, and the way spren and similar entities manifest. In my opinion, a lot of the symbolism in places can be attributed to latent effects from that (for example, Nalthians picking out a bunch of things with fives and deciding five is important, and this perception of several nations or even the entire planet of people influences the Shard that is deeply integrated into said planet and people and gives her a bit of a subconscious bias towards the number five as a nice round number that she jumps to when she doesn't think about it – hence what Brandon says about there being "inclinations" but it not being that "specific").

I think the Rosharan system actually provides a very clear example of that, due to the abundance and importance of spren. Brandon has indicated before that the Surges granted by the spren are based around what people perceive as fundamental (which makes sense, considering that from what both he and in-world people say it seems like the spren are pieces of the Surges, similar to how as the spren of the storm the Stormfather is the highstorm), though he has indicated that there were "seeds" set up (perhaps just Ado doing things like putting ten gas giants in the sky and littering tens in other places, with futuresight to guide it? or perhaps the Shards telling them "yep this is definitely how it is"? I have my own theories but I'm trying to keep this part a bit more factually-based with things we know seem to exist). So Rosharans and Ashynites both believe in a system of ten Surges and Essences, spren personify these, Honor and Cultivation uplift them (we know the sapient spren seem to have only come into existence after the Shards arrive, and if I remember correctly there's a more specific implication that they were indeed more intentional creations), and now they can be finangled into granting Physical beings control over the things they personify by merging their spirits. Meanwhile, similarly to on Nalthis, the Shards have integrated themselves extremely deeply into things on Roshar, and so this pretty much universal belief messes with them subtly, and so when they do things without specifically picking a number, they often gravitate towards multiples of ten, because it just feels "right" subconsciously (just as people IRL will often do the same, because of our base-ten system). Meanwhile, the Fused reject Adhesion, and believe there are only nine true Surges. They're also basically the only inhabitants of Braize, the place Odium is Invested in. So rather than ten, Odium instinctively reaches for nines when he acts, because he finds that number feels right and natural to use instead.

Also worth noting that on Scadrial, a lot of the sixteens are intentionally set up: when setting up the mist Snapping, Leras considered several options, and eventually settled on sixteen because he knew people would recognize it due to the metals. Not something inherent to the Shard's actions, just an intentional hint seeded into mythology to let them pick out that it was an abnormal occurrence. Similarly, a lot of what Yomen cites is stuff Rashek set up, and perhaps stuff Rashek made up considering how long it's been since the events.

(That got way longer than expected... oops :p)

[DiePie]

9 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There were 300 Stonewards and Windrunners with both Plate and Blade at Feverstone Keep alone, so there definitely seem to have been a lot more than 200 total, if just part of two orders was that much.

yeah that's a good point. Even trying to haggle down the numbers (Honor may have exaggerated the scale of the Recreance to prove a point, all of the Stonewards/Windrunners who had plate/blade were there) the minimum count for plate would probably be 500 because of all the other orders, but probably closer to 1.5x or 2x that.

Seems I was just completely wrong with my estimates.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

(Honor may have exaggerated the scale of the Recreance to prove a point, all of the Stonewards/Windrunners who had plate/blade were there)

WoB is that it's accurate, apparently (though perhaps that's a small enough detail it could count as an "accurate" vision but be modified a bit for thematic reasons like you suggest, idk):

Quote

R'Shara

Is the vision that Dalinar of the Recreance; is that how it actually happened?

Brandon Sanderson

You can assume that even though it was a recreation, that it is accurate.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

Seems I was just completely wrong with my estimates.

I am curious if those estimates might hold for normal Desolations, the False Desolation seems to have been a desperate "all hands on deck" event but I'd think most would be that too... but then, in the past the spren might've been more hesitant to lend their aid, so perhaps during most times it was a smaller number. Hard to say.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Frustration, I've noticed this with how you make your posts (since you reply all over the place lol).

You like to make blanket statements like this without providing any evidence to back it up. If you could edit to add a WoB that explains that, it would be nice. I trust that you're right, you know your stuff, but it is possible that you're misremembering something so having some proof would be nice

Yeah proabably something I should get better at lol

7 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Both Braize and the Shard Odium are probebly 9 centric.  All the shards have a holy number associated with them. 

Ruin has 1 and Preservation has 16.  Endowment's is probably 5.  This has never been confirmed but many fans believe that Honor's holy number is 10 because the 10 orders, the 10 heralds, the 10 surges.  Odium's holy number is likely 9 because of the 9 Unmade and the 9 surges (the surge of adhesion is considered blasphemous).

Do you not think that Odium's holy number is 9? I suppose it could be something else.

What makes you say Ruin is one? Or Preservation 16?

6 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Huzzah, thank you. Still, that doesn't answer the point of if Braize is only 9-centric because of Odium's presence there, or if it was always 9-centric, as BrandoSando specifically RAFO'd whether or not those numbers are based on the planets themselves or the shards that inhabit them.

The Rosharan system was ten centric before Honor and Cultivation showed up, which can be seen in it's ten gas giants. Additionally Voidbinding has ten levels.

[CryoZenith]

8 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I am curious if those estimates might hold for normal Desolations, the False Desolation seems to have been a desperate "all hands on deck" event but I'd think most would be that too... but then, in the past the spren might've been more hesitant to lend their aid, so perhaps during most times it was a smaller number. Hard to say.

Considering that spren didn't get deadeye'd before the Recreance, I would assume that hesitancy was much, much lower, rather than higher.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

Considering that spren didn't get deadeye'd before the Recreance, I would assume that hesitancy was much, much lower, rather than higher.

I don't mean hesitancy over the risk of being deadeyed, just like, not wanting to get involved/none of them wanting to go fight, or the bond being less understood at first and so the spren being less interested in it, or spren not necessarily finding the humans worthy of a major commitment.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

What makes you say Ruin is one? Or Preservation 16?

Because Allomancy, created by preservation, is composed of 16 base metals.  Also Leras says that 16 is the perfect number.  Hemalurgy, created by Ruin, using a single Hemalurgic spike to transport powers. 

But this topic has deviated far from the main topic.  I only mentioned the holy numbers in passing.  The main focus should be about why the Radiants are stronger than the Fused

[Anomander Rake]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

What makes you say Ruin is one? Or Preservation 16?

The Rosharan system was ten centric before Honor and Cultivation showed up, which can be seen in it's ten gas giants. Additionally Voidbinding has ten levels.

 

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

In the most recent Hero of Ages annotation, you said that Preservation chose Vin to be the recipient of the power, just as Preservation had chosen Alendi previously (thus, this was why Ruin had manipulated the Prophecies). Was Alendi also chosen precisely sixteen years before the Well of Ascension's power returned?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. He was chosen exactly sixteen years before, but he was a bit older then Vin when he was chosen.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

Spoiler

Questioner

Is ten of significance in Roshar as sixteen is on Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it is.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Despite the references to sixteen across the cosmere, these seem to point more to Preservation specifically as opposed to the cosmere wide phenomena with the number.  I'd guess the first Shards to inhabit a system dictate the number associated with it.  

On Scadrial - Ruin x Preservation - 1 and 16.  If we use multiplication (idk), we'd get 16 for the system.  This also works for Feruchemy, their joint system, having 16 base powers.

On Roshar - Honor x Cultivation show up first - 10 and 2(this is a guess, boon + curse) - 10 Orders, 2 powers each.  Odium shows up and invests Braize more heavily than Honor and Cultivation, trumping their 10 with his 9.

Preservation also pulled that 16% of the army gets sick thing, and i swear there were originally 16 beads of Lerasium left at the well, of which Rashek left two, though I can't for the life of my find the relevant WoB

Edited January 23, 2022 by Anomander Rake
Grammar

[Anomander Rake]

Spoiler

SageOfTheWise

Is there a reason why Rashek left a nugget of Lerasium at the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

He left several. It was, in his opinion, one of the best kept secrets and best protected locations in his empire.

Phantine

Were there originally 16 of them?

Brandon Sanderson

An excellent guess.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 11, 2015)

Aha, Found it!  Not an explicit yes, but I'd put my money on that being it.  We know they were left by Leras, so I think this would lead some more credence to sixteen being the number also directly associated with Preservation.

Spoiler

Questioner

How were the original beads of Lerasium created?

Brandon Sanderson

They were created for the purpose that they were originally used for.

Questioner

Who created them?

Brandon Sanderson

They were created by Leras.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

  Reveal hidden contents

SageOfTheWise

Is there a reason why Rashek left a nugget of Lerasium at the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

He left several. It was, in his opinion, one of the best kept secrets and best protected locations in his empire.

Phantine

Were there originally 16 of them?

Brandon Sanderson

An excellent guess.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 11, 2015)

Aha, Found it!  Not an explicit yes, but I'd put my money on that being it.  We know they were left by Leras, so I think this would lead some more credence to sixteen being the number also directly associated with Preservation.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How were the original beads of Lerasium created?

Brandon Sanderson

They were created for the purpose that they were originally used for.

Questioner

Who created them?

Brandon Sanderson

They were created by Leras.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

Is 16 associated with Preservation, or is Preservation associated with 16? I think that Leras saw 16 as an important number mainly because of the 16 shards. So yes, Preservation would be associated with 16, but if I had to guess, multiple other shards would be associated with 16 as well. 4 should also be an important number, given the Dawnshards.