Why the radiance seem a lot stronger than the Fused? Fused's powers possibly scale with radiant ideals

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

He has the skills, but fighting someone in full regenerating shardplate with a shapeshifting blade that cuts through anything (disregarding other powers) head on is pretty stupid when all you can do is teleport. You move around them, disorient them, make them constantly watch for you out of the corner of their eye, until finally you wear them down enough to kill them. His powerset is perfect for "pursuing" people, and that's where his skills lie. Not in fighting on a battlefield, but in hunting his prey, constantly harrying them, until he eventually wears them down or finds them in a moment of weakness.

The wording implies one more fused, not multiple.

She was almost immediately beaten by the first fused she fought, and only survived because she took him by surprise with her powers. Sure, she would have been more effective using her powers to their fullest, but why didn't she? Because they would have swarmed her immediately. Additionally, she had access to tons of stormlight, without worry of using it all up or needing to save some for later. Seriously, Dalinar as a source of infinite stormlight cannot be overrated. Jasnah didn't need to worry about her plate breaking, because it would simply repair itself. Ancient radiants? How many battles do you have to fight in between storms? Run out of stormlight? Too bad. The fused didn't run out of voidlight. Now you have to fight them with only the heralds as surgebinders. And plate probably takes a huge amount of stormlight to repair. After the disaster at the Tower in tWoK, over 1,000 soldiers in Dalinar's army gave their spheres to repair Dalinar's armor, and it was still missing pieces. Now, radiant plate is obviously more efficient, and quicker, but I'm guessing that repairing it takes a massive amount of stormlight.

Other bondsmiths could make Stormlight

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

[cometaryorbit]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Sure, she would have been more effective using her powers to their fullest, but why didn't she? Because they would have swarmed her immediately. Additionally, she had access to tons of stormlight, without worry of using it all up or needing to save some for later. Seriously, Dalinar as a source of infinite stormlight cannot be overrated. Jasnah didn't need to worry about her plate breaking, because it would simply repair itself. Ancient radiants? How many battles do you have to fight in between storms? Run out of stormlight? Too bad. The fused didn't run out of voidlight. Now you have to fight them with only the heralds as surgebinders.

Ivory's "play soldier" comment does seem to imply that she is doing it for not entirely rational reasons.

I think ancient Bondsmiths could do the Stormlight recharge thing too. Though obviously smaller scale battles without a Bondsmith present would be different. (And perhaps that's a large part of how the Fused fought - attacking "normal" human populations in various places to force Radiants like the Windrunners and Edgedancers to go all over the place to protect them. If there are only two or three Bondsmiths and fighting is happening in a ton of places, not all the battles could have a Bondsmith present.

That is, however, why I actually think the Radiants would have a greater advantage in a less technological, smaller population world - fewer "fixed targets" to have to defend, and Radiant population is limited by spren.)

[Kandrafish]

21 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ivory's "play soldier" comment does seem to imply that she is doing it for not entirely rational reasons.

I think ancient Bondsmiths could do the Stormlight recharge thing too. Though obviously smaller scale battles without a Bondsmith present would be different. (And perhaps that's a large part of how the Fused fought - attacking "normal" human populations in various places to force Radiants like the Windrunners and Edgedancers to go all over the place to protect them. If there are only two or three Bondsmiths and fighting is happening in a ton of places, not all the battles could have a Bondsmith present.

That is, however, why I actually think the Radiants would have a greater advantage in a less technological, smaller population world - fewer "fixed targets" to have to defend, and Radiant population is limited by spren.)

That is a good point. In a smaller population world there would be fewer fixed big targets, but there would still be tons of small villages that could become battlefields. Additionally, without spanreeds, you need Windrunners and Skybreakers patrolling and acting as messengers and unless Urithiru had some massive treasury of gems that they didn't share to use for food and such, a lower population means less gem harvesting capabilities and less "batteries" for Radiants to use to patrol.

Additionally, the Radiant population is limited by spren and worthy humans. The higher oaths are serious. Finding people worthy in a smaller population could be harder. We know that highspren won't bond just anyone. And we know that a lot of other orders can have people get stuck in the early oaths and stay there.

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

He has the skills, but fighting someone in full regenerating shardplate with a shapeshifting blade that cuts through anything (disregarding other powers) head on is pretty stupid when all you can do is teleport. You move around them, disorient them, make them constantly watch for you out of the corner of their eye, until finally you wear them down enough to kill them. His powerset is perfect for "pursuing" people, and that's where his skills lie. Not in fighting on a battlefield, but in hunting his prey, constantly harrying them, until he eventually wears them down or finds them in a moment of weakness.

The wording implies one more fused, not multiple.

She was almost immediately beaten by the first fused she fought, and only survived because she took him by surprise with her powers. Sure, she would have been more effective using her powers to their fullest, but why didn't she? Because they would have swarmed her immediately. Additionally, she had access to tons of stormlight, without worry of using it all up or needing to save some for later. Seriously, Dalinar as a source of infinite stormlight cannot be overrated. Jasnah didn't need to worry about her plate breaking, because it would simply repair itself. Ancient radiants? How many battles do you have to fight in between storms? Run out of stormlight? Too bad. The fused didn't run out of voidlight. Now you have to fight them with only the heralds as surgebinders. And plate probably takes a huge amount of stormlight to repair. After the disaster at the Tower in tWoK, over 1,000 soldiers in Dalinar's army gave their spheres to repair Dalinar's armor, and it was still missing pieces. Now, radiant plate is obviously more efficient, and quicker, but I'm guessing that repairing it takes a massive amount of stormlight.

I highly recommend you reread the whole scene. It covers in detail everything you bring up. Jasnah was limiting herself because she wanted to try and feel like a soldier. That her powers made it feel like she had an unfair advantage against the fused. Hoid had to talk to her and convince her how in battle it will never be fair and on equal footing. Had to convince her to use her powers. Dalinar was not present with her to renew her stormlight and she specifically mentioned how she wanted to ration her stormlight so as not to be dependant on him. She mentions using stormlight to heal her eye and how her armor used stormlight to heal itself. She also didn't want to reveal who she was because she was concerned she would be targeted above all else because she is the queen. She was concerned her identity as queen would be revealed because she is one of the few radiants with armor. So they would deduce it had to be her. The chapter starts at page 751. Give it a reread. I figure copy pasting the whole chapter here would be a bit much

Edited February 3, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Other bondsmiths could make Stormlight

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Bondsmiths in the past have used that power. Like Ishar? he's a bondsmith, and used his powers in the past, before Dalinar did. The Stormfather was surprised when Dalinar refueled spheres, implying that it wasn't a power that traditional bondsmiths had. So at most a bondsmith could refuel individual radiants, not enough to keep an army supplied.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I highly recommend you reread the whole scene. It covers in detail everything you bring up. Jasnah was limiting herself because she wanted to try and feel like a soldier. That her powers made it feel like she had an unfair advantage against the fused. Hoid had to talk to her and convince her how in battle it will never be fair and on equal footing. Had to convince her to use her powers. Dalinar was not present with her to renew her stormlight and she specifically mentioned how she wanted to ration her stormlight so as not to be dependant on him. She mentions using stormlight to heal her eye and how her armor used stormlight to heal itself. She also didn't want to reveal who she was because she was concerned she would be targeted above all else because she is the queen. She was concerned her identity as queen would be revealed because she is one of the few radiants with armor. So they would deduce it had to be her. The chapter starts at page 751. Give it a reread. I figure copy pasting the whole chapter here would be a bit much

I am aware of all of this. Jasnah didn't use her powers because she wanted to get a genuine feel for battle, because it would give her an unfair advantage over the regular soldiers and shardbearers. Not because it would make fighting the fused "too easy". When she beat the fused we saw her fight, she did so only because she took him by surprise with her powers. That's why she was upset. When she talked to Wit, she even outright said that she was less unstoppable than she thought she would be.

You are correct that Dalinar wasn't present to renew her spheres, but he was present to renew the spheres after the battle. Meaning she had stormlight to begin with. In older times, radiants did not have that luxury. They would have had to ration stormlight constantly. Jasnah was almost out of stormlight after two hours of fighting. That's a fourth ideal radiant, focused on using her powers as little as possible. How much stormlight do you think a windrunner squire would take, constantly flying for hours? Do you think that any army could afford to supply potentially thousands of squires, through multiple battles, for a week or more, without any hope of resupply before the storm?

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You are correct that Dalinar wasn't present to renew her spheres, but he was present to renew the spheres after the battle. Meaning she had stormlight to begin with. In older times, radiants did not have that luxury. They would have had to ration stormlight constantly. Jasnah was almost out of stormlight after two hours of fighting. That's a fourth ideal radiant, focused on using her powers as little as possible. How much stormlight do you think a windrunner squire would take, constantly flying for hours? Do you think that any army could afford to supply potentially thousands of squires, through multiple battles, for a week or more, without any hope of resupply before the storm?

When just about every creature on the planet grows gemhearts, when your enemy grows gemhearts, and a highstorm comes every week to renew all spheres the problem isn't running out it's not using it as effiecently as you would like.

Edit: additionally radiants can but stormlight into spheres, and Heralds had infinate, so anywhere from 10-13 individuals have infinate light that they can share with anyone else.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Frustration

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Bondsmiths in the past have used that power. Like Ishar? he's a bondsmith, and used his powers in the past, before Dalinar did. The Stormfather was surprised when Dalinar refueled spheres, implying that it wasn't a power that traditional bondsmiths had. So at most a bondsmith could refuel individual radiants, not enough to keep an army supplied.

I am aware of all of this. Jasnah didn't use her powers because she wanted to get a genuine feel for battle, because it would give her an unfair advantage over the regular soldiers and shardbearers. Not because it would make fighting the fused "too easy". When she beat the fused we saw her fight, she did so only because she took him by surprise with her powers. That's why she was upset. When she talked to Wit, she even outright said that she was less unstoppable than she thought she would be.

I feel you are taking that comment out of context. She said she was less unstoppable as a general shardbearer, not as a radiant. She then continues to say with her powers it would not have been a fair fight. As in, in order for her to consider it a fair fight with the fused, she had to handicap herself by not using her powers, resist healing as quickly, and summoning her blade so fast. Some she could not change and thereby labeled them as unfortunate concessions.  To which Wit replies a fight is never fair. I have included the excerpt below for reference:

 

Other soldiers came in at Jasnah and began ramming thin pikes through her faceplate. One pierced her eye, making her scream. Stormlight healed her though, and her helm sealed the slit to prevent further attacks. With Stormlight, she didn’t need it to breathe anyway. But this, like her quick summoning of her Blade, was a concession. It risked revealing what she was.

 

“I’m not the unstoppable force I imagined myself to be,” she said. “They know how to deal with Shardbearers; I couldn’t bring down a Fused in a fair fight.”

“There are no fair fights, Jasnah,” Wit said. “There’s never been such a thing. The term is a lie used to impose imaginary order on something chaotic. Two men of the same height, age, and weapon will not fight one another fairly, for one will always have the advantage in training, talent, or simple luck.”

She grunted. Dalinar wouldn’t think much of that statement.

“I know you feel you need to show the soldiers you can fight,” Wit said softly. “Prove to them, maybe to yourself, that you are as capable on a battlefield as Dalinar is becoming with a book. This is good, it breaks down barriers—and there will be those wrongheaded men who would not follow you otherwise. But take care, Jasnah. Talented or not, you cannot conjure for yourself a lifetime of experienced butchery through force of will. There is no shame in using the powers you have developed. It is not unfair—or rather, it is no more unfair when the most skilled swordsman on the battlefield falls to a stray arrow. Use what you have.”

 

Quote

You are correct that Dalinar wasn't present to renew her spheres, but he was present to renew the spheres after the battle. Meaning she had stormlight to begin with. In older times, radiants did not have that luxury. They would have had to ration stormlight constantly. Jasnah was almost out of stormlight after two hours of fighting. That's a fourth ideal radiant, focused on using her powers as little as possible. How much stormlight do you think a windrunner squire would take, constantly flying for hours? Do you think that any army could afford to supply potentially thousands of squires, through multiple battles, for a week or more, without any hope of resupply before the storm?

She had stormlight at the start of the battle. I wasn't disputing that. Also to clarify, the reason I ring in is because I feel you are misrepresenting the capabilities of other orders being able to fight a fused versus windrunners. A lightweaver has abilities that could enable it to fight lezian just like any other order. If you limit the combatants to purely physical attacks and no powers, then yes I could see kaladin being better off than the others (except for dalinar). But all radiants can hold their own in different ways. And as we can see, certainly can jasnah

Edited February 3, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When just about every creature on the planet grows gemhearts, when your enemy grows gemhearts, and a highstorm comes every week to renew all spheres the problem isn't running out it's not using it as effiecently as you would like.

Edit: additionally radiants can but stormlight into spheres, and Heralds had infinate, so anywhere from 10-13 individuals have infinate light that they can share with anyone else.

Say a third ideal radiant needs three pouches of spheres for every hour they fight. Now say you have 5,000 third ideal radiants. Well, now you need 15,000 sphere pouches every hour you fight. Say every pouch has a dozen or two broam-sized gemstones in it. So you need over 150,000 broams per hour of combat. Sure, you have a couple people that might be able to put stormlight into spheres, but... you know how slow that is? We haven't seen a single instance in which a radiant put stormlight into more than one sphere at the same time. So say you can fill 1 sphere per second. Well, if you do that for an hour, you have 3,600 spheres filled. If all ten of the heralds do that, you have 36,000 spheres filled per hour. And the heralds are the most important asset of humankind. They would be so much more valuable fighting on the front lines, training radiants in their powers, or doing basically anything besides sitting in a room refilling spheres.

150,000 broams of stormlight per hour might even be a conservative estimate. Kaladin a third, nearly fourth ideal radiant, had four pouches of stormlight on him in Hearthstone, and he went through almost all of them in his flight to hearthstone and fight with the pursuer. Of course, we don't know how many spheres he had in each pouch, but at least a tenset seems a good estimate.

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I feel you are taking that comment out of context. She said she was less unstoppable as a general shardbearer, not as a radiant. She then continues to say with her powers it would not have been a fair fight. To which Wit replies a fight is never fair. I have included the excerpt below for reference:

Jasnah couldn't beat them without her powers, but she also couldn't beat them in a fair fight. She only killed the fused that she did by 1. using her powers at an unexpected time and 2. killing him before he recovered from the shock of everything suddenly catching on fire. So yeah, she was upset that she couldn't beat them without her powers, but she also had to take them by surprise with her powers. That fused could have fought much more effectively if he'd been expecting her to use soulcasting.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She had stormlight at the start of the battle. I wasn't disputing that. Also to clarify, the reason I ring in is because I feel you are misrepresenting the capabilities of other orders being able to fight a fused versus windrunners. A lightweaver has abilities that could enable it to fight lezian just like any other order. If you limit the combatants to purely physical attacks and no powers, then yes I could see kaladin being better off than the others (except for dalinar). But all radiants can hold their own in different ways. And as we can see, certainly can jasnah

A lightweaver does have abilities that would work in combat, Shallan in OB proved that. I'm not disputing that the orders can all fight well. But Jasnah's soulcasting surprise attack would only work once against the pursuer. Yes she could fight, but Lezian is among the most skilled of the fused, and Jasnah only beat a normal fused with a surprise attack using her powers. None of the radiants besides Dalinar, Szeth, and Kaladin have the combination of skill and powers to beat Lezian for a second time. Other radiants could hold their own, but kill the pursuer? scare him? Force him into a confrontation where retreat is not an option?

[Frustration]

50 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Say a third ideal radiant needs three pouches of spheres for every hour they fight. Now say you have 5,000 third ideal radiants. Well, now you need 15,000 sphere pouches every hour you fight. Say every pouch has a dozen or two broam-sized gemstones in it. So you need over 150,000 broams per hour of combat. Sure, you have a couple people that might be able to put stormlight into spheres, but... you know how slow that is? We haven't seen a single instance in which a radiant put stormlight into more than one sphere at the same time. So say you can fill 1 sphere per second. Well, if you do that for an hour, you have 3,600 spheres filled. If all ten of the heralds do that, you have 36,000 spheres filled per hour. And the heralds are the most important asset of humankind. They would be so much more valuable fighting on the front lines, training radiants in their powers, or doing basically anything besides sitting in a room refilling spheres.

150,000 broams of stormlight per hour might even be a conservative estimate. Kaladin a third, nearly fourth ideal radiant, had four pouches of stormlight on him in Hearthstone, and he went through almost all of them in his flight to hearthstone and fight with the pursuer. Of course, we don't know how many spheres he had in each pouch, but at least a tenset seems a good estimate.

The sibling can also make infinate light, once Lifelight has been removed it's just stormlight.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

The sibling can also make infinate light, once Lifelight has been removed it's just stormlight.

And... how do you propose they do that? They didn't know how to combine lights, so why would they be able to split them?

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And... how do you propose they do that? They didn't know how to combine lights, so why would they be able to split them?

That's a good point.

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Jasnah couldn't beat them without her powers, but she also couldn't beat them in a fair fight. She only killed the fused that she did by 1. using her powers at an unexpected time and 2. killing him before he recovered from the shock of everything suddenly catching on fire. So yeah, she was upset that she couldn't beat them without her powers, but she also had to take them by surprise with her powers. That fused could have fought much more effectively if he'd been expecting her to use soulcasting.

At this point we are starting to talk past each other. It is pretty clear to me from that chapter, that jasnah considered "fighting fair" was purely physical. Hence the comparison to Dalinar fighting. She felt using her powers would give her an unfair advantage. Which is why Wit said fighting is never fair. You use what you got. 

Literally he made the example of the most skilled swordsman in the world dying from a stray arrow. Doesn't matter how good that swordsman is. The arrow still negated all that skill.

Anyone knowing what to expect is going to be in an advantageous position. That's Batman's entire "power". He prepares for everything. 

And Jasnah clearly indicates that she could have dispatched the fused far easier using her powers, but she chose not to for the reasons already given multiple times.

 

Edit: it is even stated later between Wit and jasnah in the chapter that old style battle (formed up battalions) may become obsolete once someone can just blow-up a whole area.

There are counters for everything. I am not arguing that the Fused lacked anyway to fight radiants. 

I am saying that all the radiant orders had ways to fight too. Not just windrunners and not just magical kaladin as you are painting him.

Quote

A lightweaver does have abilities that would work in combat, Shallan in OB proved that. I'm not disputing that the orders can all fight well. But Jasnah's soulcasting surprise attack would only work once against the pursuer. Yes she could fight, but Lezian is among the most skilled of the fused, and Jasnah only beat a normal fused with a surprise attack using her powers. None of the radiants besides Dalinar, Szeth, and Kaladin have the combination of skill and powers to beat Lezian for a second time. Other radiants could hold their own, but kill the pursuer? scare him? Force him into a confrontation where retreat is not an option?

You are forgetting that elsecallers, willshapers,  and lightweavers can peer into the cognitive realm anytime they want. Lezian would have greater trouble getting the drop on those orders. 

Do we know what would happen to lezian if while he was a red spark, aluminum was soulcast around him?

Or what if the elsecaller just blew up the entire area the moment lezian appears like jasnah did?

Or soulcasts the broken spurs to air so nothing to stab with?

Or what if a lightweaver sets up an ambush for lezian? Has an illusion hanging out with a boulder near by. Lezian teleports in, illusions fuzzed, shardblade swipes out from the illusory Boulder. 

Or what if the lightweaver can make physical illusions, and has spikes of light shoot out from its back spearing him and shattering his gemstone?

Or what if the willshaper teleports with him all three times till he runs out and then teleports him into solid rock so he cannot breathe and dies.

 

Further it is made pretty clearly in the novel by leshwi that lezians deal is:

1. Someone kills lezian

2. Lezian then makes it his life's mission to kill that person 

3. Lezian dies over and over till he wins, killing that person

4. If the desolation is almost over, he kills himself so no one has a chance to kill him before he can no longer come back 

 

He basically artificially inflates his kill count by disregarding how many times he had to die to accomplish it. Leshwi says so herself. 

 

I am beginning to feel like you have protagonistitis. There is nothing Kaladin can't do and no one else can compare. 

I may stop contributing because I don't really see this discourse going anywhere.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Pathfinder

[+Bzhydack]

Also, why we assume there always was a Stormfather Bondsmith? We know always was one, and always stays in Urithiru, so we can assume that was the Sibling Bondsmith. If during some Desolations was no Stormfather Bondsmith, or he died during it (not neceserly by enemys hand) it would be time without him, so without Stormlight between Highstorms.

Also, separating Lights is new thing, they didnt know about this before.

[NameIess]

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

At this point we are starting to talk past each other. It is pretty clear to me from that chapter, that jasnah considered "fighting fair" was purely physical. Hence the comparison to Dalinar fighting. She felt using her powers would give her an unfair advantage. Which is why Wit said fighting is never fair. You use what you got. 

Literally he made the example of the most skilled swordsman in the world dying from a stray arrow. Doesn't matter how good that swordsman is. The arrow still negated all that skill.

Anyone knowing what to expect is going to be in an advantageous position. That's Batman's entire "power". He prepares for everything. 

And Jasnah clearly indicates that she could have dispatched the fused far easier using her powers, but she chose not to for the reasons already given multiple times.

 

Edit: it is even stated later between Wit and jasnah in the chapter that old style battle (formed up battalions) may become obsolete once someone can just blow-up a whole area.

There are counters for everything. I am not arguing that the Fused lacked anyway to fight radiants. 

I am saying that all the radiant orders had ways to fight too. Not just windrunners and not just magical kaladin as you are painting him.

Okay. Let me make some things clear. First off, I agree that every radiant order can fight. While some are more suited than others to fighting, they can all fight.

Second, Jasnah considered the way that she beat the fused to be unfair. She was disappointed that she couldn't beat the fused without resorting to using her powers. I agree with this. However, I also believe that the fused would have put up a much better fight if he had known about her soulcasting abilities before fighting her. I'm not saying Jasnah would have lost, merely that it would have been a more prolonged battle.

44 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are forgetting that elsecallers, willshapers,  and lightweavers can peer into the cognitive realm anytime they want. Lezian would have greater trouble getting the drop on those orders. 

Do we know what would happen to lezian if while he was a red spark, aluminum was soulcast around him?

Or what if the elsecaller just blew up the entire area the moment lezian appears like jasnah did?

Or soulcasts the broken spurs to air so nothing to stab with?

Or what if a lightweaver sets up an ambush for lezian? Has an illusion hanging out with a boulder near by. Lezian teleports in, illusions fuzzed, shardblade swipes out from the illusory Boulder. 

Or what if the lightweaver can make physical illusions, and has spikes of light shoot out from its back spearing him and shattering his gemstone?

Or what if the willshaper teleports with him all three times till he runs out and then teleports him into solid rock so he cannot breathe and dies.

 

I am beginning to feel like you have protagonistitis. There is nothing Kaladin can't do and no one else can compare. 

I may stop contributing because I don't really see this discourse going anywhere.

I am not forgetting that radiants can see into the cognitive realm.

1. We don't know what would happen if aluminum was soulcast around him. However, we have also never seen aluminum be soulcast, and it seems to be very difficult to do so, otherwise Jasnah would spam aluminum around all the fused she fought. She didn't even try to do so when Dalinar first opened the perpedicularity.

2. Elsecallers can't blow up areas until they discover C4, Jasnah merely caught everything on fire. Lezian would survive this even if he was caught in it, and, since he is careful when humans try to fight him (If they've killed him before), would likely just teleport away before it worked.

3. He is very good at hand-to-hand combat. Plus most radiants are far less proficient at soulcasting than Jasnah, so doing that in a pinch would be very difficult.

4. Ambushing Lezian while he is in hunting mode might work, but again, he can teleport, and heal from shardblade wounds. Hitting him in the gemheart before he notices you would be very difficult.

5. I don't think that's a traditional lightweaver power. Maybe they could do that, but he could still teleport out of the way.

6. We don't know what willshaper teleportation looks like. If he's anything like the other fused, Lezian's surge will manifest differently from the radiant's.

I'm not saying anything that the books themselves don't say. The Pursuer went seven thousand years without being killed twice. No one had ever killed him twice. That means that either all the radiants were pathetic in those days, or Kaladin is special. And, given all the stuff we've seen Kaladin do in the books, I'd say it's the latter. (Of course, Lezian's deteriorating mental state probably had something to do with it as well. He was less careful, and his dedication to his reputation approached insanity.) I suspect that Kaladin has something weird going on due to Honor's death. He's far more connected to Honor than most people, and that might be making his bond abnormally strong or giving him the "wind sense" that he sometimes has.

That said, I'm not saying that no one else can compare to Kaladin. Szeth would be able to win against Lezian, particularly with Nightblood. A lot of radiants would be able to win against Lezian, but the problem is that he just keeps coming. His reputation is that of a personification of death, a relentless predator that will get to you eventually. He's not unbeatable short term, but in the long term he had never lost. Even after Kaladin beat him, Lezian would have come back to fight him again, trying forever until he won. Fortunately for Kaladin, anti-voidlight made winning for a third time unnecessary.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

3. He is very good at hand-to-hand combat. Plus most radiants are far less proficient at soulcasting than Jasnah, so doing that in a pinch would be very difficult.

Most lightweavers are less proficent, she's the only Elsecaller we've seen.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Most lightweavers are less proficent, she's the only Elsecaller we've seen.

Good point. However, I'm inclined to think jasnah is an exemplary Elsecaller, given Ivory's like of her and the fact that she's the only human able to convince an Inkspren to bond her.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Okay. Let me make some things clear. First off, I agree that every radiant order can fight. While some are more suited than others to fighting, they can all fight.

Second, Jasnah considered the way that she beat the fused to be unfair. She was disappointed that she couldn't beat the fused without resorting to using her powers. I agree with this. However, I also believe that the fused would have put up a much better fight if he had known about her soulcasting abilities before fighting her. I'm not saying Jasnah would have lost, merely that it would have been a more prolonged battle.

The impression that I got from you earlier is that Jasnah could barely beat the fused. Which is why I explained she had handicapped herself in that situation.

Perfect hindsight is 20/20. If the progression fused knew he was going to face an elsecaller, then he would have outnumbered her, and probably had forces waiting in the cognitive realm to ambush her. If Jasnah knew more about the progression fused, she probably would have things in place to counter what he could do. 

That doesn't say anything about the individual's strengths and skills. It just shows who has more knowledge and resources to draw on in that situation. Hence the comment about the skilled swordsman getting taken out by a stray arrow.

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I am not forgetting that radiants can see into the cognitive realm.

1. We don't know what would happen if aluminum was soulcast around him. However, we have also never seen aluminum be soulcast, and it seems to be very difficult to do so, otherwise Jasnah would spam aluminum around all the fused she fought. She didn't even try to do so when Dalinar first opened the perpedicularity.

Although Roshar does have aluminum, they do not know what it is nor how it works with investiture. When Hoid provided the sheets to hide the soulcasting from the screamers, they did not know what the "strange metal" was. Since then Hoid could have explained it to Jasnah. Ancient radiants could have had extensive knowledge of aluminum. 

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2. Elsecallers can't blow up areas until they discover C4, Jasnah merely caught everything on fire. Lezian would survive this even if he was caught in it, and, since he is careful when humans try to fight him (If they've killed him before), would likely just teleport away before it worked.

What happens if you leave the gas on in your house and then it all ignites at once? Boom. it is described as explosive. It stunned the fused long enough for Jasnah to ram her blade through its chest, breaking its gemstone.

So basically the elsecaller survived the first encounter like Kaladin did, resulting in Lezian retreating. The elsecaller now knows what to expect. And as far as we know, the elsecaller could follow his teleporting or through the cognitive realm. He has a limit of three jumps, with the last resulting in him running out. Kaladin could not pursue, but an elsecaller potentially could. 

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3. He is very good at hand-to-hand combat. Plus most radiants are far less proficient at soulcasting than Jasnah, so doing that in a pinch would be very difficult.

All elsecallers are good at soulcasting. WoB below:

 

Questioner

Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. 

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

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4. Ambushing Lezian while he is in hunting mode might work, but again, he can teleport, and heal from shardblade wounds. Hitting him in the gemheart before he notices you would be very difficult.

Sneak attack, take your time to line up blade, and drive it through. Blade goes through anything, and once it hits the gemheart, crack done. 

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5. I don't think that's a traditional lightweaver power. Maybe they could do that, but he could still teleport out of the way.

It is hinted though not confirmed. Jasnah assumed that was what Shallan had been doing, that she was making illusions illusions physical. All those spikes shooting out, one of them is bound to pierce the gemheart. 

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6. We don't know what willshaper teleportation looks like. If he's anything like the other fused, Lezian's surge will manifest differently from the radiant's.

We know that windrunners can go faster, and more dramatic effects over the short term, while the heavenly ones have to build up speed but are more maneuverable. I think a willshaper could watch where lezian goes via peering into the cognitive realm, and piggy back on him. 

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I'm not saying anything that the books themselves don't say. The Pursuer went seven thousand years without being killed twice. No one had ever killed him twice. That means that either all the radiants were pathetic in those days, or Kaladin is special. And, given all the stuff we've seen Kaladin do in the books, I'd say it's the latter. (Of course, Lezian's deteriorating mental state probably had something to do with it as well. He was less careful, and his dedication to his reputation approached insanity.) I suspect that Kaladin has something weird going on due to Honor's death. He's far more connected to Honor than most people, and that might be making his bond abnormally strong or giving him the "wind sense" that he sometimes has.

So I did a search in the book for "second" and I can't find anywhere where it says that he has not been killed twice for seven thousand years by the same person. He was certainly very very upset about this, and it is mentioned his mythos took a hit in how he was killed in front of everyone. But I can't seem to find it saying he has not been killed twice by the same person in seven thousand years. If you can find it, please reference, because I do want to see it. Not being snarky, I genuinely cannot find it. 

 

Edit: found it! Ironically enough it was me writing "twice", that made me think to search by the word "twice".

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That said, I'm not saying that no one else can compare to Kaladin. Szeth would be able to win against Lezian, particularly with Nightblood. A lot of radiants would be able to win against Lezian, but the problem is that he just keeps coming. His reputation is that of a personification of death, a relentless predator that will get to you eventually. He's not unbeatable short term, but in the long term he had never lost. Even after Kaladin beat him, Lezian would have come back to fight him again, trying forever until he won. Fortunately for Kaladin, anti-voidlight made winning for a third time unnecessary.

I do not disagree with that. Flip a coin long enough and invariably you will come up heads. Not saying Lezian killing is pure luck. Not at all. Just I agree, his "fearsome" reputation is more due to him continually focusing on one person to the exclusion of all else, than necessarily a success rate. Otherwise why kill himself before the desolation comes to an end for fear of someone getting in the last hit on him?

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

The impression that I got from you earlier is that Jasnah could barely beat the fused. Which is why I explained she had handicapped herself in that situation.

Perfect hindsight is 20/20. If the progression fused knew he was going to face an elsecaller, then he would have outnumbered her, and probably had forces waiting in the cognitive realm to ambush her. If Jasnah knew more about the progression fused, she probably would have things in place to counter what he could do. 

That doesn't say anything about the individual's strengths and skills. It just shows who has more knowledge and resources to draw on in that situation. Hence the comment about the skilled swordsman getting taken out by a stray arrow.

The fused wouldn't have bothered to do all that against a regular elscecaller. He might have done that if he knew it was Jasnah, queen of Alethkar and only fourth ideal radiant in Dalinar's coalition, but against a normal elsecaller, no need. Jasnah knew everything about progression fused. That's her thing. She reads and studies about everything. She definitely read battle reports on all the known fused varieties before going into battle.

That said, the fused had an undeniable skill advantage over Jasnah. Her powers did allow her to pull out the win, particularly but against a normal fused, probably about average in skill, Jasnah won by taking him by surprise. She didn't immediately overwhelm him with her powers, and she got absolutely bodied in the skill department. Against the Pursuer, you only get the luxury of surprising him with your powers once. Then he gets a lot more careful. And given how long he's lived, he has to have strategies for taking on at least nine of the radiant orders. (Probably not Bondsmiths though)

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not disagree with that. Flip a coin long enough and invariably you will come up heads. Not saying Lezian killing is pure luck. Not at all. Just I agree, his "fearsome" reputation is more due to him continually focusing on one person to the exclusion of all else, than necessarily a success rate. Otherwise why kill himself before the desolation comes to an end for fear of someone getting in the last hit on him?

Well, he would eventually be killed by someone after the desolation ended. He does die, he just doesn't die twice. like I said, I'm not saying that he's unbeatable, just that when he's being careful, he's almost impossible to kill. He can just teleport away if he needs to retreat, then try to kill you again later. So, yeah he's skilled, very skilled, but most of his reputation came from his persistence. And most radiants would either have been forced to run or hide from him (Shallan, Lift, probably Jasnah) or wouldn't have been able to fight him off again and again and again for their entire lives. Or at least they didn't have a reputation that would let them make the Pursuer, and everyone else, think they could do so.

[Kandrafish]

13 hours ago, Nameless said:

Okay. Let me make some things clear. First off, I agree that every radiant order can fight. While some are more suited than others to fighting, they can all fight.

Second, Jasnah considered the way that she beat the fused to be unfair. She was disappointed that she couldn't beat the fused without resorting to using her powers. I agree with this. However, I also believe that the fused would have put up a much better fight if he had known about her soulcasting abilities before fighting her. I'm not saying Jasnah would have lost, merely that it would have been a more prolonged battle.

I am not forgetting that radiants can see into the cognitive realm.

1. We don't know what would happen if aluminum was soulcast around him. However, we have also never seen aluminum be soulcast, and it seems to be very difficult to do so, otherwise Jasnah would spam aluminum around all the fused she fought. She didn't even try to do so when Dalinar first opened the perpedicularity.

2. Elsecallers can't blow up areas until they discover C4, Jasnah merely caught everything on fire. Lezian would survive this even if he was caught in it, and, since he is careful when humans try to fight him (If they've killed him before), would likely just teleport away before it worked.

3. He is very good at hand-to-hand combat. Plus most radiants are far less proficient at soulcasting than Jasnah, so doing that in a pinch would be very difficult.

4. Ambushing Lezian while he is in hunting mode might work, but again, he can teleport, and heal from shardblade wounds. Hitting him in the gemheart before he notices you would be very difficult.

5. I don't think that's a traditional lightweaver power. Maybe they could do that, but he could still teleport out of the way.

6. We don't know what willshaper teleportation looks like. If he's anything like the other fused, Lezian's surge will manifest differently from the radiant's.

I'm not saying anything that the books themselves don't say. The Pursuer went seven thousand years without being killed twice. No one had ever killed him twice. That means that either all the radiants were pathetic in those days, or Kaladin is special. And, given all the stuff we've seen Kaladin do in the books, I'd say it's the latter. (Of course, Lezian's deteriorating mental state probably had something to do with it as well. He was less careful, and his dedication to his reputation approached insanity.) I suspect that Kaladin has something weird going on due to Honor's death. He's far more connected to Honor than most people, and that might be making his bond abnormally strong or giving him the "wind sense" that he sometimes has.

That said, I'm not saying that no one else can compare to Kaladin. Szeth would be able to win against Lezian, particularly with Nightblood. A lot of radiants would be able to win against Lezian, but the problem is that he just keeps coming. His reputation is that of a personification of death, a relentless predator that will get to you eventually. He's not unbeatable short term, but in the long term he had never lost. Even after Kaladin beat him, Lezian would have come back to fight him again, trying forever until he won. Fortunately for Kaladin, anti-voidlight made winning for a third time unnecessary.

I like all of these overpowered Radiant tactics and I think that they could have been extremely effective in battle. I can only assume that there are some equally, or similarly good fused tactics like the Persuer's break the spine over and over again tactic.

Now, suppose you live forever and pick up a couple hundred or thousand overpowered way to use your magic and you have the muscle memory to do it.

I am going to weigh in and say that that seems like a pretty awesome fused advantage. And they probably also have tactics for recruiting human mercenaries and inciting riots. There are lots of really creative ways for the fused to mess with the Radiants.

Now, the Radiants are inevitably going to lose info over generations and if libraries are destroyed or things are not recorded properly.

 

Once again, I want raise the idea that the fact that all of the fused have the experience and knowledge of thousands of years means that they should have an upper hand tactically.

A mitigating factor for this Return is the massive technological advancements that happened over 4500 years and the very different and large and varied population.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Once again, I want raise the idea that the fact that all of the fused have the experience and knowledge of thousands of years means that they should have an upper hand tactically.

Heralds live just as long. And so do Spren, and spren don't go insane because of it.

[HSuperLee]

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Heralds live just as long. And so do Spren, and spren don't go insane because of it.

To be fair, it could be argued that a spren's default condition is a form of insanity. Yes, that's a very human-centric way of looking at it, and thus not very fair when talking about non-humans. But the spren are very unchanging plus being neurotic and obsessive towards their specific ideal. If anything, this seems to be why they value bonds so much, those bonds make them more "stable" and more "complete."

All that aside though, I guess I thought that radiants burned stormlight way faster than y'all seem to think. Here I thought a pouch of broams only provided a few minutes of gravitation flight. It was my understanding that unless they're traveling with a bondsmith, the best way for a windrunner or skybreaker to achieve long distance flight was to Oathgate to Narak and then ride the Highstorm to wherever they're trying to go. Now, yes, other surges seem to use less stormlight, but it seems that the most dramatic effect, soulcasting, flight, growing plants, and likely dividing all consume stormlight at a massive rate. With that in mind, even talking about having the bondsmiths and Heralds able to refill stormlight doesn't equate to infinite stormlight. I better way to say it is just that they provide refillable stormlight. I guess a good analogy would be driving across the US. The fact that there are gas stations that you can stop at to refill your tank doesn't mean you can necessarily be reckless with your driving since there's no possibility of running out. When you get to some of the long stretched, there's very much that possibility if you don't plan things out and pay attention. Now, Dalinar's ability to open a perpendicularity cannot be understated as a strategic advantage, because it gives him the ability to infuse a massive number of radiants and gemstones at once, whereas it seems the bondsmiths' "standard" infusion ability is limited to one or two targets that they can touch, which puts a huge bottlecap on the rate they can renew stormlight.

That to me always seemed like the biggest balancing factor between the radiants and the fused. The fused can apparently refill their own voidlight by appealing to Odium and it lasts so much longer than stormlight does. Now, all that said, it has been mentioned that the fused did lose every single desolation. Odium was really counting on the war of attrition, which probably was a really bad idea considering the deterioration of the fused. The radiants are, when all is said and done, much more powerful than the fused. From a writing perspective that does kind of annoy me, but that's how it seems to be. I do believe that had the cycle of desolations continued, humanity would have eventually won. Though it probably would have taken a really really long time, since it would require reducing the Singer population to an unsustainable level. But in the end they could probably do it, even without the Heralds help. But that's a massive discussion that ultimately devolves into the unknowable.   

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, Nameless said:

The fused wouldn't have bothered to do all that against a regular elscecaller. He might have done that if he knew it was Jasnah, queen of Alethkar and only fourth ideal radiant in Dalinar's coalition, but against a normal elsecaller, no need. Jasnah knew everything about progression fused. That's her thing. She reads and studies about everything. She definitely read battle reports on all the known fused varieties before going into battle.

That said, the fused had an undeniable skill advantage over Jasnah. Her powers did allow her to pull out the win, particularly but against a normal fused, probably about average in skill, Jasnah won by taking him by surprise. She didn't immediately overwhelm him with her powers, and she got absolutely bodied in the skill department. Against the Pursuer, you only get the luxury of surprising him with your powers once. Then he gets a lot more careful. And given how long he's lived, he has to have strategies for taking on at least nine of the radiant orders. (Probably not Bondsmiths though)

See this is the issue we keep coming back to.

The scene referenced states clearly that Jasnah was surprised that they had systems in place to deal with a shardbearer. That her acting as a shardbearer using only physical attacks (armor and sword) was unable to keep up because she lacked the necessary martial training that Dalinar had for years. She was handicapping herself because she was not letting herself use her powers. That she felt using her powers would be a cheat. It is not that the only reason she beat the fused was because she surprised it. She found another fused later and was able to beat it. Jasnah felt using her powers gave her an unfair advantage against that fused. She also expected if they realized she was who she was (Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar) they would have focused on her to the exclusion of all else to overwhelm and bring her down. 

I feel like one moment you are saying that Jasnah struggles when fighting the fused, and the only reason she won was because she surprised it, then you say she can hold her own, but then you say again that the fused had an advantage over her. Elsecaller's strengths lie with their powers (transformation and transportation). Saying jasnah lacks skill to fight a fused because she is unable to best it through physical means only is like saying a fish fails because it cannot climb a tree. A fish excels at swimming. Judging it by its capability of climbing is an exercise in futility.

The skill of the fused is immaterial. If you know what you are fighting, you can prepare well in advance and set the encounter in your favor. There will never be a fair fight, and skill can mean nothing in battle. Hence the stray arrow comment. 

At this point we are definitely talking past each other. I am good. I wish you luck with your theories. 

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Well, he would eventually be killed by someone after the desolation ended. He does die, he just doesn't die twice. like I said, I'm not saying that he's unbeatable, just that when he's being careful, he's almost impossible to kill. He can just teleport away if he needs to retreat, then try to kill you again later. So, yeah he's skilled, very skilled, but most of his reputation came from his persistence. And most radiants would either have been forced to run or hide from him (Shallan, Lift, probably Jasnah) or wouldn't have been able to fight him off again and again and again for their entire lives. Or at least they didn't have a reputation that would let them make the Pursuer, and everyone else, think they could do so.

So he is never careful the first time, but super duper careful the second time? Every single time? He can only teleport three times. Then he needs more voidlight. There are a whole lot of assumptions being stated regarding the pursuer when we have Leshwi break it down for us.

But regardless, as I said, I feel we are talking past each other. So i am good. I wish you luck with your theories. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The scene referenced states clearly that Jasnah was surprised that they had systems in place to deal with a shardbearer. That her acting as a shardbearer using only physical attacks (armor and sword) was unable to keep up because she lacked the necessary martial training that Dalinar had for years. She was handicapping herself because she was not letting herself use her powers. That she felt using her powers would be a cheat. It is not that the only reason she beat the fused was because she surprised it. She found another fused later and was able to beat it. Jasnah felt using her powers gave her an unfair advantage against that fused. She also expected if they realized she was who she was (Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar) they would have focused on her to the exclusion of all else to overwhelm and bring her down. 

Jasnah wasn't surprised that they had systems in place to deal with a shardbearer, she was surprised that their systems were as effective as they were. I understand that Jasnah was handicapping herself. A small nitpick I have is that Jasnah didn't think using her powers gave her an unfair advantage over the fused, she thought using them gave her an unfair advantage over normal shardbearers.

That said, I feel that I may have been unclear on this before, so I'll clarify it here now. I do not believe that Jasnah could only beat the fused by taking him by surprise with her powers. All that I am saying is that the claim that if Jasnah used her powers, she would be completely unstoppable, is false. Jasnah using her powers, without the aid of surprise, likely would have beaten the fused, but the fight would likely not have ended the moment she used her powers. The fused would have reacted to her catching everything on fire, and would not have given her the opening he did. The fight would have progressed further, and in the end Jasnah would most likely have won. However, the fused would have had a chance to win, meaning that the reason that this thread was made (radiants of the fourth ideal seem too powerful for the fused to defeat) is not entirely true. That was my only intention in arguing this point.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So he is never careful the first time, but super duper careful the second time? Every single time? He can only teleport three times. Then he needs more voidlight. There are a whole lot of assumptions being stated regarding the pursuer when we have Leshwi break it down for us.

I wouldn't say that the Pursuer is never cautious the first time, but when we compare his first fight with Kaladin to his second fight, in the first he was always overconfident, particularly when Kaladin's powers where disabled, and in the second, despite Kaladin's powers being similarly disabled, Lezian fought extremely cautiously until Kaladin started running. Given that at this point, Lezian is starting to believe that he is truly unbeatable and is on the verge of insanity, he was likely even more cautious in the past. That said, my purpose was to agree with you, and to theorize as to why Lezian was able to keep from being killed twice in the thousands of years that he lived. Him simply retreating every time he is defeated or close to being defeated seems to me to be the most rational explanation for that fact. Kaladin was different from the radiants that were pursued in the past in that he forced Lezian to either fight him to the death or lose his reputation entirely. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Jasnah wasn't surprised that they had systems in place to deal with a shardbearer, she was surprised that their systems were as effective as they were. I understand that Jasnah was handicapping herself. A small nitpick I have is that Jasnah didn't think using her powers gave her an unfair advantage over the fused, she thought using them gave her an unfair advantage over normal shardbearers.

I mean I literally already quoted a line, where Jasnah specifically says it is because they had systems in place to deal with shardbearers. 

 

“I’m not the unstoppable force I imagined myself to be,” she said. “They know how to deal with Shardbearers; I couldn’t bring down a Fused in a fair fight.”

 

And again literally already quoted the line, where both Wit and Jasnah say it is her powers that make the fight with the fused unfair.

 

"I couldn't bring down a Fused in a fair fight."

“There are no fair fights, Jasnah,” Wit said. “There’s never been such a thing. The term is a lie used to impose imaginary order on something chaotic. Two men of the same height, age, and weapon will not fight one another fairly, for one will always have the advantage in training, talent, or simple luck.”

She grunted. Dalinar wouldn’t think much of that statement.

“I know you feel you need to show the soldiers you can fight,” Wit said softly. “Prove to them, maybe to yourself, that you are as capable on a battlefield as Dalinar is becoming with a book. This is good, it breaks down barriers—and there will be those wrongheaded men who would not follow you otherwise. But take care, Jasnah. Talented or not, you cannot conjure for yourself a lifetime of experienced butchery through force of will. There is no shame in using the powers you have developed. It is not unfair—or rather, it is no more unfair when the most skilled swordsman on the battlefield falls to a stray arrow. Use what you have.”

 

It does not matter how physically strong that fused is, if Jasnah can turn the air into acid to burn it, the rock beneath into water to drown it, the air into toxic gas to suffocate it. That is why it is unfair. Because it is not a matching of physical strength or direct combative skill. Is the archer that shoots an arrow into a crowd and takes out a captain any more or less skilled at wielding a sword than the captain? Does that mean the captain with physical prowess is useless or can be easily overcome in other scenarios? Of course not. But in that match up, the tools involved favor the archer. Just like in the match up between Jasnah and the purely physical fused, the tools would favor Jasnah. 

To be clear, I am not trying to say fused were push overs. I am sure they have their own counters, and means of fighting radiants. But that still does not change what was shown in that scene for me. That is why I feel we are talking past each other. I feel like you are taking what I write as saying the fused over all, the entire army is nothing against the radiants. When that is not what I am saying at all. 

 

Edit: here is another quote from the same chapter that supports everything i said:

“We will see. You think your powers are unfair because you slay dozens, and they cannot resist? What happens when a single individual can kill tens of thousands in moments—assuming the enemy will kindly bunch up in a neat little pike block. Things will change rapidly when such powers become common.”

“They’re hardly common.”

“I didn’t say they were,” he said. “Yet.”

 

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That said, I feel that I may have been unclear on this before, so I'll clarify it here now. I do not believe that Jasnah could only beat the fused by taking him by surprise with her powers. All that I am saying is that the claim that if Jasnah used her powers, she would be completely unstoppable, is false. Jasnah using her powers, without the aid of surprise, likely would have beaten the fused, but the fight would likely not have ended the moment she used her powers. The fused would have reacted to her catching everything on fire, and would not have given her the opening he did. The fight would have progressed further, and in the end Jasnah would most likely have won. However, the fused would have had a chance to win, meaning that the reason that this thread was made (radiants of the fourth ideal seem too powerful for the fused to defeat) is not entirely true. That was my only intention in arguing this point.

Then there is the confusion, because I never said Jasnah was unstoppable. I never said the fused was a push over. What I feel I said three times now, is judging Jasnah's capabilities when fighting the fused based on purely physical prowess does a disservice to both combatants. I pretty much covered this earlier in this posting so I won't just repeat it, but basically the arrow and the captain example I gave. 

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I wouldn't say that the Pursuer is never cautious the first time, but when we compare his first fight with Kaladin to his second fight, in the first he was always overconfident, particularly when Kaladin's powers where disabled, and in the second, despite Kaladin's powers being similarly disabled, Lezian fought extremely cautiously until Kaladin started running. Given that at this point, Lezian is starting to believe that he is truly unbeatable and is on the verge of insanity, he was likely even more cautious in the past. That said, my purpose was to agree with you, and to theorize as to why Lezian was able to keep from being killed twice in the thousands of years that he lived. Him simply retreating every time he is defeated or close to being defeated seems to me to be the most rational explanation for that fact. Kaladin was different from the radiants that were pursued in the past in that he forced Lezian to either fight him to the death or lose his reputation entirely. 

Again, Leshwi told us everything about Lezian at the beginning of the book. Lezian is obsessive. He was the very first fused ever killed by a human. If we take that at face value, then we could say he is the weakest. He was the first to fall. 

But to be clear, I am not saying he is the weakest. What I am saying is statements like that could be interpreted a ton of ways. So I try to stick to specifically what we are told.

She said he pursues his personal vendettas to the exclusion of all else. That he has sabotaged missions, and messed up past operations because of his obsession. If there is a situation where you have to maintain multiple objectives (lets say keep a group of people alive, reach a point of safety, and hold back enemy troops) while I only have one, killing you, that gives me the advantage. Further having already died at your hands, I know how you fight, what your abilities are. That gives me a ton of advantages. That doesn't mean I am this amazing unstoppable killer. It just means I have resources you don't. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I mean I literally already quoted a line, where Jasnah specifically says it is because they had systems in place to deal with shardbearers. 

Yes. I agree that Jasnah was surprised by how effective the enemies anti-shardbearer measures were. However, she obviously knew they existed before the battle started.

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And again literally already quoted the line, where both Wit and Jasnah say it is her powers that make the fight with the fused unfair.

Jasnah here is upset that she doesn't have the skill to beat a fused without relying on her radiant powers like a normal shardbearer would have to. ergo this section:

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Talented or not, you cannot conjure for yourself a lifetime of experienced butchery through force of will. There is no shame in using the powers you have developed. It is not unfair—or rather, it is no more unfair when the most skilled swordsman on the battlefield falls to a stray arrow. Use what you have.”

where Wit tells her that it is alright for her to use her powers. Jasnah isn't upset that she can't beat a fused without her powers for no reason. Her reason for being upset is that she doesn't have the physical combat skills that others in her army do. She's upset because someone like Dalinar would have beaten that fused without needing to soulcast. So yes, the external thing that she was upset at was that using her powers to defeat a fused felt "too easy", but the reason it felt "too easy" was not because the fused was easy to defeat, but because she wanted to be as good as Dalinar and other shardbearers.

21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It does not matter how physically strong that fused is, if Jasnah can turn the air into acid to burn it, the rock beneath into water to drown it, the air into toxic gas to suffocate it. That is why it is unfair. Because it is not a matching of physical strength or direct combative skill. Is the archer that shoots an arrow into a crowd and takes out a captain any more or less skilled at wielding a sword than the captain? Does that mean the captain with physical prowess is useless or can be easily overcome in other scenarios? Of course not. But in that match up, the tools involved favor the archer. Just like in the match up between Jasnah and the purely physical fused, the tools would favor Jasnah. 

Well, none of those would actually be effective. Fused don't need to breath and can heal from acid as well as a radiant. Particularly the regrowth variety. (Come to think of it, have we ever seen one of those run out of healing? Heavenly ones can fly forever, can regrowth fused heal forever unless you hit their gemheart?) Now, I admit that there were other things that Jasnah could have done. She could have soulcasted the air to stone, or whatever, but, particularly with limited stormlight, it wouldn't be a completely one-sided battle like you make it seem. I do agree that Jasnah had a significant advantage over the fused, even disregarding her surprise advantage. Not an unbeatable one, but with her powers there was never a chance that she would die, and she would have won that encounter in most scenarios.

33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then there is the confusion, because I never said Jasnah was unstoppable. I never said the fused was a push over. What I feel I said three times now, is judging Jasnah's capabilities when fighting the fused based on purely physical prowess does a disservice to both combatants. I pretty much covered this earlier in this posting so I won't just repeat it, but basically the arrow and the captain example I gave. 

If I was judging this based on purely physical prowess, Jasnah would have won just about 0/10 times. The fused was easily dominating her in a physical battle, and the only way she could have won that way would have been landing a very lucky hit on the gemheart. With her powers but without surprise, I'd place her odds at more around 8-9/10.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She said he pursues his personal vendettas to the exclusion of all else. That he has sabotaged missions, and messed up past operations because of his obsession. If there is a situation where you have to maintain multiple objectives (lets say keep a group of people alive, reach a point of safety, and hold back enemy troops) while I only have one, killing you, that gives me the advantage. Further having already died at your hands, I know how you fight, what your abilities are. That gives me a ton of advantages. That doesn't mean I am this amazing unstoppable killer. It just means I have resources you don't. 

You say he's not this amazing unstoppable killer, but then say that he has a ton of advantages. An advantage is an advantage, no matter where it comes from. Yes, Lezian is not the most skilled fighter alive, nor is he the most powerful. But he normally has the advantage in focus, experience, surprise, knowledge, etc. Our original argument started when I said that the only radiants that would have been able to replicate Kaladin's feat were Szeth and Dalinar, yes? So, in the same circumstances, with Lezian having all the advantages he normally does, he would eventually kill basically anyone else. I didn't say, or at least didn't mean to say, that no radiant would ever be able to beat him in a one on one fight when they were on even footing, or when the radiant had an advantage. If Lezian were that powerful, no one would have killed him in the first place.