Why the radiance seem a lot stronger than the Fused? Fused's powers possibly scale with radiant ideals

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes. I agree that Jasnah was surprised by how effective the enemies anti-shardbearer measures were. However, she obviously knew they existed before the battle started.

Jasnah here is upset that she doesn't have the skill to beat a fused without relying on her radiant powers like a normal shardbearer would have to. ergo this section:

where Wit tells her that it is alright for her to use her powers. Jasnah isn't upset that she can't beat a fused without her powers for no reason. Her reason for being upset is that she doesn't have the physical combat skills that others in her army do. She's upset because someone like Dalinar would have beaten that fused without needing to soulcast. So yes, the external thing that she was upset at was that using her powers to defeat a fused felt "too easy", but the reason it felt "too easy" was not because the fused was easy to defeat, but because she wanted to be as good as Dalinar and other shardbearers.

Well, none of those would actually be effective. Fused don't need to breath and can heal from acid as well as a radiant. Particularly the regrowth variety. (Come to think of it, have we ever seen one of those run out of healing? Heavenly ones can fly forever, can regrowth fused heal forever unless you hit their gemheart?) Now, I admit that there were other things that Jasnah could have done. She could have soulcasted the air to stone, or whatever, but, particularly with limited stormlight, it wouldn't be a completely one-sided battle like you make it seem. I do agree that Jasnah had a significant advantage over the fused, even disregarding her surprise advantage. Not an unbeatable one, but with her powers there was never a chance that she would die, and she would have won that encounter in most scenarios.

If I was judging this based on purely physical prowess, Jasnah would have won just about 0/10 times. The fused was easily dominating her in a physical battle, and the only way she could have won that way would have been landing a very lucky hit on the gemheart. With her powers but without surprise, I'd place her odds at more around 8-9/10.

You say he's not this amazing unstoppable killer, but then say that he has a ton of advantages. An advantage is an advantage, no matter where it comes from. Yes, Lezian is not the most skilled fighter alive, nor is he the most powerful. But he normally has the advantage in focus, experience, surprise, knowledge, etc. Our original argument started when I said that the only radiants that would have been able to replicate Kaladin's feat were Szeth and Dalinar, yes? So, in the same circumstances, with Lezian having all the advantages he normally does, he would eventually kill basically anyone else. I didn't say, or at least didn't mean to say, that no radiant would ever be able to beat him in a one on one fight when they were on even footing, or when the radiant had an advantage. If Lezian were that powerful, no one would have killed him in the first place.

I literally just wrote I never said the fused were push overs 

I literally never said Jasnah was over powered.

I literally added a quote from Wit where he specifically says jasnah feels it is unfair that her powers can slay dozens and they cannot resist.

The bodies of the fused are still living bodies. They have to breathe like anyone else. They have to expend voidlight to actively heal. 

 

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only going on what is literally written in the book. I am getting tired of being misquoted and misrepresented. 

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I literally just wrote I never said the fused were push overs 

I did not say that you said that the fused were pushovers.

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I literally never said Jasnah was over powered.

I did not say that Jasnah was overpowered. You compared Jasnah fighting the regrowth fused to a captain getting hit by an arrow at random. You seemed to be saying that if Jasnah used her powers, the regrowth fused that she fought would never be able to win. Now, that might not have been your intention. Rereading that part of your earlier post, you might have been saying that in the specific  matchup between Jasnah and the fused that played out the way it did, with Jasnah's surprise attack, the fused had no chance. Which I am obviously not going to dispute. All I am arguing is that if the fused was prepared for the possibility of Jasnah catching everything on fire or soulcasting, he would have put up a better fight. He would not have won. But he would have put up a better fight.

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I literally added a quote from Wit where he specifically says jasnah feels it is unfair that her powers can slay dozens and they cannot resist.

Yes, Jasnah feels that it is unfair that she has powers that normal soldiers don't. When did I say that she didn't feel it unfair?

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The bodies of the fused are still living bodies. They have to breathe like anyone else. They have to expend voidlight to actively heal. 

The fused do have living bodies. However, radiants can go for extended periods of time without breathing, and I don't see any reason that the fused, who are normally far more efficient in investiture usage than radiants, would be any more bothered by being unable to breath than Jasnah would be. Regrowth fused are either able to heal forever or able to heal so efficiently that draining them of voidlight is simply not an option or would take a very long battle, given that we have never seen one of them killed in any way other than a stab to the gemheart.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only going on what is literally written in the book. I am getting tired of being misquoted and misrepresented. 

I am literally just going on what is in the book. I am tired of being misquoted and misrepresented. I am not arguing with you. I am agreeing with you, or at least I think I am.

Do you agree that Jasnah would win 9/10 times against the regrowth fused, if both used their powers and neither had the advantage of surprise?

Do you agree that since the Pursuer has never been killed twice by the same person in 7,000 years, there must be a reason for that?

Do you agree that the most likely explanation for Lezian's success rate is the advantages he gains from his single minded devotion to killing his prey, his knowledge of the radiant's powers and combat skills, and the survivability his particular powers give him?

Do you agree that, given the fact that he had never been killed by anyone twice, the Pursuer would have succeeded against an average knight radiant in modern day?

If so, then I see no reason to continue arguing, since we already agree.

[Kandrafish]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Heralds live just as long. And so do Spren, and spren don't go insane because of it.

There are only 10 Heralds and a small number of Sleepless. Spren forget lots of stuff when they bond and I don't know if very many of them study regular human tactics (too chaotic for cryptics and too big picture for honorspren... Maybe inkspren? peakspren? or ashspren?, but they still might not remember very clearly and their minds work different, so there is the issue of translation)

The forces of Odium have a significantly larger number of tacticians. Its like playing Risk/ Axis and Allies against 3 of your friends. One of them will be able to figure out the best move most of the time and one of them will stop the others from falling into a trap more often than you. 

Certainly the Heralds could say "a good strategy is to stab the fused in the gemheart if they open themselves up like x", but in the particular situation, the fused could be baiting them. It would be the exact same with larger tactics. And, without spanreeds, the Heralds that know about tactics cannot be everywhere, but the sane fused that know about tactics can be much more spread out on a battlefield.

"Practice makes perfect..." is a frightening thing to think about when fighting the fused.

Sorry, I had this written up in a tab and I thought I already sent it... Someone else already made a similar point...

 

While I am at it, I will add that I also agree that with Nameless: We can all agree that Radiants of higher oaths will win the vast majority of the time in a fight, but sometimes they lose and the fused don't ever die, so they keep coming back and the new Radiants will be lower in their oaths...

Ultimately, the factors cancelling out to make if a fair-ish fight is something we need to assume because of the devastation present... I would prefer to speculate on what those factors are.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Kandrafish

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

There are only 10 Heralds and a small number of Sleepless. Spren forget lots of stuff when they bond and I don't know if very many of them study regular human tactics (too chaotic for cryptics and too big picture for honorspren... Maybe inkspren? peakspren? or ashspren?, but they still might not remember very clearly and their minds work different, so there is the issue of translation)

I doubt that to be the case, of the three spren we've seen that have had multiple Radiants, Syl was hurt increadibly hard because of it, but only because she was young, The Stormfather doesn't bring up information unsless specifically asked for, but the Sibling seems to have retained all mental functions and memories, so I don't see why others wouldn't be able to share.

[Kandrafish]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I doubt that to be the case, of the three spren we've seen that have had multiple Radiants, Syl was hurt increadibly hard because of it, but only because she was young, The Stormfather doesn't bring up information unsless specifically asked for, but the Sibling seems to have retained all mental functions and memories, so I don't see why others wouldn't be able to share.

Good point. I still think having young and inexperienced Radiants makes it more likely that there will be tactical mistakes on the human side.

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

Good point. I still think having young and inexperienced Radiants makes it more likely that there will be tactical mistakes on the human side.

Yeah, the fused are immediately battlefield generals, while none of the spren we've seen have any skill in human tactics.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, the fused are immediately battlefield generals, while none of the spren we've seen have any skill in human tactics.

Any of the ones who would be are now dead.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Any of the ones who would be are now dead.

Yes, but even if they weren't dead, they couldn't teach people how to fight very well without physical form. They wouldn't have the presence that fused have.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Nameless
unclear

[Pathfinder]

See this is why I contemplated not replying at all.

 

21 hours ago, Nameless said:

You compared Jasnah fighting the regrowth fused to a captain getting hit by an arrow at random. You seemed to be saying that if Jasnah used her powers, the regrowth fused that she fought would never be able to win.

Ok please tell me where I wrote the fused was never going to be able to win? I really would like to know where I typed that.

I would state again what I did actually say, but it really feels pointless at this point. 

Quote

Now, that might not have been your intention. Rereading that part of your earlier post, you might have been saying that in the specific  matchup between Jasnah and the fused that played out the way it did, with Jasnah's surprise attack, the fused had no chance.

Again, please tell me where I wrote "the fused had no chance", because at this point I really am at a loss.

Quote

Which I am obviously not going to dispute. All I am arguing is that if the fused was prepared for the possibility of Jasnah catching everything on fire or soulcasting, he would have put up a better fight. He would not have won. But he would have put up a better fight.

When did I ever say the fused could not put up a fight?

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Yes, Jasnah feels that it is unfair that she has powers that normal soldiers don't. When did I say that she didn't feel it unfair?

Totally missing the point and context of the conversation Jasnah and Wit had. 

Quote

The fused do have living bodies. However, radiants can go for extended periods of time without breathing, and I don't see any reason that the fused, who are normally far more efficient in investiture usage than radiants, would be any more bothered by being unable to breath than Jasnah would be. Regrowth fused are either able to heal forever or able to heal so efficiently that draining them of voidlight is simply not an option or would take a very long battle, given that we have never seen one of them killed in any way other than a stab to the gemheart.

The regrowth fused uses the surge of growth to grow hulking armor and weapons as durable as shardplate. The heavenly ones have unlimited gravitation on themselves. The Deep Ones can glide themselves through stone, but not draw others through it. The transportation can only teleport a total of 4 times and cannot take anything with him. He stops at 3, so the 4th can get him out to get more voidlight. The masked ones can only place illusions on themselves, and it is limited to humanoid forms. Raboniel only soulcasted the weapon when it touched her, and soulcasted the air she exhaled from her lungs. 

Now lets compare that to radiants. Lift knew how to use the surge of regrowth to make plants, but didn't know how to use healing till later. Kaladin and Szeth could use gravitation but had to learn how to handle using multiple lashes in sudden different directions. (BTW you can only lash in a direction, not at a specific target meaning it cannot move with the moving target. WoB on that). Venli learns how to completely alter stone. Oathgates allow for complete transition of body and all materials. Shallan learns to creat illusions of all kinds of shapes and forms and can attach it to anyone. Jasnah can soulcast at range. 

When it comes to the fused, passive use of their abilities comes at little to no cost. Flying, growing armor and weapons, self illusions, short teleports, and etc. When it is used more actively it costs far more. They have to expend voidlight to heal, and heal far slower than radiants. It is why they tend not to heal during battle. Kaladin comments on this while fighting Leshwi. Heavenly ones lashing an enemy costs them a lot of voidlight, which is why they rarely do it. The regrowth fused have never healed anyone or themselves. The only grow armor and weapons. Unless you can show me where in the book they constantly healed themselves? If you can, I would appreciate it. 

 

I put this separate because otherwise I fear it will be missed and I will be accused of saying fused are easily defeated again. I am not saying that. I am literally just commenting on the function and how powers interact.

 

If person A had was a martial artist, and person B had a pistol, and both were a moderate distance away, person B could say it is unfair that they have a gun because they can just shoot person A. If person A was actually up closer to person B so that they could use their martial arts, the situation would be different wouldn't it?

Does that mean one or the other is less capable? Of course not.

But it doesn't change that shooting a gun at range at the martial artist makes all that training not matter one bit. It is not fair to judge the martial artist's skill based on getting shot with a gun. It is not fair to consider the person who shot the martial artist as the "winner". But it does not matter if it is fair. It is war. If you got a gun, you use the gun. Which is what was Wit's point. 

To be clear again, I am not saying anyone wins or loses. I am not judging anyone's skill. I am not saying anyone is weak or strong. 

Quote

I am literally just going on what is in the book. I am tired of being misquoted and misrepresented. I am not arguing with you. I am agreeing with you, or at least I think I am.

Do you agree that Jasnah would win 9/10 times against the regrowth fused, if both used their powers and neither had the advantage of surprise?

Do you agree that since the Pursuer has never been killed twice by the same person in 7,000 years, there must be a reason for that?

Do you agree that the most likely explanation for Lezian's success rate is the advantages he gains from his single minded devotion to killing his prey, his knowledge of the radiant's powers and combat skills, and the survivability his particular powers give him?

Do you agree that, given the fact that he had never been killed by anyone twice, the Pursuer would have succeeded against an average knight radiant in modern day?

If so, then I see no reason to continue arguing, since we already agree.

I am not going to answer any of that, because as I said, I feel this has reached the point of ridiculousness. I do not see anything conducive in continuing this. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Pathfinder

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

See this is why I contemplated not replying at all.

 

Ok please tell me where I wrote the fused was never going to be able to win? I really would like to know where I typed that.

I would state again what I did actually say, but it really feels pointless at this point. 

Again, please tell me where I wrote "the fused had no chance", because at this point I really am at a loss.

When did I ever say the fused could not put up a fight?

Totally missing the point and context of the conversation Jasnah and Wit had. 

The regrowth fused uses the surge of growth to grow hulking armor and weapons as durable as shardplate. The heavenly ones have unlimited gravitation on themselves. The Deep Ones can glide themselves through stone, but not draw others through it. The transportation can only teleport a total of 4 times and cannot take anything with him. He stops at 3, so the 4th can get him out to get more voidlight. The masked ones can only place illusions on themselves, and it is limited to humanoid forms. Raboniel only soulcasted the weapon when it touched her, and soulcasted the air she exhaled from her lungs. 

Now lets compare that to radiants. Lift knew how to use the surge of regrowth to make plants, but didn't know how to use healing till later. Kaladin and Szeth could use gravitation but had to learn how to handle using multiple lashes in sudden different directions. (BTW you can only lash in a direction, not at a specific target, moving with the target. WoB on that). Venli learns how to completely alter stone. Oathgates allow for complete transition of body and all materials. Shallan learns to creat illusions of all kinds of shapes and forms and can attach it to anyone. Jasnah can soulcast at range. 

When it comes to the fused, passive use of their abilities comes at little to no cost. Flying, growing armor and weapons, self illusions, short teleports, and etc. When it is used more actively it costs far more. They have to expend voidlight to heal, and heal far slower than radiants. It is why they tend not to heal during battle. Kaladin comments on this while fighting Leshwi. Heavenly ones lashing an enemy costs them a lot of voidlight, which is why they rarely do it. The regrowth fused have never healed anyone or themselves. The only grow armor and weapons. Unless you can show me where in the book they constantly healed themselves? If you can, I would appreciate it. 

 

I put this separate because otherwise I fear it will be missed and I will be accused of saying fused are easily defeated again. I am not saying that. I am literally just commenting on the function and how powers interact.

 

If person A had was a martial artist, and person B had a pistol, and both were a moderate distance away, person B could say it is unfair that they have a gun because they can just shoot person A. If person A was actually up closer to person B so that they could use their martial arts, the situation would be different wouldn't it?

Does that mean one or the other is less capable? Of course not.

But it doesn't change that shooting a gun at range at the martial artist makes all that training not matter one bit. It is not fair to judge the martial artist's skill based on getting shot with a gun. It is not fair to consider the person who shot the martial artist as the "winner". But it does not matter if it is fair. It is war. If you got a gun, you use the gun. Which is what was Wit's point. 

To be clear again, I am not saying anyone wins or loses. I am not judging anyone's skill. I am not saying anyone is weak or strong. 

I am not going to answer any of that, because as I said, I feel this has reached the point of ridiculousness. I do not see anything conducive in continuing this. 

Look. I don't entirely agree with what you said here. But I'm not going to argue with you, because our discussion has gotten way off point. I feel that we are both taking each others answers in the most antagonizing way possible, so I will just ask you this again:

Do you agree that Jasnah would win 9/10 times against the regrowth fused, if both used their powers and neither had the advantage of surprise?

Do you agree that since the Pursuer has never been killed twice by the same person in 7,000 years, there must be a reason for that?

Do you agree that the most likely explanation for Lezian's success rate is the advantages he gains from his single minded devotion to killing his prey, his knowledge of the radiant's powers and combat skills, and the survivability his particular powers give him?

Do you agree that, given the fact that he had never been killed by anyone twice, the Pursuer would have succeeded against an average knight radiant in modern day?

My original argument was in response to Frustration saying this:

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He gets obliterated twice by a man with almost zero powers, he can't fight 1 vs 1 he has to take his opponent by surprise, that's not skill that's luck.

Being a soldier is being able to fight well in groups, something anti-thetical to Lezian's style, being a fighter is being good 1vs1, but even then he lost twice.

Our argument started when you replied to me bringing up Jasnah as an example of a fused giving a fourth ideal radiant a somewhat hard time by saying that Jasnah was deliberately handicapping herself.

So, in our arguments, I had two main points:

1. Lezian is not a pushover.

2. Jasnah, a fourth ideal radiant, would not have had a completely one sided battle with the fused, even if she used her powers from the beginning.

Now, this next part is very important, So I'll put it in bold. I am not saying that you said the opposite of either of these points. I am saying that this is what I have said, or at least meant to say, and I think you mostly agree with me.

[+Bzhydack]

@Nameless, @Pathfinder you both are going with the same arguments over and over again. I think this is due to misunderstanding, but also I dont see how you two can compromise, because you both read the same fragment of book slightly differently. So I would argue to simply stop arguing about that and agree to disagree.

Also, about Fused. I think that unlike among Radiants, where main military force are (were) Winrunners and Stonewards (followed by probably Dustbringers) main "Ground foot soldiers" among Fused are in fact Regrowth Fused. They are the largest ones, they are heavily armored, insanly strong, and more important, they can heal any wound. Weve seen them regrowth limbs and whole carapce structures literally in seconds time and time again. Practicly anything what isnt strike in the gemheart they can simply walk off (I dont know how about cutting off head... Someone remember?) And as all Fused they are more efficient with Light than Radiants, so they can fight and Regrowth very long time, and fight for attrition.

[Frustration]

I just had a thought that brings Radiants during the Desolations to a whole new level of unbeatable, Honor controllled the Highstorm, and he was in active contact with Radiants, so if they needed stormlight, he simply would speed up the highstorm until it got to where the Radiants were, if a battle happened he could simply stop the storm overtop of it.

[NameIess]

19 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, about Fused. I think that unlike among Radiants, where main military force are (were) Winrunners and Stonewards (followed by probably Dustbringers) main "Ground foot soldiers" among Fused are in fact Regrowth Fused. They are the largest ones, they are heavily armored, insanly strong, and more important, they can heal any wound. Weve seen them regrowth limbs and whole carapce structures literally in seconds time and time again. Practicly anything what isnt strike in the gemheart they can simply walk off (I dont know how about cutting off head... Someone remember?) And as all Fused they are more efficient with Light than Radiants, so they can fight and Regrowth very long time, and fight for attrition.

I think Kaladin might have killed one of them at the end of OB by slashing his shardblade through its head. Not entirely sure.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

I just had a thought that brings Radiants during the Desolations to a whole new level of unbeatable, Honor controllled the Highstorm, and he was in active contact with Radiants, so if they needed stormlight, he simply would speed up the highstorm until it got to where the Radiants were, if a battle happened he could simply stop the storm overtop of it.

Well, there are a couple of teensy tiny problems with that. First, we don't know that Honor was in contact with the radiants like that, or that he would manipulate the storms for them. Actually, considering that Odium was unchained during that time, I doubt he could spare the focus. Second, messing with the highstorms really messes up the weather, as we saw at the beginning of OB. Third, hovering a highstorm over a place where two armies are fighting is gonna be a bad idea. Most of the soldiers aren't radiants, and singers kinda have the whole "you're safe if you go out into a storm" thing, plus stormform. It could be useful in a battle with only radiants and fused, but those kinds of battles are too small scale to be worth all the effort.

[Frustration]

43 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, there are a couple of teensy tiny problems with that. First, we don't know that Honor was in contact with the radiants like that,

Considering he was in regular enough contact that he talked each generation through humanities origins on Roshar I think we do.

44 minutes ago, Nameless said:

or that he would manipulate the storms for them.

When Odium moves the everstorm to Theylanah at the end of OB The Stormfather says that Odium is moving it like Honor used to move him. So it did happen, whether to the extent I think it did is uncertain, but it did happen.

46 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Actually, considering that Odium was unchained during that time, I doubt he could spare the focus. 

Odium was bound before the Desolations started, because the Oathpact was made afterwards.

47 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Second, messing with the highstorms really messes up the weather, as we saw at the beginning of OB.

Not really, Highstorms are already unpredictable, the best stormwardens can get is, "These days are likely to have highstorms." and as stated before Honor did do it.

49 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Third, hovering a highstorm over a place where two armies are fighting is gonna be a bad idea. Most of the soldiers aren't radiants, and singers kinda have the whole "you're safe if you go out into a storm" thing, plus stormform. It could be useful in a battle with only radiants and fused, but those kinds of battles are too small scale to be worth all the effort.

Just put it behind you, or behind your enemies, whichever works best for you tactically.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Odium was bound before the Desolations started, because the Oathpact was made afterwards.

He could still kill Honor. 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really, Highstorms are already unpredictable, the best stormwardens can get is, "These days are likely to have highstorms." and as stated before Honor did do it.

Hightstorms might be unpredictable, but they can usually predict them correctly to the day. The one time we see the highstorm come at totally the wrong time, it messed up the weather significantly.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just put it behind you, or behind your enemies, whichever works best for you tactically.

Put it behind your enemies and they can retreat into it. And you can't control which side it comes from, unless you want it to go over your army.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He could still kill Honor.

He DID kill Honor. And I highly doubt that moving the Highstorm, something we know he did, was what caused it, nor do I think that it took all of Honor's focus at all times to maintain that binding, as even now 2,000 years later he is still bound.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Hightstorms might be unpredictable, but they can usually predict them correctly to the day. The one time we see the highstorm come at totally the wrong time, it messed up the weather significantly.

I don't recall weather being messed up, and even if it was I think it's more likely to be a result of the entirely new storm that never existed before suddenly appearing than the other one being a few days faster. What I do remeber being messed up was Stormwarden predictions.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Put it behind your enemies and they can retreat into it.

And then you can move it back, or make the winds more feroucious, and direct lightning at them, or harry them with Radiants.

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

 And you can't control which side it comes from, unless you want it to go over your army.

Stonewards, willshapers and Elsecallers can make a stormshelter for you, or simply calm the winds near the bottom, or have Windrunners part the winds around your forces.

[Kandrafish]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He DID kill Honor. And I highly doubt that moving the Highstorm, something we know he did, was what caused it, nor do I think that it took all of Honor's focus at all times to maintain that binding, as even now 2,000 years later he is still bound.

He is still bound to the Rosharan System... But, free on Roshar if a Desolation is going on, as far as I understand.

34 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Hightstorms might be unpredictable, but they can usually predict them correctly to the day. The one time we see the highstorm come at totally the wrong time, it messed up the weather significantly.

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't recall weather being messed up, and even if it was I think it's more likely to be a result of the entirely new storm that never existed before suddenly appearing than the other one being a few days faster. What I do remeber being messed up was Stormwarden predictions.

 

Highstorms are mathematically predictable. Theoretically, they are bound by some rules... And Honor, as he got weaker, would have less ability to defy his intent and would struggle to break the standard pattern that the Highstorm obeys. 

I'll risk repeating somethings that I have said before and suggest that perhaps Odium was desperately trying to Shatter Honor because the growth of the Knights Radiant would have made controlling a Highstorm overpowered.

I have, in my mind, the idea that before Honor was shattered, it was 2 gods versus 1, so, sure Odium is dangerous, but he still needs to be fighting tooth and nail before Honor and Cultivation get their bearings and properly defeat him in this 2 vs 1 duel. 

 

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Stonewards, willshapers and Elsecallers can make a stormshelter for you, or simply calm the winds near the bottom, or have Windrunners part the winds around your forces.

This is certainly true. I think Rayse talks about how he could now ride his own storm, like Tanavast used, to during Oathbringer. But, even Odium cannot make his storm go backwards and he is less inclined to being bound than Honor would be, based on intent.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Kandrafish said:

He is still bound to the Rosharan System... But, free on Roshar if a Desolation is going on, as far as I understand.

Desolations are based on a similar pattern, but are not the same thing as the binding of Odium, a desolation happening won't affect Odium in any real sense.

1 hour ago, Kandrafish said:

Highstorms are mathematically predictable. Theoretically, they are bound by some rules... And Honor, as he got weaker, would have less ability to defy his intent and would struggle to break the standard pattern that the Highstorm obeys. 

Highstorms are predictable, but not entirely, Stormwardens can only get chances, likely on this day, unikely this day and so forth.

[Bort]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

or have Windrunners part the winds around your forces.

Kaladin is the only Windrunner we've seen with this ability. It may be possible for others to do it too, but right now, it's just Kaladin. To the point where even Syl was surprised by what he could do.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Bort said:

Kaladin is the only Windrunner we've seen with this ability. It may be possible for others to do it too, but right now, it's just Kaladin. To the point where even Syl was surprised by what he could do.

It's just adhesion, Pressure and Vacuum.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Frustration

[Argus the Awful]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's just adhesion, Pressure and Vaccum.

Vacuum* 

[Bort]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's just adhesion, Pressure and Vacuum.

And how do you know this? Where is the WoB, or the passage in the books that confirm it?

Have ANY of the other Windrunners shown this talent?

[NameIess]

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't recall weather being messed up, and even if it was I think it's more likely to be a result of the entirely new storm that never existed before suddenly appearing than the other one being a few days faster. What I do remeber being messed up was Stormwarden predictions.

The weeping went on and off for a while. 

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

And then you can move it back, or make the winds more feroucious, and direct lightning at them, or harry them with Radiants.

I'm pretty sure that Honor made some kind of pact with the ancient singers that they would be safe in the storms.

 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Bort said:

And how do you know this? Where is the WoB, or the passage in the books that confirm it?

Have ANY of the other Windrunners shown this talent?

From the Ars Acanum found at the back of any copy of the Stormlight Archive.

"Adhesion - The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum"

Raise the pressure enough and winds won't affect the area.

Also notice how Urithiru reacts to an apporaching Highstorm, it raises the pressure, so clearly this is not just a Kaladin thing.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The weeping went on and off for a while. 

Oh yeah I do remember that.

It was also during the Weeping beforehand, so I doubt that it would have the same effect any other time of year.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'm pretty sure that Honor made some kind of pact with the ancient singers that they would be safe in the storms.

I think that's a bit of an overstatement, and didn't some of them get crushed by boulders in RoW?

And Eshonai certainly died, and they bring sheilds out into the Highstorm as protection, so they aren't "Safe"

[Bort]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

From the Ars Acanum found at the back of any copy of the Stormlight Archive.

"Adhesion - The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum"

Raise the pressure enough and winds won't affect the area.

Also notice how Urithiru reacts to an apporaching Highstorm, it raises the pressure, so clearly this is not just a Kaladin thing.

So... Kaladin and a building can do this.

Ok, with you so far... What about the other Windrunners? Where's your evidence supporting that they can do this (or indeed ANYTHING like this)? Or are you willingly ignoring all the evidence supporting that Kaladin is somehow special?

You say it's "just" Adhesion, but look at the number of times Kaladin can either do something unexpected with his abilities, or the feelings he gets from time to time (sensing highstorms, etc). Not one of the other Windrunners display any of these abilities, making me think this isn't simply Adhesion, but rather a form of Adhesion Plus. In the same way Dalinar can do things the Stormfather never dreamed would be possible, so can Kaladin.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Bort