[Discuss] Windrunner 5th Ideal

[Letryx13]

I think the fifth ideal might be about protecting himself.  To remember to put himself first sometimes, which is sort of what he's doing with the therapy sessions, so that could serve as foreshadowing.  

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I think the fifth ideal might be about protecting himself.  To remember to put himself first sometimes, which is sort of what he's doing with the therapy sessions, so that could serve as foreshadowing.  

Or it could just show that he already is protecting himself. No need to swear an oath to do what you already do without it.

[Letryx13]

9 hours ago, Nameless said:

Or it could just show that he already is protecting himself. No need to swear an oath to do what you already do without it.

I just thought it was interesting that both he and Teft came to similar realizations during RoW. Teft admitted that he was worth saving, and Kaladin finally started taking care of himself.  I guess putting yourself first sometimes might make more sense for an EdgeDancer or StoneWard ideal, but I thought it might work for WindRunners too.

[SirNoSell]

On 14/05/2021 at 2:22 PM, Jofwu said:

I could see a few other directions, but the intuitive fifth oath to me is "I will protect myself".

I think the oath has to be something that's HARD for a 4th level Windrunner to say. A lot of the ideas being thrown out are cool, but I don't see Kaladin having a hard time saying them. On the other hand, this really is the last big lesson that Kaladin needs to learn. He gives and gives and gives. The man needs to learn that he has limits. He needs to accept that, especially after the 4th oath, sometimes I needs to not just accept that he can't save everyone. Sometimes he has to choose saving himself over trying to save everyone.

My guess is that we'll see a big confrontation with Kaladin and Moash that ends with Kaladin having a choice. Save Moash at great personal risk, or let the guy go. And he'll opt for the latter. Something to that effect anyways. I can see it play out a few different ways.

 

"I cannot protect others from themselves, so I will protect those I can by leading by example."

Or something like that...

Edited October 21, 2021 by BrightLord Swageas

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I have theory based on the idea that maybe relador( syl's old radiant) was a fifth ideal radiant.

I think it it makes sense, syl slept for centuries right( someone correct me if I am wrong). That much damage should mean fifth ideal prolly. And we also know he was old. And that he traveled to villages or something.

That means the fifth ideal lets you leave the frontlines.

I think this will be the final exposition that syl will give to Kaladin, some knowledge about what kind of thing the fifth ideal is.

I think it will be one of these these three

I will let others protect themselves

I will help others protect themselves

I will lead others to protect themselves

The whole kill to protect debate always stemmed from his issues with Lirin, which is resolved-ish when Lirin kind of allows it at the end of RoW. Moash, on the other hand, is still unresolved....

Kaladin's ideal will be the second one, helping people. He wants to be a therapist afterall. 

Theory time: Moash will torment kal more, kal won't fight him much, try to reason with him more, Moash will lose his pain taking gift.

When Moash starts feeling all his guilt, he will try to take the easy route and try to kill himself

Kal will think about letting this happen and then remember tien's horse. This will make him remember the one time where kal helped tien instead of the other way around( when tien was called to the army and he was terrified and kal decides to protect his normally happy brother by touching the horse in the flashback)

Quote

Tien stared after him, pale as a whitewashed building. Kaladin could see his terror at leaving his family. His brother, the one who always made him smile when it rained. It was physically painful for Kaladin to see him so scared. It wasn’t right. Tien should smile. That was who he was.

He felt the wooden horse in his pocket. Tien always brought him relief when he felt pained. Suddenly, it occurred to him that there was something he could do in turn. It’s time to stop hiding in the room when someone else holds up the globe of light, Kaladin thought. It’s time to be a man.

He will rush forward and stop Pathetic Moash from killing himself. Moash will ask why

" Because life is worth living. Because it's not all just pain. You will be warm again. But You need to live and face consequences for your actions. You need to fix what you have done"

Moash will say " I don't have the strength to do that. I can't handle that pain"

Kal will say " I will help. I have decided. I will help others protect themselves"

Dalinar, across the continent, in middle of battle will say, These words are accepted.

To people saying Moash should just die, I agree. But I don't think that meshes well with kal becoming a therapist.

Also deadeyes can be healed evidenced by Adolin, they are broken spren ( metaphor for broken people).

And what did Moash become? Blind. A literal deadeye.

Moash is broken, there is no way kal the therapist will just let him die or kill him. That I am pretty sure is right.

If Moash is not getting a redemption arc, then there is no way Brandon would have gone into nearly as much depth as he already has. Or made him blind.

So even if you want Moash to die, it's not gonna happen

Another question, is this the first redemption arc Brandon has done?

 

[Mason Wheeler]

9 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Another question, is this the first redemption arc Brandon has done?

The thing about redemption arcs is, they don't work particularly well unless the fall that the character needs to be redeemed from happens off-camera.  Moash's didn't.  We saw every detail of him giving himself over to the enemy, from his own perspective, and it made a significant fraction of the fanbase -- probably a majority -- feel that he was irredeemable.

On Writing Excuses, Brandon talks a lot about "promises," about how you set up audience expectations early on in a narrative and then fulfill them later on in the story.  It really doesn't feel like he's done anything to promise a Moash redemption, and he's also talked various times about how he's well-aware of the fanbase's utter hatred for the character.  He's fully aware that if he does go for it, there's a lot of people who will view it as a betrayal.  This makes me doubt that it will happen.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Mason Wheeler

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The thing about redemption arcs is, they don't work particularly well unless the fall that the character needs to be redeemed from happens off-camera.  Moash's didn't.  We saw every detail of him giving himself over to the enemy, from his own perspective, and it made a significant fraction of the fanbase -- probably a majority -- feel that he was irredeemable.

I think the level of detail is exactly why  he is going to get a redemption arc, because if not, if he is supposed to be a villain, then why show us the whole process. 

I haven't seen many good redemption arcs, most are just ok. But I disagree that 'good' redemption arcs don't focus on the character's mistakes. I find it to be the opposite

 

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The thing about redemption arcs is, they don't work particularly well unless the fall that the character needs to be redeemed from happens off-camera.  Moash's didn't.  We saw every detail of him giving himself over to the enemy, from his own perspective, and it made a significant fraction of the fanbase -- probably a majority -- feel that he was irredeemable.

On Writing Excuses, Brandon talks a lot about "promises," about how you set up audience expectations early on in a narrative and then fulfill them later on in the story.  It really doesn't feel like he's done anything to promise a Moash redemption, and he's also talked various times about how he's well-aware of the fanbase's utter hatred for the character.  He's fully aware that if he does go for it, there's a lot of people who will view it as a betrayal.  This makes me doubt that it will happen.

I don't think Moash will be redeemed either.  When Rennarin is talking to Taravangian in one of the interludes, he states that his father's evolution proved to him that no one is so far gone that they can not be rescued.  That's a common theme in fiction, and for good reason.  But another aspect that is included in some of those kinds of stories is that the person has to want to change or be redeemed, such as Dalinar with his regret over killing the people of the Rift when he went to see the Nightwatcher. Or with his guilt over not being able to save his brother.  

Moash doesn't seem to want to change.   He saw only the negative parts of humans when he first saw the Singer occupation, and used that to convince himself that everyone else was wrong, not him. He passed on the chance to start over, and took the easier route of blaming everyone else.  

I think Sanderson is trying to use Moash to portray the idea that if someone doesn't want to be saved, there's nothing anyone, even Kaladin Stormblessed, can do. Which I admit seems like it should tie into the fourth WindRunner ideal, but I can see it being part of his fifth ideal too. Maybe about sacrificing something to protect people?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

12 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I don't think Moash will be redeemed either.  When Rennarin is talking to Taravangian in one of the interludes, he states that his father's evolution proved to him that no one is so far gone that they can not be rescued.  That's a common theme in fiction, and for good reason.  But another aspect that is included in some of those kinds of stories is that the person has to want to change or be redeemed, such as Dalinar with his regret over killing the people of the Rift when he went to see the Nightwatcher. Or with his guilt over not being able to save his brother.  

Moash doesn't seem to want to change.   He saw only the negative parts of humans when he first saw the Singer occupation, and used that to convince himself that everyone else was wrong, not him. He passed on the chance to start over, and took the easier route of blaming everyone else.  

I think Sanderson is trying to use Moash to portray the idea that if someone doesn't want to be saved, there's nothing anyone, even Kaladin Stormblessed, can do. Which I admit seems like it should tie into the fourth WindRunner ideal, but I can see it being part of his fifth ideal too. Maybe about sacrificing something to protect people?

Interesting point of view, but I would say Kaladin definitely chose both times to end his life, but syl and Dalinar could not care less

Kal: I wanna die

Stormdaddy: what about syl?

Kal: too weak

Daddynar: lemme connect u with ur bro, bro

Kal: wut?

It just doesn't make sense to let Moash die( who is definitely going to try to kill himself) because no one really wants to die. Kal has proved that twice. 

Stormlight archive is about 'broken' people. All of the main characters are broken. Radiants are almost by definition broken(not exactly),  the heralds and their torture are obvious metaphors for mental illnesses, even spren need to be healed from being a deadeye or broken

If syl had given up on kal in the first book, kal the radiant would not have happened. Shallan was integral to the battle at thaylen fields nd she deserves help.

The only person the series has given up on is Sadeas, who was petty, born in a stupid culture and not broken.

Moash is not written to be Sadeas. He is broken first, evil idiot later.

Kal just won't let Moash die. Atleast it would not work with the theme of the series at all.

Also, Dalinar has done the worst crime ever in the series but he is redeemed at the end.

Edit: Also even elhokar got a redemption arc before his death, and teft was killed only after he fully accepted himself.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Morningtide]

Slightly off topic, but has anyone else noticed that the second, third, and fourth windrunner oaths follow the pattern of the first oath? 

Life before death: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. I will save lives, saving lives before they die.

Strength before weakness: I will protect those I hate so long as it is right. I will protect people who I hate and be strong, not weak and hateful

Journey before destination: I accept that there were those who I could not protect. There is a journey to protecting; those who died do not end my journey, they are not the destination.

I didn't perfectly explain it, but it seems to me like the fifth oath would sum up the rest of the oaths and apply to all parts of the first one.

 

[Dreamwa1ker]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:02 PM, Morningtide said:

Slightly off topic, but has anyone else noticed that the second, third, and fourth windrunner oaths follow the pattern of the first oath? 

Life before death: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. I will save lives, saving lives before they die.

Strength before weakness: I will protect those I hate so long as it is right. I will protect people who I hate and be strong, not weak and hateful

Journey before destination: I accept that there were those who I could not protect. There is a journey to protecting; those who died do not end my journey, they are not the destination.

I didn't perfectly explain it, but it seems to me like the fifth oath would sum up the rest of the oaths and apply to all parts of the first one.

 

I got what you are saying and I just wanted to say I LOVE this idea. And I'm wondering if the other orders might also follow a similar pattern. Especially since folks have already pointed out the pattern of how the 3rd ideal generally seems to involve you taking the order's main directive further and expanding it in a way that is HARD for your natural inclination and requires moral strength and growth (protect even those you hate, listen to those who have been ignored even if you disagree, taking responsibility for what you have done) and that really fits "strength before weakness".

[Mason Wheeler]

On 10/23/2021 at 1:02 PM, Morningtide said:

Slightly off topic, but has anyone else noticed that the second, third, and fourth windrunner oaths follow the pattern of the first oath? 

Very interesting.  Can you see a similar pattern in the Skybreaker oaths?

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Very interesting.  Can you see a similar pattern in the Skybreaker oaths?

This is gonna be iffy, but I'll give it a shot.

Life before death: I swear to follow the law/seek justice. I will set an example of how one should live (at least that's what I believe the purpose of this Ideal is).

Strength before weakness: I swear to dedicate myself to my code. I will have the strength to follow my chosen code, no matter how it restricts me.

Journey before destination: I will prove myself and my dedication. Literally the Ideal of Crusade; I will follow through on my journey towards justice.

Fifth Ideal: the Ideal of Law. I am the law/justice/truth; I have the confidence to know what's right. The culmination of the previous Ideals: I am living a just life, I have the strength to know right and wrong, I will continue on this path for my whole life. (side note, I feel like the point of the Skybreakers is not simply to be just for justice's sake, but rather to serve as a beacon of justice for others to see)

Notice how my interpretation of the Ideals also shows the Divine Attributes of Nale. Specifically, how the emulation of the first (in this case, Just) leads to the development of the second (here, Confident). Skybreakers strive to be Just, and in doing so, they gain Confidence in their own ability to know justice. 

 

You know, I think all the orders could follow the same relation to the Divine Attributes. I could be totally wrong, but maybe not. Because we (sort of) know all five Ideals, I'll use the Lightweavers (Shalash: Creative, Honest) as an example. As a Lightweaver progresses through their Truths, they demonstrate their capacity for Creativity through the negation of lies they told before. But at the fifth Truth, they will have admitted their deepest secrets and in doing so developed self-Honesty. 

Additionally, the Fourth ideal is the beginning of the development of the second Attribute. With the Skybreakers, the Ideal of Crusade shows the beginning of a Skybreaker's confidence in their own ability to know justice, because they must believe their quest is a just one. With the Lightweavers, (ROW spoilers)

Spoiler

Shallan's (presumably) Fourth Ideal about killing Testament causes her to integrate Veil into herself and begin to be more honest about her memories. She is still not fully honest, because she realizes she still has holes in her memory.

I believe the Windrunners will follow a similar pattern.

[Tglassy]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:11 PM, Nameless said:

I think that the fourth ideal does cover that. Kaladin was so focused on protecting Dalinar because he was couldn't deal with failing to save him. That's why he failed to say the fourth ideal in Shadesmar. He would've needed to accept that he had to let Dalinar protect himself, and he couldn't do that yet.

The third ideal is covered by the second.  "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" does not give qualifiers.  It includes people you hate, people you disagree with, etc. And yet the third ideal is "I will protect even those I hate."  That's already covered, but it's still an ideal.  

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."  That's so BROAD.  Even Kaladin is daunted by the implications of that Oath.  The Third Ideal is even worse, because it means you can't just pick and choose who you are going to protect.  You are to protect EVERYONE who cannot protect themselves. As Kaladin shows, that weighs on a person. 

But at the fourth ideal...you get a release.  All that pent up frustration about those you couldn't protect, you have to let it go.  Forgive yourself.  Move on.  Look to those you CAN protect.  

Here's something I hadn't caught before.  I'm going through RoW now, and when Vyre is talking to Odium, Odium says "Kaladin has removed himself from the battlefield.  This was unexpected, and could make him even more of a problem". 

I'm starting to wonder if that's part of being a Windrunner.  Like...they aren't supposed to be soldiers.  The second ideal makes it seem so much like they are Soldiers. The Windrunner who gave the quote from the gemstone said "Aren't I supposed to want to help people?"  It just hit me a few minutes ago...I think the Fourth Ideal is when Windrunners stop being soldiers.  I think at the fourth ideal, they retire and go off to help in other ways.  I don't know that they ALL have a mental breakdown, but judging of how most Radiants are, it's possible they do.  

The fifth ideal being "I will allow those who can to protect themselves" would free the Radiant up more.  No longer would Kaladin feel like he has to go with his men.  He wouldn't feel guilty that he can't be with them, to protect them.  Because they can protect themselves.  It would also mean you don't have to join a battlefield anymore.  Soldiers can protect themselves.  Who can't protect themselves?  The normal people.  That's why Syl's first Knight would visit villages.  That's why the radiant from the gemstone was afraid of taking the Fourth ideal.  He didn't understand how you can protect without fighting.  But that's what the fourth ideal is about.  You stop being a soldier, and start focusing on those who cannot protect themselves.  You CAN fight, of course.  You get your plate, after all.  But fighting is always the last resort.  You only do it when no other options are available.  And then you END the fight, because you're a freaking Knight Radiant with living Plate and Blade.  

I can also see "I will protect myself first, and allow those who can to protect themselves" as a good option, as well.  

 

[Letryx13]

8 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Here's something I hadn't caught before.  I'm going through RoW now, and when Vyre is talking to Odium, Odium says "Kaladin has removed himself from the battlefield.  This was unexpected, and could make him even more of a problem". 

I always assumed that meant he opened up the possibility of Urithiru being reclaimed by the radiants.  But I like the idea that Odium meant something along the lines about Kaladin growing to become something more of a problem for him later on, leading to his fourth and fifth ideals.    

I remember how overprotective Kaladin was in WoR, and Zahael even commented about it in RoW.  So I can see the fifth ideal being about letting people protect themselves when they can. I said before that I think it might be about sacrifice, but I think this is more likely.  But I think "I will protect myself" being a part of it at least, is the most likely of all.

[Tglassy]

I just feel like the Oaths are meant to create fully self actualized individuals.  You almost have to be broken in a certain way to attract the right kind of spren.  But by the fifth ideal, you have dealt with your inner brokenness, your issues, You won't be perfect, but you've dealt with whatever broke you, and become something stronger.  

It seems like Bondsmiths are those who used to divide people, and now want to be better.  Nowedon, Dalinar, and even Navani to a certain extent since she was the wife of a warmonger.  All warred in their early lives, and wanted to bring people together later. 

Windrunners seem to struggle with depression and feeling like outsiders.  Their salvation is focusing on others, protecting them, not focusing on themselves.  That's what helps them move forward.  Goodness knows when I'm going through a Depression Spell (which I do frequently), I'm my own worst enemy.  All I want to do is sit and think about how miserable I am.  It's hard to do that when you're busy focusing on helping others.

Lightweavers are lying to themselves, trying to be what they aren't.  They have to accept who they are, forgive themselves for what they have done, and deal with their insecurities.  Only then can they rise. 

Stormbreakers seem to have extreme doubt in their own judgement.  They don't trust themselves to know what is right or what is wrong.  Likely, because they have made horrible, horrible mistakes in those areas in their past, and want something better for themselves and others.  So they follow strict codes.  "I will seek Justice" or "I will put the Law before all else" frees them from having to make decisions, because the Law will determine what those decisions should be.  That sounds like a weak excuse to not be responsible for your actions, but for someone who doesn't trust their own judgement, that is a great relief.  The Third Ideal, where they swear a specific code to follow, further narrows that path, restricting them, but provides more freedom, because they can choose something they greatly believe in, and just follow it.  The Crusade is different, I think, from the other oaths, because you have to DO something to attain it.  It isn't just working through an inner issue, but I think you have to have worked through your issues in order to attain that goal.  The last Ideal, "I am Law", is, ultimately, a reversal of all of that.  In the beginning, you didn't trust yourself.  You had to dedicate yourself to something else because your judgement was flawed.  By the time you get to the fifth ideal, that's all changed.  You DO trust yourself, now.  You understand you DO know the right thing to do.  And so you are freed from those restrictions...but not because you don't have to follow them, but because you no longer need outside oaths to do so.  

 

[Zapata]

4 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I just feel like the Oaths are meant to create fully self actualized individuals.  You almost have to be broken in a certain way to attract the right kind of spren.  But by the fifth ideal, you have dealt with your inner brokenness, your issues, You won't be perfect, but you've dealt with whatever broke you, and become something stronger.  

It seems like Bondsmiths are those who used to divide people, and now want to be better.  Nowedon, Dalinar, and even Navani to a certain extent since she was the wife of a warmonger.  All warred in their early lives, and wanted to bring people together later. 

Windrunners seem to struggle with depression and feeling like outsiders.  Their salvation is focusing on others, protecting them, not focusing on themselves.  That's what helps them move forward.  Goodness knows when I'm going through a Depression Spell (which I do frequently), I'm my own worst enemy.  All I want to do is sit and think about how miserable I am.  It's hard to do that when you're busy focusing on helping others.

Lightweavers are lying to themselves, trying to be what they aren't.  They have to accept who they are, forgive themselves for what they have done, and deal with their insecurities.  Only then can they rise. 

Stormbreakers seem to have extreme doubt in their own judgement.  They don't trust themselves to know what is right or what is wrong.  Likely, because they have made horrible, horrible mistakes in those areas in their past, and want something better for themselves and others.  So they follow strict codes.  "I will seek Justice" or "I will put the Law before all else" frees them from having to make decisions, because the Law will determine what those decisions should be.  That sounds like a weak excuse to not be responsible for your actions, but for someone who doesn't trust their own judgement, that is a great relief.  The Third Ideal, where they swear a specific code to follow, further narrows that path, restricting them, but provides more freedom, because they can choose something they greatly believe in, and just follow it.  The Crusade is different, I think, from the other oaths, because you have to DO something to attain it.  It isn't just working through an inner issue, but I think you have to have worked through your issues in order to attain that goal.  The last Ideal, "I am Law", is, ultimately, a reversal of all of that.  In the beginning, you didn't trust yourself.  You had to dedicate yourself to something else because your judgement was flawed.  By the time you get to the fifth ideal, that's all changed.  You DO trust yourself, now.  You understand you DO know the right thing to do.  And so you are freed from those restrictions...but not because you don't have to follow them, but because you no longer need outside oaths to do so.  

 

And notice the progression from the trait they have at Oath 1 to the trait they develop at Oath 4 & 5. It follows the Divine Attributes. Bondsmiths wanting to be better (and in each example, pious in an unorthodox way) -> becoming a uniting force that can nurture and guide Roshar (hopefully this will become clearer as we get more oaths). Windrunners throwing themselves into protecting others until they are able to lead others in protecting themselves. Lightweavers creatively lying to themselves (and also being creative in general) until they can accept and be honest to themselves. Skybreakers committing to being just by being lawful until they develop the confidence to trust their own sense of right and wrong.

[Cocoa]

On 11/21/2020 at 1:47 AM, Seloun said:

"I will protect people from themselves"

 

On 11/21/2020 at 7:58 AM, TheOneKEA said:

"I will accept that others can protect themselves."

 

On 11/21/2020 at 6:47 AM, Czernobog said:

"I acknowledge that others can protect me, and I am worth protecting."

I like all of these. I think they'd fit very well.

Another possibility I can think of is that, since the fourth idea was about accepting you can't protect everyone, the fifth ideal will be about what you do after that failure. Something like "where I cannot protect, I will rebuild," or "where I cannot protect, I will heal."

[Tglassy]

Every Ideal so far has been said in a moment of pure agony.  Charging Parshendi, standing up against Moash, and now, after having, essentially, committed suicide.  He hadn't hit the ground yet, but he'd jumped.  He was fully ok with smacking head first into the ground, and would have if Dalinar hadn't intervened.  

Wouldn't it be interesting, then, if the fifth ideal was spoken in a moment of quiet peace.  Like, he's working with people, helping them overcome their problems, and he just smiles and says the words.  Boom.  No big traumatic event.  He just...says them, and moves on.  

Like the Lopen, saying the second ideal.  He wasn't having a traumatic moment.  He was comforting someone else, and just said it flippantly.  It doesn't have to be traumatic.  You just have to be at a place where you can say it, and mean it.  

[Dreamwa1ker]

5 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Wouldn't it be interesting, then, if the fifth ideal was spoken in a moment of quiet peace.  Like, he's working with people, helping them overcome their problems, and he just smiles and says the words.  Boom.  No big traumatic event.  He just...says them, and moves on.  

That would be beautiful for Kaladin's story arc. I love it

[Hufdud]

I get the feeling it will kind of build upon the fourth ideal. The fourth is him accepting he can't protect everyone. The fifth is him going into more of a leadership role helping people to protect themselves. So stepping further away from him personally protecting everyone and instead teaching others to protect themselves.

[Vin(Diesel)]

On 11/20/2020 at 11:36 PM, ftl said:

Hmm.  think the fifth oath is going to be something about how you have to protect the whole person - mind, body, and spirit. Most of the protecting that Kaladin has done personally has been about preventing people from being stabbed - understandable, because they're in a war. But more abstract things like protecting a person's independence, protecting their spirit, are still there.

Maybe it'll build on the fourth oath. The fourth oath was only about acceptance, knowing that a Windrunner can't protect everyone. But the fifth might be when he recognizes that some things are more important to protect against than bodily harm. I still think there's more realizations to be had there. Yeah, Kaladin is now accepting that sometimes, he'll fail and not protect someone. But there's a step further - times when Kaladin could step in and protect someone from physical damage, but shouldn't, because protecting that person's autonomy or integrity or honor or something else is also important.

That's a good idea. 

That could dovetail nicely with my theory that Lirin will bond an honorspren, possibly by accident, and people will expect him to start killing. If someone decides to conscript Lirin on pain of death, Kaladin might have to swear the fifth oath and let Lirin die rather than coercing Lirin into fighting. 

I think Kaladin has had a theme of Lirin-related oaths. I can't remember for sure. Obviously his fourth one was. 

[Vin(Diesel)]

I think the fifth oath might build on "Life before death." Kaladin may have to accept that protection is for people, for life, and not the other way around. That life is worth living even when nobody needs protecting, or when he can't be the one to protect people. 

That would be a bit odd, since the fifth oath presumably will give him more superpowers for protecting people. But no stranger than the fourth oath. 

[Letryx13]

On 11/28/2021 at 7:09 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

That's a good idea. 

That could dovetail nicely with my theory that Lirin will bond an honorspren, possibly by accident, and people will expect him to start killing. If someone decides to conscript Lirin on pain of death, Kaladin might have to swear the fifth oath and let Lirin die rather than coercing Lirin into fighting. 

I think Kaladin has had a theme of Lirin-related oaths. I can't remember for sure. Obviously his fourth one was. 

So far, his second through fourth ideals can be connected to his father.  

With the second ideal, he heard his father's voice in his head just before, reminding him someone had choose to do the right thing.

The third ideal is less in sync, but Lirin always chose to help everyone, even Roshone. But with how Kaladin reached this ideal, it seems to be more about Tien.

And the fourth ideal matches, because another quote Kaladin heard in his head a few times was about learning when to care and when to let go.

[Hmmmmmm]

I think that it will be something along the lines of " I will not kill to protect" as that seems to be a struggle he faces over and over again