DrakeMarshall Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Randuir said: When the aviary is sabotaged, the birds fly everywhere in a panic. Birds are assigned to everyone that didn't already have one by random chance. Someone will only get a single twin under sabotage conditions and as a result will end up in a random PM. Huh, so that is a thing. Good to know, thank you. That means Lopen probably is not a priority suspect. 14 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: No way the elims have 4 members, imo. It would make this too hard considering they got an Engineer. If the game was balanced with an active village engineer in mind, 4 elims is entirely plausible, I think. 14 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: While you getting Sak isn't exactly alignment indicative, the eliminator strategy of going for sabotage over Hospitalization + the probable existence of a Village Trapper makes me think that one of the sak's could have ended up with the elims. Especially with the Bridge and Biology Lab already down, making Kokerlii redundant. You’re probably right about the elims having a Sak from the most recent sabotage, but there is nothing preventing a third Sak that somebody isn’t owning up to. I might hesitate about claiming to possess a bird I got via sabotage. Still, this is a point against Devotary, even if I don’t think it outweighs my reasons not to lynch Devotary. Did Devotary claim to get a Sak as a result of a request action or was it random? Edited July 19, 2019 by MrakeDarshall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, MrakeDarshall said: Huh, so that is a thing. Good to know, thank you. That means Lopen probably is not a priority suspect. If the game was balanced with an active village engineer in mind, 4 elims is entirely plausible, I think. You’re probably right about the elims having a Sak from the most recent sabotage, but there is nothing preventing a third Sak that somebody isn’t owning up to. I might hesitate about claiming to possess a bird I got via sabotage. Still, this is a point against Devotary, even if I don’t think it outweighs my reasons not to lynch Devotary. Did Devotary claim to get a Sak as a result of a request action or was it random? 'Twas this post. @Lumgol am I correct assuming that you requested Sak the previous turn? If so, it probably means Devotary's action claim is legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: No way the elims have 4 members, imo. It would make this too hard considering they got an Engineer. While you getting Sak isn't exactly alignment indicative, the eliminator strategy of going for sabotage over Hospitalization + the probable existence of a Village Trapper makes me think that one of the sak's could have ended up with the elims. Especially with the Bridge and Biology Lab already down, making Kokerlii redundant. The elims kind of had to have an engineer, otherwise the sabotage win condition is infeasible, requiring nine cycles of work even if there were no village engineers around to fix anything. Three or four elims depends on what other kinds of roles the elims get, e.g. a doctor probably means only three. I'm pretty sure the saboteur doesn't get to choose whether they receive a Sak, Kokerlii, or Kukupa. 5 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: Main issue with my logic is when you claimed getting Sak, I believe Stick, Lopen and I already claimed Aviar, no? That would be extremely risky for an elim to do, when it would be easier to just figure our the pattern and lie. With you knowing the name of Sooty Albatross, Elephant Bird and Monk Parakeet, it shouldn't have been too difficult. Of the group of claimers, Stick and Ventyl are probably the most likely to be elims, given the former claimed almost immediately (good elim strat) and the latter didn't claim at all, but was announced by Lopen. This information is unfortunately all for naught if the actual engineer just lied and said they got a regular bird, but acting under that assumption if it's not true would be a fatal mistake and really get us nowhere, analysis wise. The three of you had indeed claimed Aviar. I'm pretty sure Ventyl can't have been the one to sabotage the Aviary, as he would have received a full Aviar rather than half of one. Unless it turns out that Stick was the one to sabotage the Aviary, it's likely that whoever did ended up lying and claiming a regular bird or just never claimed at all. Drake, I did specifically request a Sak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said: The elims kind of had to have an engineer, otherwise the sabotage win condition is infeasible, requiring nine cycles of work even if there were no village engineers around to fix anything. Three or four elims depends on what other kinds of roles the elims get, e.g. a doctor probably means only three. I'm pretty sure the saboteur doesn't get to choose whether they receive a Sak, Kokerlii, or Kukupa. The three of you had indeed claimed Aviar. I'm pretty sure Ventyl can't have been the one to sabotage the Aviary, as he would have received a full Aviar rather than half of one. Unless it turns out that Stick was the one to sabotage the Aviary, it's likely that whoever did ended up lying and claiming a regular bird or just never claimed at all. Drake, I did specifically request a Sak. Not exactly. GM's only would need to refrain from including extra airship parts to balance out the lack of Engineer. With the existence of the sky crane and engines, it appears to me it was a deliberate choice. Also, while the existence of village Engineers should help balance this a little more in our favor, the fact that we haven't seen any evidence so far and the fact that it takes 2 repair actions to fix a part versus 1 to destroy it, means that we'd need something like 3 or 4 to make having more than 3 elims feasible, which certainly doesn't appear to be the case. I'm a lot less on board with the whole "saboteur can't get one of the twins" thing, since holding that belief essentially means two villagers get hard cleared. I doubt any GM would really balance it that way. I honestly don't believe Alvron's claim of exploring the sky crane, so if anyone is lying about their bird, I'd wager him. Edited July 19, 2019 by Amanuensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Hm. I can see why that is problematic. Even if I am honestly still quite convinced of Devotary’s innocence. Is the saboteur allowed to choose what kind of bird they get? Are other requests still honored when the Aviary is sabotaged or does it become completely random? Did any of the other people who got Aviar specifically get the ones they requested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTess Posted July 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, MrakeDarshall said: Is the saboteur allowed to choose what kind of bird they get? No, and they follow the same rules as anyone else getting a random bird (IE: they'd get half of a kukupa twin), they just are guaranteed to get one of the aviar options Quote Are other requests still honored when the Aviary is sabotaged or does it become completely random? Did any of the other people who got Aviar specifically get the ones they requested? All other requests are honored, as the aviary is only sabotaged after the birds are handed out. People that got a bird from the aviary through requesting one where ineligible for getting an additional bird because of the sabotage. Edited July 19, 2019 by Randuir grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) I feel like an idiot for not asking Lum if she requested Sak earlier, though I'm fairly certain that's what she did, and would explain Devotary getting Sak over her. Devotary. Alvron. I really hope I'm not letting an elim out the noose here, though. Edited July 19, 2019 by Amanuensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Amanuensis said: Not exactly. GM's only would need to refrain from including extra airship parts to balance out the lack of Engineer. With the existence of the sky crane and engines, it appears to me it was a deliberate choice. Also, while the existence of village Engineers should help balance this a little more in our favor, the fact that we haven't seen any evidence so far and the fact that it takes 2 repair actions to fix a part versus 1 to destroy it, means that we'd need something like 3 or 4 to make having more than 3 elims feasible. I'm a lot less on board with the whole "saboteur can't get one of the twins" thing, since holding that belief essentially means two villagers get hard cleared. I doubt any GM would really balance it that way. I honestly don't believe Alvron's claim of exploring the sky crane, so if anyone is lying about their bird, I'd wager him. There were 10 starting airship parts, and nine of them were intact. The elims can sabotage one part as a faction action, and one part as an engineer action. Not having an engineer cripples the sabotage win condition. A single village engineer who submits actions every cycle can ensure that the elims can't destroy the ship until cycle eight even if the elims are able to double sabotage every cycle, which is infeasible as there's no way the elim engineer remains uncaught for that long if they submit a sabotage action every cycle. Two village engineers can keep the ship afloat for longer still. Alvron's claim to have explored the sky crane is odd, as Stick announced C1 that there weren't any secret rules or roles. Alvron obviously knew the naming conventions for non-Aviar, so he could have just claimed to have tried for an Aviar and failed. 1 minute ago, Randuir said: No, and theu follow the same rules as anyone else getting a random bird (IE: they'd get half of a kukupa twin), they just are guaranteed to get one of the aviar options So Lopen or Ventyl could have been the ones to sabotage the Aviary. I suppose that does make more sense than having two players be able to prove they didn't commit the sabotage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (2) Devotary of Spontaneity: TheMightyLopen, _Stick_, (2) Alvron: MrakeDarshall, Amanuensis, (1) Burnt Spaghetti: shanerockes, (1) _Stick_: StrikerEZ, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Lopen has less of an alibi now, but Alvron never had one to begin with. He's also the main viable candidate, which certainly helps. I think lynch Alvron, hospitalise Lopen makes sense for a greater chance of catching the elim engineer. I doubt the trapper is around at this point though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: (3) Alvron: MrakeDarshall, Amanuensis, Devotary of Spontaneity, (2) Devotary of Spontaneity: TheMightyLopen, _Stick_, (1) Burnt Spaghetti: shanerockes, (1) _Stick_: StrikerEZ, For the record, I would be cool with a tie between Alvron and Stick. He can't be here to defend himself, so the least we could do is let his Gods decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: For the record, I would be cool with a tie between Alvron and Stick. He can't be here to defend himself, so the least we could do is let his Gods decide. The only way I see that happening is if you or Drake switch your votes to Stick, which would give us a three way tie. Edit: Also Stick is here, and would probably object. Edited July 19, 2019 by Devotary of Spontaneity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said: The only way I see that happening is if you or Drake switch your votes to Stick, which would give us a three way tie. Stick could always be kind enough to vote for herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick. Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) Edit: no, I won’t vote for myself Edited July 19, 2019 by _Stick_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, _Stick_ said: Edit: no, I won’t vote for myself How selfish! Stick Edited July 19, 2019 by Amanuensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick. Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Amanuensis said: How selfish! Stick! I can still vote for Alv in self defense xD I don’t know if I should actually do that though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (2) Alvron: MrakeDarshall, Devotary of Spontaneity, (2) _Stick_: StrikerEZ, Amanuensis, (2) Devotary of Spontaneity: TheMightyLopen, _Stick_, (1) Burnt Spaghetti: shanerockes, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, _Stick_ said: I can still vote for Alv in self defense xD I don’t know if I should actually do that though... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick. Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Is exploring the Sky Crane and the consequential lack of alibi the only reason behind the Alv lynch? This lynch is so weird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Just now, _Stick_ said: Is exploring the Sky Crane and the consequential lack of alibi the only reason behind the Alv lynch? This lynch is so weird Like when you asked about Devotary earlier, really it's just a matter of PoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick. Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 I just don’t think an elim would make the claim that Alv did without thinking it through. Thinking it through would’ve made it clear to him that making such a claim won’t work since there are no secrets in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick. Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Sorry if you’re a villager, Alv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Back to Alv. Sorry if I scared you, Rand and Bard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Ooooo self preservation. Interesting. Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devotary of Spontaneity Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Alvron Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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