[Theory] Jasnah is homosexual

[Numb]

Before I start let me just say there isn't much proof of this. On my second read through I came across this exert in the marriage discussion

 

"It doesn't bother you at all?" Jasnah said. "The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?"

 

The simplest explanation for Jasnah adding in the last part is that she merely doesn't trust/like men and not that her sexual orientation is different. I just find this a rather boring explanation. Another female character having distrust of men due to some early trauma is just too cliche for me. We could also assume she is jealous/hates men because of very strict gender roles in her society. 

 

Let's look at Alethi society and Vorin religion for a second here and the possible reasons for Jasnah not believing/denying in the Almightly or Vorinism

• Strict gender roles
• Intentionally altering/destroying history
• No compelling proof in his existence

At first I thought it was logical for a scholar like Jasnah to not believe in the Almighty since intentionally destroying the truth goes against everything a scholar like her would believe.

 

There is however one issue I recognized, she believes in Voidbringers. We don't' know much about Jasnah before Shallan meets her but judging from the prelude in WoR I think it's safe to say she didn't believe in Voidbringers before she went to Shadesmar. The problem is if she believes in Voidbringers why wouldn't she believe in the thing that is almost always linked with them, The Almighty? As a Scholar it seems logical proof of the one should prove the other exists but she still denies it.

 

This got me thinking that maybe her motivation against Vorinism is not purely logical. On it's own this doesn't actually say anything about Jasnah's sexual orientation, if anything it just further proves she doesn't believe that a persons role should be determined by their gender. This is where the exert at the start comes in. Adding in "particularly a man" is very specific. Her problem with marriage isn't just that it's limiting but that it's to a man. We haven't seen any same sex relations in Stormlight and judging by the restrictions by Vorinism I can't see a society like the Alethi ever allowing such a thing. Jasnah isn't emotionless, she just puts up walls so no one can see what hides beneath. Maybe she can't accept the Almighty because that would mean she could never find love or happiness.

 

 

Anyway that's my crazy theory. I doubt it's right but I find it more interesting than the alternative, tell me what you guys think

Edited March 19, 2014 by Numb

[Senor Feesh]

I dunno, I read that line and simply saw Jasnah as a feminist rather than a lesbian. Considering the gender divide in Vorin culture, and Jasnah's general attitude towards the status quo, I think this is less of a stretch.<br /><br />You could be right, but there's far too little data to base that kind of speculation I feel.

[Sabrina Stormshard]

It would be nice to see Brandon tackle some LGBT characters in Stormlight, I think it'd be a really interesting setting to see how that story plays out. I've kinda seen Jasnah as 'married to the job' with her scholarship, but could present an interesting angle for some great character-building

[Argent]

Ah, another Jasnah thread I can pick on! Good, good...

 

The "particularly a man" part has been somewhat accepted in the community to suggest that Jasnah has had some pretty negative experiences with men - or a single man, perhaps Amaram (given how hard she was cold-shouldering him in the WoR prologue) - in the past. Her behavior and words in The Way of Kings when she takes Shallan on her... philosophy lesson supports this.

 

Now, onto religious views! Just a few days ago I myself had to deal with the question "do you believe in X" (aliens, in my case), and in deciding how to answer, became aware that it's a meaningless question. There are surprisingly many ways to interpret this, and they are pretty different from one another. For practical reasons I'll use "the Almighty" instead of "aliens" here, but it applies across the board.

• Do you believe the Almighty exists?
  • Yes, and we define the Almighty the same way [the Vorin answer]
  • Yes / Maybe, but I define the Almighty different from you
• Do you worship the Almighty?
  • Yes [the Vorin answer]
  • No, because I don't believe in the supernatural. There may be a natural being similar to the Almighty, however - but I still don't worship it
  • No, because I don't believe in the supernatural. 

There are a few other ways somebody could respond to those questions (which are really the same question, "Do you believe in the Almighty?" but broken down). Jasnah - and any atheist who has put some thought into his or her (lack of) beliefs - will always choose the second option. Jasnah acknowledges that there might very well be a being out there, one that became the basis for the Vorin Almighty - and she is right, this is (the Shardholder of) Honor. But she doesn't recognize it / him as a god, a divine being, a supernatural entity - and therefore doesn't worship him.

 

I explain all this so I can just say that her stance on the Voidbringers is the same. She doesn't believe there is anything supernatural about them, but is pretty confident that they exist. I wish we had a good analogue from our world... 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Argent

[Moogle]

There is however one issue I recognized, she believes in Voidbringers. We don't' know much about Jasnah before Shallan meets her but judging from the prelude in WoR I think it's safe to say she didn't believe in Voidbringers before she went to Shadesmar. The problem is if she believes in Voidbringers why wouldn't she believe in the thing that is almost always linked with them, The Almighty? As a Scholar it seems logical proof of the one should prove the other exists but she still denies it.

 

Why should one prove the other exists? Seems a stretch to me. Humanity constantly ended up in wars against a menace, and these wars were devastating. It keeps happening again and again, and so people began to speak of it in mythological terms. Jasnah believed there was a real world correlate to the Voidbringers, monsters that attacked humanity in huge wars, not that the Voidbringers of Vorin mythology and all the associated religious baggage was true.

 

These religious beliefs would have spiraled out of real world correlate, much like cavemen in our world would have blamed evil spirits when they became sick. There is a real-world correlate (disease-causing viruses and bacteria) but it's certainly not mythological. And just because there's something evil doesn't mean there's something good to balance it out.

 

If the Almighty was a real god that exists, someone like Jasnah would anticipate that they might actually answer prayers. Surprise surprise, Honor hasn't been capable of doing that for a few thousand years. Her disbelief makes a good amount of sense, considering there really is no Almighty anymore.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

I got the impression that Jasnah believes in the Almighty, but doesn't believe that the Almighty was God (i.e., the Almighty as taught by Vorinism).  She believes that morality does not need to be sourced from God.  Due to her studies and her interactions with Ivory and other spren she may even be aware of the personage s of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium and be aware of Honor's death.  Her knowledge of these people and Vorinism's lack of discussion of these beings of power would certainly lead her to retain her skepticism of the Almighty as God (especially as taught by Vorinism) in spite of the coming of surgebinders, voidbringers, and the Everstorm.

 

Dalinar shares that he now believes something similar.  He accepts that the Almighty existed and is now dead but does not believe that the Almighty was God.  In contrast though, he still believes in God and absolute right and wrong.  He believes that the Almighty (as taught by Vorinism) never was God and that God is greater than anything he knows specifically about.

[Cheeky-eyes]

I thought the 'particularly a man' addition had more to do with the strict gender roles in the Alethi society than anything else, and her not marrying could be due to her feeling that she never found an intellectual equal. It also may be that she doesn't feel comfortable in a relationship with anyone, so if sexuality were her motivation here she might be asexual. But as it has been stated above more information is definitely needed to give more support one way or the other. 

 

(On a biased note I hope it is this because that would be super relevant to my interests. ) 

[Shards of Mist]

Jasnah is asexual at this point in the book.  I don't think she could see herself having an intimate relationship with anyone.  Why?  She doesn't trust anyone.  Someone cannot love another if she cannot trust another.  She doesn't even trust her own family enough to let them in.  She has assassin's at every corner because she doesn't trust the people she's placed them with.  We've heard from Navani's character that Jasnah wouldn't let her be a "mother".  We see in the prologue that Gavilar casts suspicion towards her.  Very clearly her trust issues run deep and I think it will take some serious work on her part to ever get over that.

 

How would it happen?  Well, who is the one person she seems to respect in the world?  Dalinar. 

 

 

"Though at times he lacks foresight, Adolin has a good heart -- as good as that of his father, who may be the best man I have ever known.  

 

 

Why does she feel this way?  Honor.  I think Dalinar (and by extension now Adolin) is the only really "honorable" man she knows.  He does what is right, not because of how it benefits him, but because of how it benefits society.  

 

So what does this all lead up to?  I don't think Jasnah is homosexual.  I may be proven wrong, sure, but I just think she doesn't view men in a positive way because almost every man she's known has been dishonorable.

 

What it will lead to, IMO, is her discovering a man more honorable than Dalinar.  A man smarter than Dalinar who could conceivably even cause her to challenge her worldviews.  A man who holds much of the world's fate in his abilities to protect it.  And I don't think she'll care if that man is 15 years younger than her.  Call me out if you like, but it's the pairing that makes sense to me and the one I hope for.

[Aminar]

She may or may not be a lesbian, but there is some strong evidence she was molested as a child. First off, she's a Radiant. Meaning at some point she's been broken. Then we have her almost complete asexuality as shown, and her complete disregard towards men, as detailed above. Lastly we have Navani's questions about what happened to her little girl. As soon as Jasnah hit adolescence she became aloof, detached, and developed into the Jasnah we know. Young women that are molested respond in a very narrow spectrum of ways. Either they become almost hypersexual, or they gain a strong fear of intimacy. Sometimes both.

Jasnah certainly seems to fit this, and I'm sure we'll learn more as time goes on.

[Numb]

Some really good arguments against this. Interesting in the religion aspect the most but a bit tied down now to answer. One thing is I hope there was no sexual abuse in her past. I just don't really see how Navani or her father would allow such a thing to happen but we also don't know why she assassinated one of the Ghostbloods. We already have Shallan who had an incredibly abusive father figure so having the only way a woman can be radiant as abuse when they were younger just seems too stale.

[Argent]

Except Shallan didn't become a Radiant because of an abusive father. If anything, it was her mother who was the problem - Lin Davar didn't turn into a nutjob until after he took on Shallan's blame. I am not saying that Jasnah was abused by her family necessarily (though Navani does mention that Gavilar was different in private than he was in public), but I like the general argument a lot.

[Numb]

Oh yes that's true she had pattern before she killed her mother so we don't actually know what caused her to become suitable for a bond. My apologies. 

[Aminar]

Sanderson really seems to be taking this story down an exploration of mental health. Having an accurate portrayal of an adult who was molested as a child fits into that too. (Just another thought to add to my suppositions.)

As to her mother/father allowing it. We really don't know her father, but he strikes me as the controlling type. And very few parents knowingly allow their child to be mollested. That doesn't stop it from happening. In Alethi society odds are you quietly remove the offending bastard and move on. I'm sure there is more than a little victim blaming. It would be even worse if Gavilar were the issue, as he'd be almost beyond repurcussions... There would be significant shame on all sides, with little discussion from the family. It would be danced around significantly. Like I said earlier, we'll see what broke Jasnah later. I hope I'm wrong, but it fits with the series too well.

[Shardlet]

One thing is I hope there was no sexual abuse in her past. I just don't really see how Navani or her father would allow such a thing to happen...

 

It is not unheard of for parents to be completely unaware that their child is being abused.  Especially when said parents have strong compelling interests outside of the home.  Even without that, it is not uncommon for abuse to occur without the parents' knowledge or even as a result of some form of neglect.

 

Edit: ninja'd by Aminar.  Guess I should refresh before starting a post.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Shardlet

[Luke.spence]

It doesn't matter if Jasnah is gay, The Lopen attracts all and none shall stand before his two-handed, glowy attractiveness!

 

Note: The above statement is purely in jest and in no way is meant to imply that homosexuality is a choice and that one can be "made/turned" straight.

[Crysanja]

i think we do not have the right understanding what it means to be a women in the Alethi society.

 

for example, when Shallan reaches the Shattered Plains, she is invited by Dalinar to stay in his camp.

this seems logical to us, but she is not just invited to stay as a guest, but it is implyed, that she will be one of Dalinars scribes.

 

However she places herselfe with another high prince, but she will be still a scribe there.

 

this shows that there is a real need for scribs, and what do you need most? scribes you can trust.

so when an Alethi women marries its commonly accepted and required for her to become the "head" scrib of her husband.

that she keeps the books for the familiy, and maybe to manage the house.

 

 

Jasnah has a very different life in mind. for her its most importand to be free of all thouse obligations, because she wants to be a scholar.

even more, a traveling scholar, to research all kinds of sources.

 

all thouse things which are importand for Jasnah cant be done by an Alethi man. thouse cant be scholars, unless they become ardents or "heretics"!?.(this is actualy very interesting with Amram, but thats another topic)

 

 

therefor Alethi men are only limiting for Jasnah, they would steal her freedom to travel alot, her time to work on the things she thinks are importand. she would be required to have children, thouse would limit her even more.

 

 

Shallan seems to realy want to be Jasnahs ward, if she would marry, this might be no longer possible. because she could no longer follow Jasnah

 

 

Jasnah is hunted from the things she saw Szeth do, when he killed her father.

so she made it her mission to learn all about it, and doing/trying that she found out about the "voidbringers"

 

 

---

i dont think Gavliar abused Jasnah - this would make her missing much less likely

maybe it was someone else if at all.

[+eveorjoy]

Nothing against the original poster, but it bothers me that if a woman either doesn't like a man's role in society or doesn't appear to have a man she is interested in people assume she is Lesbian. I've know plenty of lesbians who like men, they just aren't romantically or sexually attracted to them. Asexuals aren't interested in men either. And then of course an individual could be heterosexual, but disagree with society's gender roles, feel those of the opposite sex abuse power with their role, and are so absorbed in their work that they don't have time to pursue a relationship with the few "good ones" that could be out there.

 

At this point we have only seen Jasnah as a scholar. Yes that is a large part of her personality, but that is not all she is. She could be homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual, or asexual for all we know. I doubt she is an LGBT character because Brandon has admitted that he doesn't have the knowledge to give such a character the respect they deserve at this time. Regardless, we really don't know and nothing in the text, including her bias against men and a man's role Vorinism, gives us any clue as to her sexual orientation.

 

So if you want to dream of Jasnah being a relationship with either Kaladin or Shallan, that's fine. Currently either choice is possible. But to say she doesn't like men and is therefore a lesbian suggests an unfair stereotype of lesbians.

[Argent]

I felt the OP nudged a few stereotypes in the ribs (heretic homosexual, doesn't believe in god, believes in his mythical enemies, the demons - ring bells?), but I figured it was accidental and not worth potentially derailing the thread for.

[Aminar]

I felt the OP nudged a few stereotypes in the ribs (heretic homosexual, doesn't believe in god, believes in his mythical enemies, the demons - ring bells?), but I figured it was accidental and not worth potentially derailing the thread for.

Agreed. Beyond that, it's a theory, and the evidence is up to interpretation. It's not offensive to see common character development tropes and call out what they might mean. Especially given that Jasnah is a highly respected and competent character. She'd be a credit to LGBT literature, for not having a steretyped "lesbian personality." Beyond that, there are women who have had such negative experiences with men that they decide to change sexualities. No, not every Lesbian has done this, but some have, making it an appropriate characterization path when handled with care an respect.

[Numb]

I admit I know a lot more about homosexual men than women unfortunately and didn't mean to offend with any stereotypes(Didn't realize there were any). With many of the current theories around Jasnah revolving around some form of abusive childhood I merely thought it would be interesting to try look at it from another angle. I apologize if I offended anyone, it was not my intent.

 

There are a few other ways somebody could respond to those questions (which are really the same question, "Do you believe in the Almighty?" but broken down). Jasnah - and any atheist who has put some thought into his or her (lack of) beliefs - will always choose the second option. Jasnah acknowledges that there might very well be a being out there, one that became the basis for the Vorin Almighty - and she is right, this is (the Shardholder of) Honor. But she doesn't recognize it / him as a god, a divine being, a supernatural entity - and therefore doesn't worship him.

 

I explain all this so I can just say that her stance on the Voidbringers is the same. She doesn't believe there is anything supernatural about them, but is pretty confident that they exist. I wish we had a good analogue from our world... 

 

What I find interesting is that Jasnah seems to have been bonded with a Spren the longest out of any character and knows the most about Spren society/Shadesmar. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have found out anything about honor throughout her studies. The Stormfather knows that Honor is the Almighty and the Highspren at least have documentation about the prior desoluations(Based on the Epilogue) so it's confusing to me that Jasnah doesn't know about honor or at least doesn't believe in honor being a "god". Honor/Cultivation did create her species did they not? 

 

Obviously I could be assuming Jasnah is far more aware of the cosmere than she is. On an unrelated note Pattern did say that Shadesmar seems more dangerous than he thinks it should be or was. I wonder if this hampered her study into the Voidbringers since with a 6 year bond I can only imagine how much more knowledgeable Ivory is compared to Syl. Although now that I think about it maybe she was convinced they existed because she knew from the Spren but couldn't convince people without evidence in the physical realm. 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Numb

[junior]

 

 Honor/Cultivation did create her species did they not? 

 

 

 

 

The beliefs of Vorinism include a belief that humans originally came from elsewhere.  It's unclear whether this belief is due to humanity being refugees, or whether it's more of a "cast out of the Garden of Eden" sort of thing.

 

Getting back to the OP, wasn't a certain character in Alloy of Law Sanderson's first character with same sex attraction?  If true, that would indicate that Jasnah wasn't created with that in mind (though nothing would stop Sanderson from adding it to Jasnah's personality later on).

 

[+eveorjoy]

 I know you didn't mean to be offensive, Numb. It just seems that is a label given to any character not paired up these days. Elsa from Frozen has also been given this label for nothing more than disinterest.

 

I may have overreacted, and speculation is fine.

[Isomere]

I also thought her reference to men odd. It seems being beholden to a woman is better in Jasnah's eyes than being beholden to a man. It could be just a feminist reaction against the enforced gender roles that are so entrenched in Vorin culture. It could be misandry, and a childhood abuse seems a reasonable backstory. It could also be homosexuality, but we have so little evidence for or against that its hard to tell. She is portrayed as asexual with no time or interest in romantic affairs.

One person I discussed this with thinks Jasnah might be a sociopath and is incapable of certain emotions like empathy and selfless love. She allows logic and honor to guide her choices rather than the whims of emotion that others suffer from. An interesting option that I haven't seen discussed much, but the way she was described as a child seems to fit. Aloof, emotionally unattached, superior. Some of her behavior toward Shallan argues against sociopathy, but there are many ways to see kindness and not all are based on empathy. With her incredible intellect she could have developed some very advanced coping mechanisms.

[junior]

Some of her behavior toward Shallan argues against sociopathy, but there are many ways to see kindness and not all are based on empathy.

 

There was an article I read a month or two ago.  A happily married researcher, who had a relatively good relationship with those around him, was conducting some comparative brain scans.  And as he was looking over the scans, he realized that the scan he'd used as a baseline seemed to show the same sorts of brain activity that a sociopath would have.  The problem?  He'd used his *own* brain scans as the baseline.

 

Fortunately, instead of going into denial over it, he talked things over with those around him.  And their conclusions were that yes, he really did often show sociopathic traits.  But due to influence or environment or some combination of effects while growing up, he managed to behave in such a way that his sociopathic traits didn't cripple his ability to make and maintain friendships.

[Radiant_thoughts]

Makes sense.