[M:Secret History Spoilers] Drifter

[echaozh]

I think perhaps when all the original shardholders and Hoid set out to shatter Adonalsium, they all took an oath like "I will do good with the power given to me and not use it to hurt people". After all, if they knew they would be granted enormous power, they should have set up a threshold or something as to who should be allowed into the group.

 

And that may also have been why Hoid is working hard on all the worlds as the shardholders are very capable of hurting people. His goal may be trying to enforce their original oath onto them.

 

As to Ruin being the bad guy... Think about it, is the US a bad guy to tear down a dictatorship? Preservation said something in Secret History that sounds very similar to what every dictator claims why the mobs should not be given power and why changing the supreme leader is a bad thing.

 

Of course, Ruin by itself is not a good thing, and you need Harmony to make the whole thing work. No pains, no gains. What you want is the gains after the pains.

[Ari]

I think perhaps when all the original shardholders and Hoid set out to shatter Adonalsium, they all took an oath like "I will do good with the power given to me and not use it to hurt people". After all, if they knew they would be granted enormous power, they should have set up a threshold or something as to who should be allowed into the group.

 

And that may also have been why Hoid is working hard on all the worlds as the shardholders are very capable of hurting people. His goal may be trying to enforce their original oath onto them.

 

As to Ruin being the bad guy... Think about it, is the US a bad guy to tear down a dictatorship? Preservation said something in Secret History that sounds very similar to what every dictator claims why the mobs should not be given power and why changing the supreme leader is a bad thing.

 

Of course, Ruin by itself is not a good thing, and you need Harmony to make the whole thing work. No pains, no gains. What you want is the gains after the pains.

 

Yeah no, they can't have taken any such binding oath if you take the actions of Ruin and Odium into account, and Dominion, based on his followers, seems to largely be just as bad.

[Blaze1616]

Yeah no, they can't have taken any such binding oath if you take the actions of Ruin and Odium into account, and Dominion, based on his followers, seems to largely be just as bad.

 

Keep in mind that the Shard's intent eventually overpowers the Vessel's mind. Given Preservation's love for TLR, I'm more than comfortable believing that enough time has passed for such a thing to occur to all the Shards, and so of course Odium is a bad guy, it is his intent. 

 

And once again, nothing suggested that the Elantrians were bad guys. Their dialogue and actions far more represented scientists and scholars.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Blaze1616

[echaozh]

Kelsier is the founder of the 17th Shard, and hunting Hoid to punch in his face and beat the rust outta him.

 

Hoid is investing in space travel because Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow, and it's easier for Hoid to travel in the Physical Realm with a space ship.

 

Very elegant and consistent theory.

[dyring]

seems unlikely that the 17:th shard isnt older then Kelsier. Member, even leader perhaps, but founder?

 

If I remember right, Elantris was something in the neighborhood of 300 years before mistborn right, and white sand also one of the earliest, so near elantris.

 

Kelsier just seems to be to late onto the stage to found the 17:th shard. Spec considering the hints that the dragon from dragonsteel is a member, or atleast works with them.

 

Dragonsteel was on Yolen right, and Yolen seem to be hidden.

 

 

As to why Kelsier got whoped, he was a beginner there, no matter his skill in fighting elsewhere. Hoid have been in that realm much more, and given his comment on pain, if Kelsier had been more experienced he could have just ignored the pain there and kept going at that point - atleast as long as hoid was unwilling to hurt his actual soul.

[The Invested Beard]

Also there is no telling what sort of training in fighting Hoid had before the restriction was placed on him.

[Tri]

I would like to think that if you knew you could feel no pain, your fighting style would change drastically to an opponent who still thinks he can feel pain.

 

For instance, no dodging would be necessary. Fighters feign attacks to get into a better position for another attack, Hoid wouldn't need to fall for those any longer.

 

So no matter how superior an opponent could potentially be in fighting, they would be at a distinct disadvantage no matter what.

 

While Hoid MAY have been the superior fighter, I don't think it would have really mattered. His superior understanding of that realm gave him every advantage he needed.

[Captain Cosmere]

The thing about Hoid that stands out the most to me when I think about his appearances is when Shallan hugged him in Words of Radiance...and he was utterly dumbfounded.  How many times have we seen Hoid completely shocked by anything? 

 

Even Adolin (I think) mentioned that no one hugs Wit.  No one actually likes Wit.  It's like hugging a whitespine or somesuch. 

 

I think that is significant.  I very much mistrust Hoid.  Notice that none of those who describe Hoid as an "old friend" actually trust him and most of them are actively working at counter purposes to anything he tries to do.  I'm giving Hoid some serious side-eye for the nonce. 

[Sand Master]

Who would you call the ultimate antagonist of Mistborn then? If not the godly mastermind directly opposing our protagonists?

No what I'm saying is that no bad guys thinks they're bad. They simply have goals perpendicular to the "heroes" of our story. And usually they have less moral restriction than our protagonists. This, to me, describes Hoid perfectly. Sure his methods align with our protagonists (in almost every example excluding Secret History) but remember: this is Brandon Sanderson. The guy behind the greatest foreshadowing and reveals of our time.

If Hoid turns out to be little more than a "good guy" running around trying to "save" the cosmere, I'm going to be a little disappointed.

I would still call Ruin the antagonist of MIstborn. He is, as you say, the one directly opposing the protagonists. However, there is a difference between "bad guy" and "antagonist". One implies morality, the other does not.

[Shardmancer]

Hey Love to be back,

 

A lot of great points - just wanted to note I saw people saying once a shard is shattered it cannot be remade. I am thinking if shards can be combined (Harmony) why can you not recombine the shattered pieces to make the shard and then recombine the 16 shard to make Adonalsium

[menacekop]

Keep in mind that Drifter and Wit are the same man, 300 years apart. When Hoid comments to Shallan, we're missing about 300 years of context from when he puts the beat down on Kelsier.

 

Doesn't Hoid also have the ability to move through time (but only forward)?  I thought we had WoB or book reference on this somewhere.  If that is the case then 300 years may have past for the world but probably not quite that many for Hoid himself.

[Shardbearer]

Yeah, it's doubtful that Hoid has experienced all of those 300 years.

[Landis963]

Hey Love to be back,

 

A lot of great points - just wanted to note I saw people saying once a shard is shattered it cannot be remade. I am thinking if shards can be combined (Harmony) why can you not recombine the shattered pieces to make the shard and then recombine the 16 shard to make Adonalsium

 

There's a theory floating around that this is exactly what Drifter's endgame is: gather together Investiture from all the Shards so he can leverage that Connection to recombine Adonalsium (with someone at its head.  Who, him?). However, it doesn't seem to explain why he sent the letter in Way of Kings to his contact in the 17th Shard, which is all about how dangerous Odium is, and what a tragedy it is that he's Splintered as many Shards as he has, and what a shame that the 17th Shard doesn't get off their lazy rear ends and do something about a problem for a change.  

[Blaze1616]

Doesn't Hoid also have the ability to move through time (but only forward)?  I thought we had WoB or book reference on this somewhere.  If that is the case then 300 years may have past for the world but probably not quite that many for Hoid himself.

 

Yes, Hoid has a means to pass time without experiencing it fully. That doesn't mean he just jumped to 300 years later though.

[menacekop]

Yes, Hoid has a means to pass time without experiencing it fully. That doesn't mean he just jumped to 300 years later though.

 

Ya, it is still a long time in which I'm sure LOTS has happened.

 

You know what I would love to see is a secret histories book based around Hoids perspective and all the things he has been doing in the back ground of all these books.

[Shardmancer]

Passing through time without experiencing it could that be Pulser with Duralumin or Maybe Compounding.?

[JosephOfHathsin]

Hoid's book can't come soon enough lol I for one sure am excited to see Spankys story to becoming a floating cognitive ship! I'm not sure if it's likely Hoid's plan is to take Adonalsium power for himself, maybe rebuilding the power, maybe. Perhaps if the 17th shard was okay with the shards becoming their own entities (I.e. Frost seems content with them killing Ado and taking the powers), than it would make sense that Hoid's plan is to repair the investitures, just seeing how he's going against the 17th shard passive aggressively lol. I for one would defiantly like to see Hoid coming to respect Kelsier and him bringing Kel in on whatever Hoid's goal is, because seeing just how savage Hoid can get in this book, it's put a scale of awesomeness that I just need more of cause rust I had no idea what I was missing out on. Lol

[dayman]

Hoid beating Kelsier down didn't really seem that harsh to me. I mean, Kelsier was not an unknown quantity to Hoid...he knew what Kelsier was all about while he was living.  Plus, Kelsier was assaulting almost everyone he met in the cognitive realm (Hoid, both of his Gods/creators, etc.).

 

Hoid gave Kelsier what he had coming. Also, I can't see Hoid as a bad guy b/c he's constantly aiding the heroes of various worlds. 

[Darkness]

At this point I don't really see Hoid as a good guy or a bad guy, antagonist or protagonist. He's more like an 'agonist' to me, a guy with an agenda certainly, but not specifically against or for any of our heroes, his game transcends them; both in time and in magnitude. I'm really excited for when Hoid is brought to the forefront to be a main character. But when that happens I don't really expect him to appear as protagonist or antagonist, more like he'll be his own focus and all our other characters will draw their lines around him (if that makes any sense). He'll be a major plot driver, but not necessarily on the 'good' or 'bad' team.

[WayneSpren]

Hoid beating Kelsier down didn't really seem that harsh to me. I mean, Kelsier was not an unknown quantity to Hoid...he knew what Kelsier was all about while he was living.  Plus, Kelsier was assaulting almost everyone he met in the cognitive realm (Hoid, both of his Gods/creators, etc.).

 

Hoid gave Kelsier what he had coming. Also, I can't see Hoid as a bad guy b/c he's constantly aiding the heroes of various worlds.

I don't see Hoid beating up Kelsier as very harsh because Hoid can't beat up regular humans. He's not allowed to, or unable to. So if a cognitive shadows strolls up in front of you, and you haven't got in a good punchin' in years, you might respond the same as Hoid did.

[DreamEternal]

I don't see Hoid beating up Kelsier as very harsh because Hoid can't beat up regular humans. He's not allowed to, or unable to. So if a cognitive shadows strolls up in front of you, and you haven't got in a good punchin' in years, you might respond the same as Hoid did.

*facepalm*

Yeah, very heroic.

Edited February 25, 2016 by DreamEternal

[natc]

What does heroism have to do with this?

He's not a hero.

[ChaceWiggin]

More and more I'm beginning to suspect that Hoid is not the "good guy" we perceive him to be.

Or rather, he's not the good guy from the viewpoint of all our protagonists across cosmere novels.

From this book we learn that he was present around the breaking of Adonaslium, but did not participate. In fact, it seemed as though he was on good terms with some of the original 16. But they decided to kill/rip apart Adonalsium, and he did not.

If Hoid is a "good guy" his goals should be simple to place (even if they still are wrapped in mystery/subtlety/obscurity,): 

Help people.

After all, almost all "good guys" break down to that simple point somehow.

Even complex, brilliant, world-spanning good-guys, whose plans are above comprehension, want to "do good."

This doesn't strike me as Hoid.

For my money, this guy is "doing good" as he sees it, trying to restore balance to the  Force  Cosmere as he sees it.

For someone who was there at the shattering, and has shown on numerous occasions not to be "aligned" with even the "good" Shards...

He's trying to restore Adonalsium. 

That means the entire cosmere, as it stands today, with all its planets and peoples with all their hopes and dreams, will stop existing. Restoration of Adonalsium means undoing everything that has happened since its fracturing. Destruction of the Cosmere. Or rather, Reparation of the Cosmere; taking all these broken bits and shards and fixing them so as if it had never been broken. The cease of Roshar, Scadrial, Nalthis, Taldain and all those protagonists we know and love.

Ohh, he thinks he's a good guy. Villains never believe they're wrong. But from our view? Self-serving, greater-good focused, ends-justify-the-means, Antagonist.

 

Gah!!! Yes! I've been thinking this for a while! He's willing to destroy worlds to meet his ends. Perhaps he wasn't being hyperbolic?

[ChaceWiggin]

Sidebar... Unless I've missed something (which is always entirely possible), are we assuming Hoid/Wit cannot lie? (Or mislead for that matter). His conversation with Shallan as child sounds just like a conversation with a child. When an adult would like an untrusting child to trust them, you'd say something along the lines Hoid/Wit uses. 

[Landis963]

Sidebar... Unless I've missed something (which is always entirely possible), are we assuming Hoid/Wit cannot lie? (Or mislead for that matter). His conversation with Shallan as child sounds just like a conversation with a child. When an adult would like an untrusting child to trust them, you'd say something along the lines Hoid/Wit uses. 

 

"Spare some coin for a poor blind beggar, Lord Waxillium?"  "Seize the Forger, she stole the Moon Scepter!"  "I learned this method of storytelling from someone else, Queen Siri."  

 

Yeah, he can lie and mislead all he pleases.  He often doesn't please, though, because it's much more fun to be brutally honest.  (See also, his stint as the King's Wit)