Sand Master

True, the progression is not the same in every order. But even Lightweavers say the first Oath: Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. It seems odd that a little girl (what, five, six years old?) would say that out of the blue. Especially since the only KR we've seen saying them as part of their Oaths did so after being told what the First Ideal was. The other Ideals, in Kaladin's case anyway, seemed to just come to him without being told what they were. But both Kaladin and Dalinar had someone else tell them what the First Ideal was before saying it themselves. So, assuming this is necessary, who told Shallan? And why? If it's not necessary, how do they know/find out what to say?

Not according to both Wikipedia and urbandictionary, which seem to be the only two main sources with a definition. Both of those say it just has to be the same gender.

It feels like we're straying into slash fiction territory. I don't think Shallan has the kind of personality to even think of something like that, let alone try it.

I thought the same thing. Especially since he mentions the God Beyond, which seems like it could easily refer to Adonalsium. I've often wondered how close he was to what actually happened.

Hey, thanks!

Alright, first part of Memebreaker. Here it is:

I... I don't get it. I know there's nothing less funny than explaining humor but... help? After looking it up: clever!

What @drsabek said. Alcatraz even wonders to himself why she dyes her hair, so it's not likely to be anything more magical than that.

I don't want to do anything against social protocol (from what I've been able to tell, once a thread is dead you're not supposed to post on it again?) but I also didn't want to make an entire new thread for something that already exists. So here's what I'm thinking: a lot of people have talked about doing Memebreaker here, and I have been wanting to reread Warbreaker anyway. If nobody has a problem with it, I'd be interested in posting for Memebreaker.

I actually thoroughly enjoyed Firstborn...

Fair enough. Still, it seems unlikely that he's the only person to do so in the entire series. Other people have probably done so without it being seen on screen.

Your reasoning for why it wouldn't be Elsecallers is because it wouldn't require much and Jasnah asked the spren questions? The dictionary defines subterfuge as "deceit used in order to achieve one's goal". I think that hiding from all the other Orders to make them think that their bond had been broken would count as deceit. As for Jasnah questioning the highspren, it never says that she's the first one to have done it. In fact, one of the epigraphs in Words of Radiance says that Elsecallers "were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren". This would imply that Elsecallers used to speak to spren in Shadesmar all the time.

But in the examples you give where he's reflecting on Sigzil's skin tone, that has relevance and meaning to the story and characters that we know. If he randomly mentioned a same-sex couple walking down the street without actually doing anything with that couple, it would feel out of place. I think where the disagreement here really comes in is that you say, "it has to be mentioned, somewhere." I disagree. I'm sure people go to use the privy multiple times in the story. I'm sure that's accepted by society. It's not mentioned simply because it's not very important. Just because it exists and is accepted doesn't mean it must be mentioned.

Yes, but the context for skin color is given because it helps describe the physical appearance of the character in question. You're not going to be introduced to a character and out of the blue see, "XYZ was a tall Makabaki man who also happened to be homosexual." It's not a topic that's going to come up often in conversation, and so we don't see it unless it's important.

I suppose. That is what I meant, and I was mostly basing it off the fact that if there were someone who I would otherwise be romantically interested in that was double my own age, it would definitely pretty much be a deal breaker for me. But to each their own I guess.

Okay, but Roshone and Lirin never got married... Maybe they meant Laral and Roshone? In that case, I would argue that political marriages aren't supposed to include personal fondness for each other, so the age difference doesn't matter that much. All you're doing is tying your houses together, almost like making a trade agreement. I think that when it comes to actually being attracted to someone, age plays a bigger part.

I also wondered this, though got a bit off topic and forgot to mention it. Maybe they meant to say Hesina? I don't remember there being any mention of her age though.

Welp, there goes my life. Sorry to take the forum off-track. I'll stay quiet now.

Whoa whoa whoa. Wait a second. Hold on. Do you mean that one of the chapters in the first two books is the same as the final chapter? Or that through some secret code, the final chapter is hidden in the words of the first two books? Or that someone in the first two books speculates on the future of Roshar and somehow gets it right? I CAN'T HANDLE THIS.

This.... this will haunt me. We're going to have to wait years to get to the final book, and you're telling me the last chapter ALREADY EXISTS??? I... I think I'm going to try to go freeze myself, wake up in about a decade.

I don't know. I don't have anything against same-sex relationships or anything, but Jasnah/Shallan feels like it would be pretty forced to me. Jasnah is practically old enough to be Shallan's mother. That's a bit weird.

I just finished re-reading Words of Radiance, and an idea struck me in the epilogue that I haven't seen here yet. What if the Order that "entertained great subterfuge" was the Elsecallers? It is mentioned in the epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance that they were the only true masters of Shadesmar, though other Orders also had a lesser affinity for it. And in the epilogue of WoR, we see Wit and Jasnah have this conversation: This seems to imply that, regardless of what happens in the Physical Realm, beings in Shadesmar are safer than those that are not. If the Elsecallers had hidden away from the other Orders by hiding in Shadesmar, it would still appear to the world as if they had betrayed their Oaths like the rest. Everyone would think that the reason they were no longer around is because they had given up on their Oaths like everyone else. However, if they hid in Shadesmar, it would fit with the "subterfuge" talked about in the book, and allow them to continue on without breaking their bonds. Thoughts?

As for the chasmfiend's mouth, I think it's pretty accurate. At least, it looks very similar to Shallan's sketch of it, which has pretty good detail of the mouth.

If this is the case though, and Plate was formed by the same spren as the Blade, then why does the Blade make them hear screams and the Plate does not?

So Dalinar is actually moving too fast for the book to be accurate? I was thinking it was going to be the other way around. Could it have been that the two swipes were from separate claws in the book? I don't remember if that was specified or not, but if it was then that might account for the two swipes.