Theory: The Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers

[pmj812]

I know this is a bit provocative, and a lot of people agree with Jasnah. I'd like to provide a basis to argue that we know the parshmen can't be voidbringers.

Jasnah's theory is that the Parshmen will become suddenly violent, quickly bringing civilization to its knees because they are everywhere and they are trusted to be docile.

There's a lot to support this:

-it would work; they are everywhere and their sudden revolt would subdue civilizations

-the evidence she presents points strongly towards them

But I suggest the following facts contradict it:

-there were several Desolations

-over the course of the Desolations, the Knights Radiant were a constant, present for all of them regardless of the state of civilization as a whole.

So in order for Jasnah to be correct, this sequence of events would have to repeat itself:

-A desolation begins

-After the desolation, civilization is in ruins

-the people, noticing that the voidbringers are now defeated and docile, put them to work

-over time, the people forget that the docile voidbringers were ever a threat

-a new desolation begins

Here's why this theory is unlikely:

-the Radiants were still there. They lasted through several Desolations. Their institutional memory would cause them to recognize that "hey, enslaving the Voidbringers has turned out badly... let's see... 6 times now. NO MORE VOIDBRINGER SLAVES YOU GUYS!"

and that's why Jasnah's theory is incorrect.

In the interest of being fair and thorough, here are the ways this theory could prove false:

-humans hadn't enslaved the parshmen before, they emerged in some other way during the previous Desolations (But I think Jasnah's theory strongly implies that she believes that the cycle is repeating exactly as it did before)

-The Radiants were wiped out every time, and had to be re-founded every time, allowing them to forget

-The Radiants were guilty of massive hubris every time, thinking "This time they are surely subjugated forever"

-The Radiants kept quiet about the whole thing, because for some reason they wanted the Desolations to repeat.

[Wispsy]

I might be mistaken here just read thru, i don't think it says in the book that people ha parshmen servants during the times of desolations and the radiants, the plan for the final one to work I think involved waiting long enough until humanity forgot all about it and crumbled easily, using the parshmen works perfectly in this plan. Wait until nobody knows what voidbringers are, introduce a load of your soldiers on timers or musical triggers or summit and let them become slaves completely ingrained in every bit of human society.

That being said I do like the idea, just saying afaik I think they coulda introduced parshmen after the radiants and desolations and all that had been forgotten

[Orome]

I kinda got the impression that the Knights Radiant were a new thing, only since the last desolation. I mean, they probably did pick individuals to be the leaders among men every desolation, but i dont think it says anywhere that the knights radiant were around before the last desolation.

[Eri]

As I remember, Jasnah assumed (and I think it was true) that Parshmen were enslaved only after the "last" desolation; bcause humans thought they've won.

[pmj812]

At the previous Desolation, Jezrien says "They have the Radiants. That will be enough." So the Radiants existed at least as of the previous desolation.

And the whole sense that I get from Jasnah's Veristitalian thing is that she thinks history is repeating itself.

"Suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest." That clue hints at the Desolations starting everywhere at once, without warning. If the Voidbringers were not integrated into human society, then the beginning wouldn't be that way: they'd sweep down from wherever they were from, and fight a conventional war.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

At the previous Desolation, Jezrien says "They have the Radiants. That will be enough." So the Radiants existed at least as of the previous desolation.

And the whole sense that I get from Jasnah's Veristitalian thing is that she thinks history is repeating itself.

"Suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest." That clue hints at the Desolations starting everywhere at once, without warning. If the Voidbringers were not integrated into human society, then the beginning wouldn't be that way: they'd sweep down from wherever they were from, and fight a conventional war.

This is one theory I'm not going to be able to support I think...

Even if a calm day becomes a tempest the winds don't spring up in your midst, they sweep down/from somewhere else to blast an area.

Maybe humans did enslave them before, but I get the sense from the history that the desolations happened at more frequent intervals prior to the "Last Desolation", and that this time Odium allowed a longer span for people to forget, for the horrors to fade into feared myth and those docile tools of the enemy to be seen as useful since we won the last time around, surely they won't be a threat anymore.

I personally haven't gotten the sense that Parshmen were used as slave labor in between any previous desolations...

I guess though that we'll have to RAFO

[fiveAM]

From my readings of WoK, I'd always been under the impression that parshmen were not used as servants until after the Last Desolation. I think I sort of imagined a Desolation to start with like some sort of super highstorm and not only rain but and what not, the Voidbringers and thunderclasps, etc came with it. We know all the high storms come from the east, and I think it was confirmed(?) Taln is wet from swimming across the ocean or something of the sort? Considering, I don't think it's odd to think to the east is some sort of portal or what not to where all the Voidbringers waited in between Desolations.

I'm actually of the mind that the parshmen aren't Voidbringers. Or rather, I don't see it as it being definite. I don't have much evidence, but it just seems too simple for it to be the case, and there ARE some holes in the theory.

If the parshmen are Voidbringers, didn't everybody notice the sudden appearance of a new race of beings? Wouldn't they notice a likeness of the marble red and black of the parshmen to the Voidbringers? I feel like it wouldn't matter whether or not everyone believed the Desolations were over. After having lived through such horror, I think people would have immediately destroyed anything that even resembles the Voidbringers. The parshmen would have served as a constant reminder of the Desolations, people don't just accept, "Yay it's over. Oh, look they look like Voidbringers, kinda, hmm lets use them as servants!". No, it would go more like, "Oh This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules, CRAP KILL THEM"

Of course there are numerous explanations to cover, but I just don't like it how everyone seems to think it's practically established as a fact that the parshmen are Voidbringers. I have my doubts and eager to RAFO. Besides, considering how Jasnah is so used to being right all the time, wouldn't being wrong about this be a great way for character development? Taln could do it too but she could easily just no believe him, considering she doesn't believe in Vorinism (therefore the Heralds too?)

[Wispsy]

the point is i dont think that the people who used the parshmen did live through the desolations....its a long term plan else it wouldnt take thousands of years. The people who found the parshmen first did not necessarily remember the voidbringers, and just hear stories of monsters the used to roam the world, not docile creatures who are tiny and do nothing but what you say. Also think, the thought they had won, there were no more preparations for war.

Heres a point that goes towards ur theory tho, if the heralds are still alive, and they were picked i would imagine for their honour and a serios desire to help (as shown by a willingness to go through thousands of years of torture plus the rest in crazy battles). Then how could they go all this time, even with their minds mosstly broken, with no desire at all to warn them that their ancient enemy was everywhere. You would think at least one of them would crack and tell some1!! but then who would believe that their loyal docile servants are really monsters told about in legend (which if you follow jasnahs theory is the whole point of the plan).

btw personally i havent decided on the parshmen as voidbringers yet xD but currently looks likely, would love to see talns reaction to them even if its nothing lol

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I find myself vacillating on this the more I think about it.

One of the problems is that the histories that Jasnah is going through are fragments of quotes of earlier works or descriptions of earlier works about something that hasn't be fought in 4500 years... aside from the Heralds and Knight Radiant people in that day were:

Men in primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads. Juxtaposed between them were others in gleaming plate armor. One group walked past, four men in their ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 294-296). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

At a very low level of development, and we know that before the Last Desolation is called "before history began" a number of times in the book, maybe because it did start, but was wiped out everytime a desolation began, but for whatever reason recorded history for Roshar doesn't got back all that far, relatively speaking, and what does is fragments of fragments. So Voidbringer may be anything from that earlier time period, or even nothing.

Jasnah looks a drawing of a Chasm fiend that is labeled 'Voidbringer', but her research makes her conclude that the label is wrong and Parshmen are the Voidbringers. We seek in the Prelude and some of Dalinar's visions that the 'thunder clast' is a huge beast made of stone that rips itself free from the earth. So likely a Chasm Fiend is the closest anyone can get to a drawing of a 'thunderclast' but that is then confused and conflated with a single term "voidbringer".

At the beginning Prelude, Kalak the Herald says that "the Dustbringers had done their work well"...

I think what his happening or happened is that there were many creatures fighting against people/Heralds/Radiants in the desolations, the thunderclasts, the shadow creatures a Radiant calls "Midnight Essences", the Dustbringers, and maybe even something separate called the Voidbringers, but only one of those terms has survived to this time and so we get a conflating of enemies into a catchall term.

As I think more about it, I probably agree with the main premise of this theory, but disagree with the specifics.

I do think that the Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers, but I do think they are/were part of Odium's armies against Honor/Heralds/Radiants/People, I think they were more the footsoldiers aka Dustbringers, thunderclasts would be like Heavy Cavalry, Midnight Essences would be infiltrators/scouts, and Voidbringers will end up being the leaders, similar to the Knights Radiant or some such...

[Wispsy]

ive always kinda pictured midnight essence like zerglings

[Sunblesser]

when Kalak mentions dustbringers, i'd always got the feeling, at least after reading the entire book, that they were an order of knights, not an enemy. the way he says it, "the dustbringers had done their work well," seems like someone reflecting on his allies efforts. sort of a "well done, dustbringers" thing.

otherwise, i think your reasoning is sound there, GHM. voidbringers seems to be linked directly to desolations in the modern mind, as if desolations only brought voidbringers, which we know is untrue. as a catch-all term, it works.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

when Kalak mentions dustbringers, i'd always got the feeling, at least after reading the entire book, that they were an order of knights, not an enemy. the way he says it, "the dustbringers had done their work well," seems like someone reflecting on his allies efforts. sort of a "well done, dustbringers" thing.

otherwise, i think your reasoning is sound there, GHM. voidbringers seems to be linked directly to desolations in the modern mind, as if desolations only brought voidbringers, which we know is untrue. as a catch-all term, it works.

Interesting, I have always read that section in the context of how hard the fight had been this time

Many of the bodies around him were human; many were not. Blood mixed. Red. Orange. Violet. Though none of the bodies around him stirred, an indistinct haze of sounds hung in the air. Moans of pain, cries of grief. They did not seem like the sounds of victory. Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smoldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well ... The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious.

So to me it is saying that their enemies had done their jobs well, so well that the fighting had been one of the worst Desolations to that point.

[Arcanist Lupus]

“Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.”

That's the death quote of Chapter 9.

The parshmen are either white and red or black and red. (what's black and white and red all over? )

That's pretty powerful evidence against the parshmen. I don't believe in coincidences.

On the other hand, the Parshendi fight with honor, which is a very odd trait for creatures of Odium.

Spoilers for Mistborn HoA:

That being said, the kandra were creatures of Ruin, but they acted for Preservation. So...

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

True, it remains to be seen what a voidbringer is in fact though.

They may be Voidbringers in the larger sense, but not Voidbringers in a specific sense. I guess RAFO, but I'm of the opinion that they are not voidbringers in the specific sense, hence I'm going to be espousing this theory.

AS I said earlier, I do think they are part of Odium's forces, but that they are not voidbringers per se.

[name_here]

I'm thinking Voidbringers are not a single creature but a generic term for the forces of Odium. Or they're one creature in the same way that the Zerg are one creature, with Thunderclasts, Midnight Essences, and Parshendi all being various forms of the same kind of creature. There was some mention of their forms changing like smoke, which would fit with that and explain where all the non-Parshmen ones went.

Loony theory forming: The Parshmen are Voidbringers, but the Parshendi are actually their Honor-backed opposite numbers.

[Eerongal]

Personally, I've never really been on board with the "parshmen = voidbringers" thing. I've always thought that there has to be more to it than we know, but I haven't really had any strong evidence. To me, it seems to be be too simple to be the ACTUAL reveal this early into a series that is going to be quite long. Also, i've always felt that SOMEONE after the previous desolation would have written it down SOMEWHERE that their new servants = voidbringers. In all reality, there would have been a group of paranoids dedicated to the cause that the parshmen are evil, and would have at least had some literature preserved somewhere pointing it out specifically.

Basically, i've just always felt that it was too simple of an explanation too early on to actually be 100% correct. I fully expect it to be turned on its head and pulled inside out before the end of the series.

[CrazyRioter]

Personally, I've never really been on board with the "parshmen = voidbringers" thing. I've always thought that there has to be more to it than we know, but I haven't really had any strong evidence. To me, it seems to be be too simple to be the ACTUAL reveal this early into a series that is going to be quite long. Also, i've always felt that SOMEONE after the previous desolation would have written it down SOMEWHERE that their new servants = voidbringers. In all reality, there would have been a group of paranoids dedicated to the cause that the parshmen are evil, and would have at least had some literature preserved somewhere pointing it out specifically.

Basically, i've just always felt that it was too simple of an explanation too early on to actually be 100% correct. I fully expect it to be turned on its head and pulled inside out before the end of the series.

This. This is Brandon Sanderson people, if he doesn't come up with some way to twist things into a knot I'll eat my shoes. With hot sauce.

[Aiken Frost]

Agreed with both of you, 100%.

Including the shoe with hot sauce part.

[fiveAM]

This. This is Brandon Sanderson people, if he doesn't come up with some way to twist things into a knot I'll eat my shoes. With hot sauce.

Yay for parshman not necessarily being voidbringers, or at least not that simple.

But hot sauce makes it easier. It would be truly miserable to eat a shoe WITHOUT hot sauce.

[CrazyRioter]

I meant the really hot kind. And I don't like hot sauce.

[Tortellini]

Hmmm, while thinking about this I realized there's a way that Jasnah can be right, but still wrong - what if the Parshmen are really what's left of the last voidbringers, but they're not actually where Voidbringers come from? What if people are turned into Voidbringers during desolations somehow (temptation, magic, whatever) and thereby transform into Voidbringers? After the desolation, they are left as broken remains, and harmless. Since everyone believes the desolations are over, there's no reason to kill them all - it's like the zombie apocalypse but suddenly the zombies go peaceful.

The Parshmen are different because they have retained part of what it means to be human somehow - resisting temptation, being healed, whatever.

Way out there with the speculation, but I sort of like the idea of Parshmen being changed humans, not a different unrelated species.

[happyman]

I've said it before, and I'll doubtless say it again:

I believe that Jasnah is at least party right, or the reveal would mean nothing. Also, her evidence seems quite solid. On the other hand, we don't know what the term Voidbringer really means, or why. We just don't know enough to place her discovery in proper context. Thus the reveal is probably both true and yet dead wrong.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I've said it before, and I'll doubtless say it again:

I believe that Jasnah is at least party right, or the reveal would mean nothing. Also, her evidence seems quite solid. On the other hand, we don't know what the term Voidbringer really means, or why. We just don't know enough to place her discovery in proper context. Thus the reveal is probably both true and yet dead wrong.

That is my thought as well as I've said before. I think she is both right and wrong. They aren't likely THE Voidbringers, but I do think they are/were part of Odium's forces.

The thing that confuses me is the Honorable Parshendi and how they may fit into all this. Perhaps the Parshendi come from an area of the Shattered Plains where the 9 Dawnblades are shoved into the ground and that is influencing them?

[Arcanist Lupus]

What I've gotten so far from this thread is that we're missing a fundamental understanding about what a Desolation is, and until we are given that, we're going to have no progress on understanding the link between Voidbringers and Parshmen.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I am certain there is more to it, but I sincerely hope that the Parshmen are (at least some of the) Voidbringers. If they aren't, then we're down from learning two unambigious facts about the nature of the world in a 1,000 page long book to learning one, which seems absurdly harsh to me.