Theory: The Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers

[Shardlet he/him]

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to hide spoilers.

 

Use the handy dandy spoiler tag like so:

 

[spoiler*]It's a beautiful day in the cosmere!

 

Note: do not include the asterix in the first part of the tag.  I have it there so you can see the structure of the tag.

The above tag would show up like:

It's a beautiful day in the cosmere!

[Argent he/him]

Here is something interesting that tickled my mind when I was rereading TWoK:

One book she’d read claimed that Kharbranth had been founded way back into the shadowdays, years before the Last Desolation. That would make it old indeed. Thousands of years old, created before the terrors of the Hierocracy, long before—even—the Recreance. Back then Voidbringers with bodies of stone were said to have stalked the land.

I think we've kind of been assuming that the Voidbringers are what really marks a desolation. Those shades from Dalinar's vision start showing up, but that's only the beginning; at some point after that, the Voidbringers show up and they mark the start of a Desolation. Except the quote doesn't give off the same feeling. Obviously we can't verify how correct the author of that book was, but if Kharbranth was founded before the Last Desolation, and if Voidbringers were stalking the land during the same period of time, then the Voidbringers must have existed in large enough numbers to warrant a mention before that Desolation. 

 

This pulls me in the direction of the Parshendi (or, rather, one of their forms) being the Voidbringers. They could've coexisted with humans long before the Last Desolation. Then, for a period of time after the Last Desolation, the people knew that the Voidbringers were just Parshendi on steroids, but the knowledge was corrupted by the passage of history, as is often the case. So really, what the author of that book should've said (in my opinion) is that Kharbranth was founded back in the shadowdays ... back when Parshendi stalked the land. Or something to that effect.

[Shardlet he/him]

They wouldn't have been called Parshendi back then.  Recall, Gavilar? (either that or stormwardens who were with Gavilar) coined the term Parshendi based off of the name Parshmen.  If I recall, the name means something like Parshmen who can think.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Shardlet

[Argent he/him]

True. But I doubt they would've called them Voidbringers either. I probably could've been more clear, but a few thousand years are not enough to drive an entire race or species from one stage of their evolution to another - so they were still essentially Parshendi, or Parshmen, or Parsh, or whatever name they used back then.

[Shardlet he/him]

The thing that strikes me as being off about the Parshendi being the voidbringers is that if there was an enemy you fought that was typically peaceful but at the flip of a switch becomes violent and least previously resulting in 90% of the human population being killed, Why the heck would you enslave them and not ensure that knowledge of that nature is remembered.  I know crap happens, but it seems that that knowledge would be of paramount importance to the preservation of humanity.  I think that enslaving them would have been the height of foolishness.  It would be remarkable for the people to not have destroyed the remaining Parshendi completely.  It is hard to think about because there is no analog to such a situation in the history of Earth.  The worst atrocities were committed as a result of the choices of individuals not puppets without the capacity to make choices of their own. 

 

This may end up being an important philosophical theme in the series.  How do you handle a race/species of people that 99.9% of the time are peaceful but whose free will can be unavoidably be completely consumed en masse and become the means of at least near total destruction of humanity?

[Argent he/him]

I could see it happening. 

 

First, Desolations probably happen thousands of years apart. Sometimes - often even - when a scholar or a scribe writes something down, they assume that their readers will be on the same level of knowledge as they are. Or, rather, they would have enough common sense to make the same assumptions you did. When we say that Earth is about 70% water, we almost always leave out the "liquid" qualifier; but somebody living on an ice desert planet, where the implied qualifier is "frozen," will make a very different assumption about our tiny blue dot. Similarly, somebody who knows that the Voidbringers are the Parsh people won't be bothered to explain the difference between a Parsh whose form comes from a harmless spren and one who is bound to a Voidbringerspren (this is such a horrible name...). I could probably make up a better example using references from the book, but I think the idea is believable enough to allow me some leeway. 

 

Moreover, I can definitely see how an ancient race similar to the Alethi from modern Roshar could decide that "domesticating" the Voidbringers was a good idea. One factor that could aid this decision is the (perceived) certainty that the it would be literally impossible for the Parsh men to turn into Voidbringers. The Heralds told the people that they had won - there were to be no more Desolations. Why not turn their enemies into their slaves? Hunger for power is another reason. Maybe the people - or the Radiants, or whoever "domesticated" the Parsh people - thought that they have something to gain from keeping the Parsh alive, but docile. Maybe they wanted to learn their magic. Of course it's also possible that people in the past had more decency and simply thought that a genocide - a xenocide even - doesn't exactly scream "I am good and pious, Almighty, take me to heaven!" I am skeptical of this idea, but it's at least possible. After all, imagine we fight and win a war against an army of murdering werewolves, only to have them turn into cute puppies in the end. This all feeds back into the idea that almost anything could be justified if the people genuinely believed that there were to be no more Desolations. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah, but we're talking about a cycle of 99 desolations that have (reportedly) occurred.  It seems unlikely that at some point during that cycle that there would not have been vast extermination efforts.  Especially pre-KR.

[Argent he/him]

I admit that could be a hole in my idea... But an easy solution to this is the following alternative scenario. The Parsh people do get wiped out every time - not completely, but dramatically enough to look like they are completely gone. Maybe only a few hundred of them survive somewhere. The human kingdoms rest easily, assured that the threat is gone. The Parsh kick their mating form into an overdrive. Couple of thousand years later their numbers are (once again) great enough that they do get noticed by the humans; only, since they look like people with weird skin and armor, nobody sees the Voidbringers in them. At a later point their kill switch is flipped on, a new Desolation starts, and the cycle repeats. The only people who survive long enough to make the connection are the Heralds, but since they only show up during Desolations, they never actually see what happens between them. 

[Gloom he/him]

It amuses me that you are arguing that the Parshmen are the Voidbringers in the Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers thread.

 

I tend to think that the second scenario is the most likely. After several re-reads, Jasnahs evidence is pretty damning as far as I'm concerned. There would be a lot of places for Parshmen remnants to disappear for a millennium or two considering how badly the human race is decimated in Desolations.

[Argent he/him]

Theory threads are not only for supporting evidence

[Daishi5]

One thing I noticed was that the voidbringers were described as being of fire and flame, and Kaladin was described as if the stormlight was smoke and fire during the tower fight.

"A more subdued glow began to steam off his body.  Radiant, like smoke from an ethereal fire."

"White Stormlight streamed from him like a blazing fire"

 I think the Parsh are a red herring, and the real voidbringers will actually be glowing with stormlight and actually look like fire and smoke.  

[Argent he/him]

I strongly doubt this for a number of reasons. The visual effects of Stormlight leaking from one's body are described quite well - and this is probably the only time they are referred to as resembling smoke and fire. When you say that a creature is of "fire and smoke," you never mean that it leaks with white light. It's a poetic expression, not a descriptive one. Plus, the Heralds "founded" the Radiants - you would imagine that after fighting the Voidbringers for dozens of Desolations, they'd know how their enemy looked...

[marianmi]

* Parshendi are the native inhabitants of Roshar, humans were created by Honour

* "Friends before" in the quote may mean dalinar's soldiers, not the parshendi. Though I understand it as the parshendi as well.

[Gloom he/him]

* Parshendi are the native inhabitants of Roshar, humans were created by Honour

* "Friends before" in the quote may mean dalinar's soldiers, not the parshendi. Though I understand it as the parshendi as well.

 

I believe that humans are definitely not native to Roshar. I'm on the fence about the Parsh. I'm not sure if they are natural to Roshar either. It's possible that they followed humanity to Roshar. If the Parsh are the Voidbringers that forced mankind from heaven and have pursued them to Roshar, then the Parsh would also be alien to the planet.

[Urithiru]

Hi all,

 

First time posting at the 17th Shard, so bear with me if this is old hat. The idea that the Parshendi are Voidbringers has never seemed right to me, and this has something to do with politics, evolution, and magic. In the first place, there seems to be overwhelming evidence that the Parshendi are more (not less) native to Roshar than humans. They are better adapted to the ecology, have closer connections with spren (we now know), and have more similarities to the rest of fauna of Roshar (outside Shinovar): their blood may be orange, but like greatshells' blood, it smells like mold; they have carapaces; can possibly undergo metamorphosis of some kind; etc. We also have to take into account Brandon's pretty clear political views and knowledge of history. Brandon is interested in exploring the Other, but I doubt he would make the Parshendi/Parshmen, real-world parallels for African American slaves and American Indians, into the evil servants of a dark god hellbent on destroying the righteous honorable human civilization. Fantasy as a genre has enough of the kind of racist imperial fantasies of slaughtering vast nameless hordes of dark and ugly "monsters." Brandon knows this. I'd like to think he would be more interested in turning such conventions on their head than reinforcing them. 

 

My theory is that Cultivation came to Roshar first, and is responsible for almost all of the ecology and rapid evolution and diversity that we see. I believe that her "body" is the spren. I believe that the highstorms are native to Roshar. I think she created/modified some native lifeforms to look like the "humans" from Adonalsium, but be better adapted to the world of Roshar, and that these are the Parsh. A big question, then, is how did "humans" get to Roshar? I think Odium came next to try to kill Cultivation, and that Honor arrived to help Cultivation defend her world and her lifeforms. Lacking time (or creativity, or whatever), Honor created (or brought) an army of humans, and infused his "body" into the world as stormlight and shardplate/shardblades (someone who better understands the body/shard/magic stuff, please correct/corroborate this!). I think Shinovar was set aside as a more or less Shard-free zone. I know people have said it seems like Cultivation's territory, but I just don't see it. It is really just normal, with no magic, no spren, no stormlight, no exposed Roshar stone (could stone be Odium's body?). Cultivation would seem to be more inclined to cultivate biodiversity, to change, to adaptations, to breeding (or rapid, directed evolution). Shinovar could be where Honor "landed" with his humans, and Cultivation let him create a little temporary safe haven in case humans had too much trouble surviving Roshar, but then things got complicated and Honor settled in to stay.

 

The Heralds were Honor's first plans, but there is evidence from recent signings that maybe the Radiants were unintentional, that the spren bonds had more to do with Cultivation?

 

This still leaves us with the question of the Voidbringers. I am not sure we can really know for certain yet, but it seems to me that voidbinding is opposed to surgebinding, that is a question of magics more than a question of race. Of course, we also have evidence from Dalinar's visions and other sources (like Szeth) that the Voidbringers were a kind of creature that usually could not speak with human voices and could perfectly hold in stormlight. The Parshendi can speak (and as they look human, this shouldn't be very surprising to anyone), and we have no evidence they hold in stormlight perfectly (or at all, yet).

 

But maybe one of the creatures we've seen in some of the WoR excerpts better fits these descriptions? I won't reveal too much here, but suffice it to say that Rysn's gift at the end of her interlude looks like something another character in another interlude encounters, that has surprising stormlight consequences…?

 

But overall, I just don't think we have seen anything close to the Voidbringers or Voidish magic, except maybe for Thunderclasts and the Midnight Essence monsters. 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Urithiru

[Argent he/him]

Nicely written, @Urithiru. I would, however, like to point out that Cultivation and Honor arrived together to Roshar. I would like to see how you handle this piece of evidence before I address the rest of your theory.

[Urithiru]

Thanks for that info @Argent. I had considered this possibility too, and had a few thoughts that I don't think radically alter my theory. First, since there are implications of pacts between shards (the Oathpact between Odium, Honor, and possibly also Cultivation; the detente pact between Ruin and Preservation), it is possible that Honor asked for part of the world to be sheltered (protected, very honor-like) so that the memory of whatever Earth-like world existed before could be kept safe while giving Cultivation the free reign to play with the evolution of the native species. Perhaps as part of the pact, Honor agreed to invest part of his power in the highstorms/stormlight to give Cultivation some extra energy to play around with. I believe Honor and Cultivation have/had a relationship by which they share or supplement each other's shard powers/energies to a certain degree (like a marriage, maybe). This is all so speculative, but it does seem to fit so far. 

 

Since I posted my theory I stumbled on Gloom's theory about Honor fleeing to Roshar from Odium and forcing Odium to invest part of himself on Roshar as part of the Oathpact. And since Argent confirmed that Honor and Cultivation arrived together, perhaps some humans created elsewhere in the Roshar system arrived together as well (the Heralds and some others). Were humans on Roshar made together by Cultivation and Honor or were they the "children" of only one? Maybe we should think of the Parshendi more along the lines of "second born" children of the gods, like Men in Tolkien. Not sure yet.

 

A few other questions: 1) does Stormlight=Honor or is it just the energy form/manifestation for ALL the shards on Roshar? Do Voidbringers actually use Stormlight, or is there some other force/energy? 2) Given what we now know from Wyndle, can we say that spren are Cultivation's "consciousness" or maybe "body"? If so, what to make of honorspren? Perhaps spren are the joint-creations of both Cultivation and Honor?

Edited October 28, 2013 by Urithiru

[Gloom he/him]

Poor Amians. No one ever remembers them unless they want to kill something.

 

For what it's worth, we have two separate set of information. We have Vorinism, which claims that humanity was indeed forced out of the Tranquiline Halls and onto Roshar, and we have WoB that says that Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar together, and that they were an item.

 

I think that Brandon provided us with an awful lot of evidence to support the idea that the Parsh are the Voidbringers. I think that, outside of Shinovar, Roshar was not designed for human life. It still remains well inside the life belt, but if Roshar was intended to support human life, I think it would all be far more like the other human worlds we've seen. We've already seen a Shard adjust a planetary orbit on Scadrial. We have WoB that Odium came after Honor and Cultivation, so the Shards would ahve been unopposed when life was created or brought to Roshar.

[Argent he/him]

What I like most about this is the supposition that the Parshendi/Parshmen (or the Parsh, which is a collective term I use) feel far more native to Roshar than the human races. It feels obvious in retrospect. I think this is important.

[Urithiru]

Another possibility that I used to feel more confident about is that Shinovar is actually the only remnant of the original earth-like ecology of Roshar from before Honor and Cultivation arrived. That the highstorms didn't appear until the presence of the shards and that the combined onslaught of highstorms, desolations, and Cultivation's influence stripped away the topsoil, killed off all mammals and birds, allowed crustaceans and arthropods to fill vacated niches, and only in mountain-shielded Shinovar did the original humans, horses, cows, chickens, grasses, trees, and soil survive. It is also worth pointing out that the Shin are the only humans on Roshar with "normal" hair, "regular" eyes, and maybe even "normal" height. Thinner eyes (possibly adaptations to the dusty, windy regions of Roshar are the norm elsewhere, Thaylenans have weird eyebrows (maybe for same reason), some people have gold hair, Aimians have blue mineral nails and strange skin patterns (maybe like squids or cuttlefish?), and Alethi have weird hair genes too with purity clearly marked.

What argues against this is that Shinovar looks EXACTLY like an Euro-American agricultural region. All the species are earth-based and WoB is that Earth is not part of the Cosmere. Chances that Roshar was ever naturally just like Earth then, seems remote. The only explanation that I think makes sense is that Adonalsium was like Earth or something.

I was originally struck in the prelude by the early and cryptic mention of three colors of blood: red, orange, and purple. Are these shardic correspondences? Are the Parsh the only orange-blooded creatures on Roshar? I seem to recall that Axehounds have orange blood too, but maybe it is that they have carapaces instead of shells (like the Parsh).

I think figuring this all out is important because determining who is native, who are colonists, who are the enslavers and who the enslaved will matter immensely to this story.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Urithiru

[Gloom he/him]

Every piece of information we have says that humans are not native to Roshar. It would stand to reason that the ecology of Shinovar is also foreign.

 

Aimians are not human. I believe they are native to Roshar.

 

The Parsh are a mystery. If the Parsh were the dawnsingers, then the evidence we have says they were on Roshar when humanity arrived. Granted, this is Kabsals word, so it is just Vorin mythology, which hasn't proven to be terribly reliable.

[Urithiru]

@Gloom: Thanks for the info on the Aimians. How do we know that they are not human? Did that come from TWoK or from WoB? If there's an interview or database link, could you send it to me? I'll have to think about this more, but right off the bat I am now struck that there are or were three sentient races on Roshar, where I had thought before there were only two (plus spren). The only Aimian we have seen seems unusual, and immortal, and can change shape. The Collector remarks that his nails and skin are typical of Aimians, but I can't recall if his weird shadow, or his shape-changing/self-healing abilities are... Also, why were they recently wiped out? Do you think Darkness might be responsible for the genocide? And since you seemed sad that everyone keeps forgetting the Aimians, could you perhaps elaborate more on the topic? You've got me interested!

 

Anyways, even if we can say for certain that Shinovar was created (and it didn't evolve), and that humans also are not native, are we sure that the humans on Roshar evolved/were created elsewhere? Maybe from wherever Honor and Cultivation came (Tranquiline Halls?)?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

@Gloom: Thanks for the info on the Aimians. How do we know that they are not human? Did that come from TWoK or from WoB? If there's an interview or database link, could you send it to me? I'll have to think about this more, but right off the bat I am now struck that there are or were three sentient races on Roshar, where I had thought before there were only two (plus spren). The only Aimian we have seen seems unusual, and immortal, and can change shape. The Collector remarks that his nails and skin are typical of Aimians, but I can't recall if his weird shadow, or his shape-changing/self-healing abilities are... Also, why were they recently wiped out? Do you think Darkness might be responsible for the genocide? And since you seemed sad that everyone keeps forgetting the Aimians, could you perhaps elaborate more on the topic? You've got me interested!

 

Anyways, even if we can say for certain that Shinovar was created (and it didn't evolve), and that humans also are not native, are we sure that the humans on Roshar evolved/were created elsewhere? Maybe from wherever Honor and Cultivation came (Tranquiline Halls?)?

 

Link for Aimian's are not human.

[Urithiru]

Link for Aimian's are not human.

Thanks! I forgot that there were two races of Aimians. This is getting complicated! I think the Aimian genocide, and the moral and political questions this raises, would tend to fit with them being native, but the question remains whether the Parsh are also native. Some posters have alluded to the theory that the Parsh were the Dawnsingers, and maybe also the Voidbringers. Is there a fully fleshed out theory on this that some kind user would like to link me to?

 

Thinking more on this, the only Aimian we "know" is Axies, and he has perhaps one the most extensive knowledge of spren of any character. He also fits well with Cultivation's themes, and can literally cultivate his body and senses at will. His shadow also points the wrong way (like Jasnah's?). He seems very nonviolent, and the sense from his POV is that Aimians are not particularly dangerous. So why were they killed? Do we know anything else about the different Aimian races? Do we know which one Axies is? 

[Gloom he/him]

There are two kinds of Aimians: Dysian Aimians (the ones, Wit mentions in Ch. 54) and Siah Aimians, such as Axies (I-5).

source

 

PS: Thanks for encouraging me to look that up, I came across a very funny thread in the process that made my day.

don't click me

Edited October 27, 2013 by Gloom