dionysus Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 Yes, I know why they're considered heresy. I'm just wondering if their history is true. What if Sunmaker was influenced by Odium or some other force, and either lied about the lack of visions or was unable to find them due to either hiddenness or Odium messing with things. Once visions became evil, any form of prophesy (like the one Preservation sent the Terris people) sent to help the people on Roshar would instantly lose most of its effectiveness. We don't know if Cultivation is dead or not, so this could be an attempt to restrict her ability to affect the world. Lots of wild theories here but I think there is good reason to speculate about the Sunmaker and the Ardents. I don't think it is just an interesting bit of backstory used to flesh out a novel's world, I think the history here is going to turn out to be key with plenty of room for twists. And I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Sunmaker was a tool of Odium, either well-intentioned or malicious.
Observer Posted September 5, 2012 Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) Lots of wild theories here but I think there is good reason to speculate about the Sunmaker and the Ardents. I don't think it is just an interesting bit of backstory used to flesh out a novel's world, I think the history here is going to turn out to be key with plenty of room for twists. And I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Sunmaker was a tool of Odium, either well-intentioned or malicious. *Sigh* Brandon, your habit of making obscure details important is the source of all this lunacy in the forums. Please keep doing it Back on track, what if the whole system of Ardents was a cult of Voidbinding Odium servants? Probably massivley farfetched, but still, it's an idea. Edited September 5, 2012 by Observer
name_here Posted September 5, 2012 Posted September 5, 2012 They're open membership. They could easily contain one, though.
HokieBry Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 I am leaning towards the side of not voidbringers, just because they act too honorably in battle and because of the "too obvious" argument. Obviously we have a lot more to learn about the Parshendi, and I am looking forward to the Parshendi viewpoints that Brandon said would be in book 2. I am VERY curious as to what they will be about and if they will be from the past or present. One scene that really spawned some questions in my mind was towards the end of the book when Kaladin was fighting to save Dalinar. When he "breathed" in a bunch of Stormlight from the gems in the Parshendi beards and started glowing, the Parshendi stopped fighting and said a two-worded term (I don't have the book with me and can't remember the term they said out loud). It was the first time they said something during battle, besides their singing. To me, the way they acted towards Kaladin was almost reverence, like he was something special. Maybe they know of the Radiants and think he is one. On a side note, do we know for a fact the the Parshendi were the ones to order Szeth to kill Gavilar? Szeth could have been tricked into thinking it was the Parshendi. I wonder who actually gave him the direct order?
Observer Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 AN HONOR Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew. -Dated Batabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: A lighteyed child of five years. Dictation improved remarkably when giving sample. This deathcry seems to reference Kaladin.
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Observer: Yeah, that was pretty obvious, less obvious is that it's the only death quote epigraph out of chronological order. [7-2-2] The next chapter's was [7-2-1] Hokie: That's not when the Parshendi stopped fighting and yelled "Neshua Kadal", it was before that, when he used the Reverse Lashing on his shield to pull ALL the arrows they shot towards Bridge 4 into the shield. Then the Parshendi archers ran away. They also say "Neshua Kadal" and begin to chant a song Kaladin had never heard before when sneak attacks the Parshendi Shardbearer and collects Dalinar. (Saves probably isn't the right word, since it didn't look like the Parshendi were going to kill him at that point.) I'm sure that Szeth's orders to assassinate Gavilar came from the Parshendi. I don't see how he could have been tricked into it by someone other than the Parshendi when they are holding his Oathstone and he is specifically ordered to wear white, since it was their custom. The hallway here curved to the right, running around the perimeter of the domed palace. They were on the king’s floor, two levels up, surrounded by rock walls, ceiling, and floor. That was profane. Stone was not to be trod upon. But what was he to do? He was Truthless. He did as his masters demanded.Today, that included wearing white. Loose white trousers tied at the waist with a rope, and over them a filmy shirt with long sleeves, open at the front. White clothing for a killer was a tradition among the Parshendi. Although Szeth had not asked, his masters had explained why. White to be bold. White to not blend into the night. White to give warning. For if you were going to assassinate a man, he was entitled to see you coming. It's interesting that they have a custom relating to assassination, someone in another thread argued that they must have become Parshendi only shortly before meeting Dalinar, but since they have their own fully developed culture, I think their change must have happened quite some time earlier. I still think it was a Herald that changed and ultimately leads them, and at this point I believe that the assassination was ordered by a Herald. Possibly the drunk gibberish-speaking man at the Beggar's Feast, and probably in consultation with Shalash, who was there in the Kholinar castle shortly before the events of the Prologue as well. (Shalash's statue was missing, and we know she loves to destroy depictions of herself.) It could be that the Herald took notice of the Death Quotes when they first began, and started pressuring the Parshendi into meeting with the Alethi and setting off a controlled war before they became completely uncontrollable due the coming Desolation.
Observer Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Crazy idea I just had. Double agent Parshendi. The Parshendi are neutral in this fight. They could be for either side, all things depending. Some clever Herald or maybe even a shard decides to run a little 'test', sending in some Parshendi, and later retrieving them for analysis. Crazy, yes. Farfethched, yes. Plausible? Barely. Awesome? Oh yeah.
Pagerunner he/him Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Here's a thought. In the last battle of the book, Syl abandons Kaladin when he is killing Parshendi. Kaladin's response (page 982 of the hardcover) seems to equate killing Parshendi with killing men, and he specifically paints it as a "terrible thing." Killing Voidbringers (using that as a generic term for a force of Odium during the Desolations) would not be acting against the ideals of the Knights Radiant, but apparently killing Parshendi is.
Observer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Here's a thought. In the last battle of the book, Syl abandons Kaladin when he is killing Parshendi. Kaladin's response (page 982 of the hardcover) seems to equate killing Parshendi with killing men, and he specifically paints it as a "terrible thing." Killing Voidbringers (using that as a generic term for a force of Odium during the Desolations) would not be acting against the ideals of the Knights Radiant, but apparently killing Parshendi is. It's not against the KR rules, Syl just didn't like all the death.
Pagerunner he/him Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 It's not against the KR rules, Syl just didn't like all the death. That's the point - if the Parshendi were Voidbringers, why would Syl dislike their deaths?
lDanielHolm he/him Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Because they are deaths? Syl can't even remember all of her history -- nothing guarantees that she recognizes Parshendi as Voidbringers. But even if she does, there is no reason why she cannot dislike their deaths regardless. She is honorspren, after all.
Zenith Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Syl's Honorspren; it could be that she just didn't like the deaths of honorable creatures, voidbringers or not.
dionysus Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 I wouldn't discount Kaladin's revulsion of shardblades as meaningless. I know he rationalizes his revulsion as a product of all the death he sees shardblades cause, but it could be more than that.
Stringbean he/him Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 So this may or may not impact the theory the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, but Brandon read a chapter from Stormlight 2 today that was from the POV of a Parshendi character. Her inner monologue was definitely ripe with honourable thoughts about the war, but it was also revealed that Parshendi have a caste system that changes their physical/mental characteristics (he referred to them as forms) and that the forms are controlled by which type of Spren an individual bonds with. He also revealed that the Parshmen are basically a slave casted Parshend; they are Parshendi that are not bonded to a Spren.
Asperity he/him Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 I wouldn't discount Kaladin's revulsion of shardblades as meaningless. I know he rationalizes his revulsion as a product of all the death he sees shardblades cause, but it could be more than that. I believe Kaladin hates shardblades because of their association with lighteyes. I don't see too much further into that. Maybe in the future if shardblades are revealed to be Odium-born but now? Not so much.
Cayden Posted November 5, 2012 Posted November 5, 2012 males you wonder if their are voidspren, and if they can bond with a parshman. However the fact that bonding a spren allows them to grow their own armor, might give credence that shardplate and shardblade can be formed if you have bonded a spren and are a surgebinder
The Count he/him Posted November 5, 2012 Posted November 5, 2012 Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honourspren...
Meg Posted December 1, 2012 Posted December 1, 2012 Visions are heresy, at least to the Vorin nations, ... I thought only to see the future was heresy, not visions generally. So may be the people of Vorin nations think about visions = visions of the future because of their past (Hierocracy). But visions do not necessary show the future as seen in Dalinar's visions: he's shown the past to take lessons from his visions. And so his visions are no heresy, I think. Parshendi and Parshmen seem similar to Roshar native lifeforms, so I yhink they have gemhearts (“have” as a bodypart, not just treasure) IMVHO they're different because Parshendi's hearts are infused with Stormlight (I think I once wrote a post about investiture creating sentience in not-completely-human races) But if the Parshendi's hearts (you mean the "real hearts" here, not the gemhearts?) would be infused, wouldn't this be vital to them or at least wouldn't loosing this Stormlight make them weak or less combative? I didn't see them dieing, weakening or getting less combative in the fight, when Kaladin and Bridge Four stayed behind and joined battle after Sadeas left Dalinar alone. And if the Parshendi "have" gemhearts as part of their body and are infused with Stormlight, why do the male fighters need to put gemhearts in their beards? One scene that really spawned some questions in my mind was towards the end of the book when Kaladin was fighting to save Dalinar. When he "breathed" in a bunch of Stormlight from the gems in the Parshendi beards and started glowing, the Parshendi stopped fighting and said a two-worded term (I don't have the book with me and can't remember the term they said out loud). It was the first time they said something during battle, besides their singing. To me, the way they acted towards Kaladin was almost reverence, like he was something special. Maybe they know of the Radiants and think he is one. The Parshendi "stopped fighting" and said something but they didn't abandon fight. In general -- call me naive -- I don't see honorable behavior in the Parshendi. In the first place I don't see something honorable in assassination. And I'm pretty sure the Parshendi are the orderer of Szeth for killing Gavilar. While reading through this thread I wavered about this, but then I'd asked myself why the Parshendi should fight this war if they didn't cause for it. Why not try to convince Elhokar that they did not order the assassination of his father? Only because of the gemhearts? I can't believe that. And at last: I think that the Parshendi are part of the Voidbringers but (actually) not the Parshmen. If Jasnah expects being the Parshmen Voidbringers, why return to the Shattered Plains (when I remember right, this is her intention after revealing her theory) and not share her wisdom with Dalinar via Spanreed (or even give him a hint) while trying to tell or at least warn Taravangian that there is a potential endangerment all around? (okay, have to admit that there may be reasons not to do this)
Observer Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 I thought only to see the future was heresy, not visions generally. So may be the people of Vorin nations think about visions = visions of the future because of their past (Hierocracy). But visions do not necessary show the future as seen in Dalinar's visions: he's shown the past to take lessons from his visions. And so his visions are no heresy, I think. In the strictest sense, only the future is bad. But it's not all that uncommon for taboos to spread, and it's likely that visions get a bad rap too. But if the Parshendi's hearts (you mean the "real hearts" here, not the gemhearts?) would be infused, wouldn't this be vital to them or at least wouldn't loosing this Stormlight make them weak or less combative? I didn't see them dieing, weakening or getting less combative in the fight, when Kaladin and Bridge Four stayed behind and joined battle after Sadeas left Dalinar alone. And if the Parshendi "have" gemhearts as part of their body and are infused with Stormlight, why do the male fighters need to put gemhearts in their beards? Szeth says voidbraingers can hold stomrlight without leaking(Begs the question of who told him that), so that may be it. The Parshendi "stopped fighting" and said something but they didn't abandon fight. In general -- call me naive -- I don't see honorable behavior in the Parshendi. In the first place I don't see something honorable in assassination. And I'm pretty sure the Parshendi are the orderer of Szeth for killing Gavilar. While reading through this thread I wavered about this, but then I'd asked myself why the Parshendi should fight this war if they didn't cause for it. Why not try to convince Elhokar that they did not order the assassination of his father? Only because of the gemhearts? I can't believe that. It's possible Odium had them do it, or maybe they were starting a war because they knew it was the only way to bring the Alethi together. Considering their song, it's not unlikely that the Parshendi would know sooner than the humans when a desolation was coming up. And at last: I think that the Parshendi are part of the Voidbringers but (actually) not the Parshmen. If Jasnah expects being the Parshmen Voidbringers, why return to the Shattered Plains (when I remember right, this is her intention after revealing her theory) and not share her wisdom with Dalinar via Spanreed (or even give him a hint) while trying to tell or at least warn Taravangian that there is a potential endangerment all around? (okay, have to admit that there may be reasons not to do this) She feels the need to be there in person and do her stuff, and is also a little worried about what she's doing. It sounds all fine to us, but Jasnah's research topic may not be the best thing to shout from the rooftops in Roshar.
CrazyRioter she/her Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 she's not sure about her theory, in scientific terms it's a hypothesis rather then a theory, she wants to gather more evidence, first hand if possible before spreading her idea. It's a big deal and she doesn't want to mess it up.
HokieBry Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) I like the theory that the Parshendi have gemhearts. One clue that points to this possibility is the Parshendi being so adamant about retrieving their dead. They don't want anyone cutting open one of their dead and finding a gemheart. As far as why they would had gems to their beards, I am not sure if that is more than just something they do with respect to their culture. The Parshendi are not using hte Stormlight in the gems from what we have seen so far. Edited December 3, 2012 by HokieBry
Meg Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 she's not sure about her theory, in scientific terms it's a hypothesis rather then a theory, she wants to gather more evidence, first hand if possible before spreading her idea. It's a big deal and she doesn't want to mess it up. Yes, you convinced me. I think I've been a bit over-hasty. @Observer Szeth says voidbraingers can hold stomrlight without leaking(Begs the question of who told him that), so that may be it. I'm sorry, I don't understand the part between the brackets. :(/>
HokieBry Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 Yes, you convinced me. I think I've been a bit over-hasty. @Observer I'm sorry, I don't understand the part between the brackets. :(/>/> I think you can translate the part between the parentheses as "it raises the question who told Szeth voidbringers don't leak stormlight" or "a separate question is who told Szeth Voidbringers don't leak stormlight?"
Meg Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 I think you can translate the part between the parentheses as "it raises the question who told Szeth voidbringers don't leak stormlight" or "a separate question is who told Szeth Voidbringers don't leak stormlight?" Ahh, thanks a lot Hokie.
Nepene he/him Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 But if the Parshendi's hearts (you mean the "real hearts" here, not the gemhearts?) would be infused, wouldn't this be vital to them or at least wouldn't loosing this Stormlight make them weak or less combative? I didn't see them dieing, weakening or getting less combative in the fight, when Kaladin and Bridge Four stayed behind and joined battle after Sadeas left Dalinar alone. And if the Parshendi "have" gemhearts as part of their body and are infused with Stormlight, why do the male fighters need to put gemhearts in their beards? Real hearts would presumably be internal, and so it would be hard to affect them as they would be protected by the people's spirits. Spirits resist magic to some degree, as in Mistborn.
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