STORMLIGHT SPOILERSThe Silence of the Shardblades

[Vissy]

Spren need to be resurrected, hence the 10-second wait for "regular" shardblades. But these blades never act as spren - for all intents and purposes, they remain lifeless constructs that merely seem to feed on the spren's power. Why don't the spren speak? Could it be said that 'resurrection' isn't really a good term for describing what happens when a Shardbearer summons his Blade? What term, then, should we use - what exactly is going on here?

Edited May 19, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[CaptainRyan]

8 minutes ago, Argent said:

Right, but it's not speech they hear. It's screams.

I think the screams might be words - from Words of Radiance page 672 (kindle first edition) when Kaladin performs the "last clap" on Relis' Shardblade during Adolin's duel (emphasis mine):
"Relis dropped the blade as if bitten. He backed away, raising his hands to his head. 'What is it? What is it! No, I didn't kill you!" He shrieked as if in great pain [...]"

Why would Relis say that if he only heard wordless screaming? My conjecture is the spren is screaming "YOU KILLED ME!" or something like that.

[S4S]

@DustBringer94 Kaladin was out of Stormlight when he did the last clap on the Shardblade... And you don't need Stormlight to summon a Shardblade from a living spren (right?), so I don't think that that would be the reason...

I don't like dashing theories like that man, but I noticed that my third read through, but hope that helps...

Your humble servant...

Shadows4Silence

[The Sovereign]

Without a Nahel Bond they still wouldn't have sentience. I suspect that the Gemstone related bond probably acts similarly to the Nahel Bond on a much weaker scale but it likely isn't enough. In addition per Syl (not necessarily the best source but I'll use what we have), we know that linking the Spren to a heartbeat makes them "live a little" the implication being that it is a partial Resurrection. 

Sidenote, you may want to tone down your thread topic as it is a pretty significant spoiler.

Edited May 19, 2017 by The Sovereign

[The One Who Connects]

I'd say the bond with the wielder isn't strong enough for it to speak to the user. Its a step below the Nahel Bond, so perhaps that is quite literally the difference.

Brandon has said that the heartbeats are required to "revive a dead Shardblade" so it may not be resurrecting the Spren in the way we describe the word.

[Vissy]

7 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Without a Nahel Bond they still wouldn't have sentience. I suspect that the Gemstone related bond probably acts similarly to the Nahel Bond on a much weaker scale but it likely isn't enough. In addition per Syl (not necessarily the best source but I'll use what we have), we know that linking the Spren to a heartbeat makes them "live a little" the implication being that it is a partial Resurrection. 

Sidenote, you may want to tone down your thread topic as it is a pretty significant spoiler.

Yeah, just realized it myself.

I guess partial resurrection does the trick. It's not very conclusive or informative of course. I'm hoping someone out there has scoured Theoryland of all Brandon's interviews and knows a WoB relating to this.

[Argent]

9 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

Could it be said that 'resurrection' isn't really a good term for describing what happens when a Shardbearer summons his Blade?

Indeed. Syl does say that they "need to be revived every time", but it's not a full revival - it's more akin to you can make a dead squid "dance" by pouring soy sauce on it. Shardbearers don't really revive their Blade's spren, they just give it enough... something... to summon it into the physical realm.

[Vissy]

12 minutes ago, Argent said:

Indeed. Syl does say that they "need to be revived every time", but it's not a full revival - it's more akin to you can make a dead squid "dance" by pouring soy sauce on it. Shardbearers don't really revive their Blade's spren, they just give it enough... something... to summon it into the physical realm.

Huh, that video was unsettling on so many levels. I completely get Syl's aversion now. Really handy video for driving that point home, actually.

I really hope this will get elaborated on during Oathbringer.

[CaptainRyan]

On 5/19/2017 at 10:53 AM, Rob Lucci said:

Why don't the spren speak?

Proto-Radiants and, presumably, full Radiants certainly hear the spren speak when they touch a "dead" Shardblade. One might say that the breaking of the bonds that "killed" the spren left them in a state very similar to the Hoed (from Elantris).

Edit: I responded to another poster below showing that in the climactic Words of Radiance duel, when Kaladin performed a "last clap" on Relis' Shardblade that Relis heard the screaming of a dead spren. Relis then when on to say "No, I didn't kill you!" which leads me to believe that Relis heard the spren screaming something along the lines of "YOU KILLED ME!"

(page 672 of the first edition on the Kindle)

Edited May 20, 2017 by CaptainRyan

[Argent]

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

Proto-Radiants and, presumably, full Radiants certainly hear the spren speak when they touch a "dead" Shardblade. One might say that the breaking of the bonds that "killed" the spren left them in a state very similar to the Hoed (from Elantris).

Right, but it's not speech they hear. It's screams.

[skaa]

@CaptainRyan has the correct answer. A sort of resurrection does take place, though not a very pleasant one for the spren. Most Shardbearers simply can't hear the screams.

And of course, since the resurrection needs to happen every time it's summoned, the zombie spren dies again when dismissed. Very unpleasant.

Edited May 20, 2017 by skaa

[The One Who Connects]

On 5/19/2017 at 6:31 PM, CaptainRyan said:

Why would Relis say that if he only heard wordless screaming? My conjecture is the spren is screaming "YOU KILLED ME!" or something like that.

Why wouldn't Kaladin hear that as well? He was holding the blade at the exact same time, and heard only screams which were either:

1. Unintelligible to a proto-radiant, but clear to normal humans
2. Something he understood and devoted exactly zero thought processes about what he just heard
3. Shocking enough for him to not hear it clearly, but not shocking enough to also blur the hearing of Relis, a man who more than likely hasn't even heard a normal Spren speak, much less scream
4. Something that makes more sense than the only logical conclusions I can think of at the moment.

[CaptainRyan]

28 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Why wouldn't Kaladin hear that as well? He was holding the blade at the exact same time, and heard only screams which were either:

1. Unintelligible to a proto-radiant, but clear to normal humans
2. Something he understood and devoted exactly zero thought processes about what he just heard
3. Shocking enough for him to not hear it clearly, but not shocking enough to also blur the hearing of Relis, a man who more than likely hasn't even heard a normal Spren speak, much less scream
4. Something that makes more sense than the only logical conclusions I can think of at the moment.

My guess? Relis was bonded to the blade so he heard it more clearly.

[DustBringer94]

If the Nahel bond is similar to the gem bond in the shardblade then it would stand to reason that Kaladin may have leaked a little more investiture into the blade by simply touching it than when it was normally summoned. therefor resurrecting it a bit more than a normal summon would have. Doesn't kaladin hear syl scream when he touches a blade on a different occasion?

[shadowwisp]

I suspect that one method of bringing a dead shardblade back to life requires the assistance of a surrogate Nahel bond. ie: Adolin will need Shallan to touch his blade in order for Adolin to talk to the shardblade and attempt to make new bonds.

At the very least, they might be able to gain information about the Recreance.

Edited May 24, 2017 by shadowwisp

[DocHoliday]

I would also like to submit that "bonding" the Shardblade is only feasible because of the addition of gemstones to them per Navani. Prior to that the Blades were simply lugged around.

That means they exist in the Physical Realm regardless of being "bonded", and therefore arn't really gaining anything  from being a shardbearers tool. 

Syl's comments then, are a little off putting. Why would a Spren live a little, then, when summoned?

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, FiveLate said:

Why would a lifeless live a little when given a breath and command?

Because you give it a counterfeit soul.

[DocHoliday]

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Because you give it a counterfeit soul.

Thank you.

 

5 hours ago, FiveLate said:

 

Maybe the gemstone acts as a gateway allowing the hardheaded a tiny bit of access to the borders soul.

I originally thought it might be the Investiture in the gem that "bonded" them, whilst trying to figure out why Kaladin wasn't hearing Relis' Blade; but then summoning couldn't occur during the weeping. And we know that's not the case.  So I'm at dead end.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Shadows4Silence said:

And you don't need Stormlight to summon a Shardblade from a living spren (right?), so I don't think that that would be the reason...

And the gem on a dead blade can be dun and you can still dismiss/summon it. 

Stormlight isn't involved

[S4S]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

And the gem on a dead blade can be dun and you can still dismiss/summon it. 

Stormlight isn't involved

That's what I thought with Navani's conversation with Dalinar on getting close to replicating Shardblades and how the gemstones weren't originally there...

Thanks for the clarification!

[DustBringer94]

On 6/26/2017 at 7:55 PM, Shadows4Silence said:

@DustBringer94 Kaladin was out of Stormlight when he did the last clap on the Shardblade... And you don't need Stormlight to summon a Shardblade from a living spren (right?), so I don't think that that would be the reason...

I don't like dashing theories like that man, but I noticed that my third read through, but hope that helps...

Your humble servant...

Shadows4Silence

i was a little unclear in my meaning. with Syl being made of pure investiture and kaladin being bonded with her i feel that was were the "excess investiture" came from. renerin has never consumed stormlight (that we know of) but we know that being bonded with his spren he cannot hold a "dead shardblade" withouth hearing screams. but what im still not understanding is why is it that when kaladin touches one or renerin does theres no mention of it speaking to them? all we know is that they hear screaming.. whats different about the scene with the last clap? i feel like it stands out for a reason.. but i digress im kinda making shots in the dark here. i just wanted to share my thoughts to further the coversation, get some different opinions

[OneNastyChull]

On 7/4/2017 at 7:08 PM, DustBringer94 said:

i was a little unclear in my meaning. with Syl being made of pure investiture and kaladin being bonded with her i feel that was were the "excess investiture" came from. renerin has never consumed stormlight (that we know of) but we know that being bonded with his spren he cannot hold a "dead shardblade" withouth hearing screams. but what im still not understanding is why is it that when kaladin touches one or renerin does theres no mention of it speaking to them? all we know is that they hear screaming.. whats different about the scene with the last clap? i feel like it stands out for a reason.. but i digress im kinda making shots in the dark here. i just wanted to share my thoughts to further the coversation, get some different opinions

Anyone had the idea that the person hearing the screaming is the one bonded to them that keeps killing the spren? If the bond allows you to summon them and summoning them brings them to life while unsummoning the sword kills them then technically the person bonded to a dead shardblade is killing that spren again and again. But to hear the spren maybe the dead shardblade has to come into contact with someone who has a developed Nahal bond. Renerarin would then hear the dead blade once he had progressed far enough and this would allow Kaladin to not hear it (while last clapping) while Relis would (because Relis was bonded and Kal wasn't) while Kaladin was  touching it with his flesh. If I'm correct then you would need to advance to the 2nd oath to give this effect because Dalinar doesn't hear it till then. (I don't think he even hears it he is just distressed by the blade when The Stormfather un bonds him. Although I'm not sure that was the stormfather that unbonded him but Dalinars bond smith powers (whole other discussion).

Actually doesn't Dalinar feel something off about his blade towards the end of WoR without having yet said the 2nd oath? 

[Aminar]

On 6/26/2017 at 8:58 PM, Calderis said:

And the gem on a dead blade can be dun and you can still dismiss/summon it. 

Stormlight isn't involved

Maybe the gems are needed to sustain the shardblades "life" long enough for a Nahel(ish) bond to form between the shardbearer and the Zombiespren. Making it a form of Necromancy really. So placing a dun gem won't do anything, but once the blade has taken in the stormlight it needs to be alive its stuck that way for a week or so until the bond cements and it can be released. 

[Contessa]

On May 19, 2017 at 5:07 PM, CaptainRyan said:

Edit: I responded to another poster below showing that in the climactic Words of Radiance duel, when Kaladin performed a "last clap" on Relis' Shardblade that Relis heard the screaming of a dead spren. Relis then when on to say "No, I didn't kill you!" which leads me to believe that Relis heard the spren screaming something along the lines of "YOU KILLED ME!"

(page 672 of the first edition on the Kindle)

I always read that scene as Relis thinking the wordless scream is from Kaladin, and protesting that he didn't kill Kaladin. I guess your interpretation makes more sense though, especially since the person bonded with the blade is sort of the one who re-kills the spren every time the blade is dismissed.