The Value of Odium

[+Child of Hodor]

I was doing some reading on psychology for unrelated reasons and I came across literature describing anger as a powerful catalyst for change. When something in the world upsets us it motivates us to change that whether it is our own lifestyle, a personal relationship or a political/societal issue. 

It makes me think that Odium + Cultivation wouldn't be so bad. Could be really weird, but could also work well depending on the Vessel. In the WoR letter Frost refers to Odium as "divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." 

Giving Odium context (and a new Vessel) seem to be what needs to happen in SA. Cultivation would be good context. Honor obviously would as well. Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

I am skeptical that Brandon will do another "Shards combine" resolution without some other twist. 

 https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201403/go-forth-in-anger

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wander-woman/201101/want-change-get-angry

[+Q10fanatic]

I don't know if simply one competing Shardic Intent is enough. Odium himself would certainly hate it, since I think Brandon has said he is terrified of anything that could change his intent. However, Hate + Cultivation might simply change him from raging evil god to ice-cold, calculating evil god. That seems utterly terrifying.

[Karger he/him]

26 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

It makes me think that Odium + Cultivation wouldn't be so bad. Could be really weird, but could also work well depending on the Vessel. In the WoR letter Frost refers to Odium as "divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." 

I agree that Odium is useful.  Dalinar can fully attest to the fact that without Odium he would be dead.  I am not sure that the ratio of Cultivation to Odium is enough.  Perhaps 1/2 Odium+ all of Cultivation might be good.

[DocHoliday he/him]

"Anger is more useful than the spear." Motivation is everything.

[RShara she/her]

Except Odium is Hatred, not Anger?

[Frustration]

36 minutes ago, RShara said:

Except Odium is Hatred, not Anger?

Odium spoke of himself in one of Dalinar's visions as passion i.e. not just hatred.

In my opinion an Odium Cultivation cross over is a bad idea and the resulting shard would probably want to grow emotion which would be devistating if he could just grow mistrust among the Radiants.

[RShara she/her]

41 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Odium spoke of himself in one of Dalinar's visions as passion i.e. not just hatred.

In my opinion an Odium Cultivation cross over is a bad idea and the resulting shard would probably want to grow emotion which would be devistating if he could just grow mistrust among the Radiants.

Odium isn't Passion. He's lying to everyone, including himself, when he tries to convince them of that.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

Odium isn't Passion. He's lying to everyone, including himself, when he tries to convince them of that.

Do you have any evidence to back this up? admittedly aside from that one line I agree he only really seems to cause hate and contention.However he could be where the Passions we keep hearing about came from.

[Karger he/him]

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Do you have any evidence to back this up? admittedly aside from that one line I agree he only really seems to cause hate and contention.However he could be where the Passions we keep hearing about came from.

Well Frost seems to be the closest thing to an unbiased source of information in the Cosmere and even he says that Odium is divine hatred.  His passions also seem to be different from the normal ones.  IE Venli says the rythums sound different when she is in a form of power. 

[RShara she/her]

13 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Do you have any evidence to back this up? admittedly aside from that one line I agree he only really seems to cause hate and contention.However he could be where the Passions we keep hearing about came from.

You can find lots and lots of arguments on this. Search for Odium+Passion here and on Arcanum. I'm not at a place where I can quote them all to you, but yes, it's pretty much settled. I mean, he's literally the only one that calls himself passion. Everyone, Frost, Hoid, Syl and the Stormfather, all consider him Hatred. So does Brandon, actually.

Edited July 25, 2019 by RShara

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

4 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

I don't know if simply one competing Shardic Intent is enough. Odium himself would certainly hate it, since I think Brandon has said he is terrified of anything that could change his intent. However, Hate + Cultivation might simply change him from raging evil god to ice-cold, calculating evil god. That seems utterly terrifying.

Which is why a new vessel would be so important. Rayse would be out if the picture.

 

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Except Odium is Hatred, not Anger?

This is true, but I don’t think it’s hugely significant to the theory. Hatred and Anger can manifest in very similar ways, and combining it with another shard would have a similar effect as well.

[The Sovereign]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

You can find lots and lots of arguments on this. Search for Odium+Passion here and on Arcanum. I'm not at a place where I can quote them all to you, but yes, it's pretty much settled. I mean, he's literally the only one that calls himself passion. Everyone, Frost, Hoid, Syl and the Stormfather, all consider him Hatred. So does Brandon, actually.

@Booknerd there are others, but this WOB is likely what is being directly referenced. I'd say RShara has the right of it (per usual).

 

Quote

 

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So is the flavor-- Because I actually did have *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

 

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

*reading post about Odium*

*Someone mentions Odium might be Passion*

*Waits for Rshara's typical comeback*

*Realizes that I've been in a time loop ever since oathbringer was published*

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

*reading post about Odium*

*Someone mentions Odium might be Passion*

*Waits for Rshara's typical comeback*

*Realizes that I've been in a time loop ever since oathbringer was published*

Am I the only one who thinks that Rshara got so tried of correcting everyone that they just automated the "Odium is not passion" ahead of time using some fancy software?  I know someone has to do it every time someone makes such a theory and I know Rshara is one of the best people to do it as they are one of our best cosmere scholars but this pattern is starting to feal less Patterny and more broken record.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Karger

[RShara she/her]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Am I the only one who thinks that Rshara got so tried of correcting everyone that they just automated the "Odium is not passion" ahead of time using some fancy software?  I know someone has to do it every time someone makes such a theory and I know Rshara is one of the best people to do it as they are one of our best cosmere scholars but this pattern is starting to feal less Patterny and more broken record.

That sounds far too efficient for me.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Odium is worth about three sapphire broams and one fishstick. Just replying to the title of the thread. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Toaster Retribution

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Odium is worth about three sapphire broams and one fishsticks. Just replying to the title of the thread. 

You joking.  He is worth at least four and a half.  You forgot that in the current economy with anger management so widely available...

[cometaryorbit]

As for the Odium vs Passion thing... Odium is definitely lying about being all emotion (he doesn't include love for example, that's in Devotion's purview), but it does seem to be implied that there is more to Odium than just hatred in the normal sense. I think it's all aggressive/consumptive emotions, but anger being included seems likely.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

You joking.  He is worth at least four and a half.  You forgot that in the current economy with anger management so widely available...

Fair enough. I would argue that my original price is good if he were to go on sale though. 

[bxcnch he/him]

This seems to be a topic where you all may unanimously disagree with me, but, well...

I always thought of Odium as uncontrolled emotion, not just hatred. A lot of the protagonists hate something, like Kaladin hates opression, Adolin hated Sadeas, Dalinar hates himself, et cetera, and while the character development - and thereby, their "career" as Surgebinders - has so far often involved overcoming this hatred, I don't really feel like that hatred has made them more susceptible to Odium. If Odium really was only divine hatred, then I think the story would play out a lot more like Star Wars, with characters needing to restrain themselves to avoid corruption. I think the overarching (moralic) conflict is less about "hatred vs. love", but more about "ideals vs. irresponsibility".

The "good god" is called Honor, quite possibly the most vague concept of all the shards. What exactly honour means is a highly disputed topic with different answers depending on culture, time period and personal philosophy. In SA, judging from the magic system, honour seems to be defined as "making decisions based on higher values and ideals instead of one's own emotions". That is exactly what seperates the good guys from the bad guys in SA. Kaladin chooses to protect instead of taking revenge, Szeth puts the law over his own sympathy, et cetera. Meanwhile, Amaram warps and re-interpretes his ideals whenever they contradict his pseudo-messianic self-image and Moash just abandons all ideals in favor of "none of this is my fault anyway". The big step that would have made Dalinar a slave of Odium would have been saying "This isn't my fault". The entire war is a conflict between Honor (responsibility, facing the consequences, choosing to serve higher ideals instead of momentary desires - in short: acting like one's ideal self) against Odium (irresponsibility, doing things because you want to, acting out of emotions like greed, revenge, hatred or spite instead of higher values, not accepting that it's your fault etc.). In other words: The "good guys" are following values, the "bad guys" are acting out of emotion. 

So, looking at the motifs in the story, to me it would make a lot of sense if Odium is more about "uncontrolled emotion" than about just mere hatred. I think you could compare it to Siegmund Freud's concept of Id/Ego/Super-Ego. Honor is all about the Super-Ego, about trying to be a better person, while Odium is the Id, the raw, uncontrolled passion and desire (I don't know enough about Cultivation to properly explain the "Ego" part though). I know that the WoBs apparently kind of opposes this idea, but I don't really get the impression that Odium is meant to be "just hatred" from them either.  

[Elegy he/him]

6 hours ago, bxcnch said:

This seems to be a topic where you all may unanimously disagree with me, but, well...

I always thought of Odium as uncontrolled emotion, not just hatred. A lot of the protagonists hate something, like Kaladin hates opression, Adolin hated Sadeas, Dalinar hates himself, et cetera, and while the character development - and thereby, their "career" as Surgebinders - has so far often involved overcoming this hatred, I don't really feel like that hatred has made them more susceptible to Odium. If Odium really was only divine hatred, then I think the story would play out a lot more like Star Wars, with characters needing to restrain themselves to avoid corruption. I think the overarching (moralic) conflict is less about "hatred vs. love", but more about "ideals vs. irresponsibility".

The "good god" is called Honor, quite possibly the most vague concept of all the shards. What exactly honour means is a highly disputed topic with different answers depending on culture, time period and personal philosophy. In SA, judging from the magic system, honour seems to be defined as "making decisions based on higher values and ideals instead of one's own emotions". That is exactly what seperates the good guys from the bad guys in SA. Kaladin chooses to protect instead of taking revenge, Szeth puts the law over his own sympathy, et cetera. Meanwhile, Amaram warps and re-interpretes his ideals whenever they contradict his pseudo-messianic self-image and Moash just abandons all ideals in favor of "none of this is my fault anyway". The big step that would have made Dalinar a slave of Odium would have been saying "This isn't my fault". The entire war is a conflict between Honor (responsibility, facing the consequences, choosing to serve higher ideals instead of momentary desires - in short: acting like one's ideal self) against Odium (irresponsibility, doing things because you want to, acting out of emotions like greed, revenge, hatred or spite instead of higher values, not accepting that it's your fault etc.). In other words: The "good guys" are following values, the "bad guys" are acting out of emotion. 

So, looking at the motifs in the story, to me it would make a lot of sense if Odium is more about "uncontrolled emotion" than about just mere hatred. I think you could compare it to Siegmund Freud's concept of Id/Ego/Super-Ego. Honor is all about the Super-Ego, about trying to be a better person, while Odium is the Id, the raw, uncontrolled passion and desire (I don't know enough about Cultivation to properly explain the "Ego" part though). I know that the WoBs apparently kind of opposes this idea, but I don't really get the impression that Odium is meant to be "just hatred" from them either.  

I mostly agree. Brandon has repeatedly stated that no Shard is evil in itself. The problem is just them lacking context, so Odium without any opposing force holding it down is incredibly destructive. Also, as much as Brandon confirms that Passion would not be a fitting name for Odium (maybe it would be a fitting name for a Odium+Devotion double Shard), it's evident that he doesn't represent just hatred. When he shows Dalinar the Shard's power, it is described as a flame of hatred, but at the same time, Daliner mentions ecstasy and sensuality - that doesn't sound strictly like hatred to me. So there seems to be more to the Shard than raw hatred, although I believe that it's Odium's core attribute nonetheless.

Regarding the Freud part, I agree that Honor represents the rules that make a human being function in a society - laws, responsibilities, etc. -, while Odium represents what makes a human break these rules for selfish reasons, abandoning responsibilities; so I definitely see why that connection with Id and Super-Ego would be made. But I think we know enough about Cultivation to say that she doesn't really fit the Ego. She's a different concept entirely, the will to grow, and, in collaboration with Honor, the will to grow from Odium (weakness, not taking responsibilities) to Honor. Her Intent is basically what makes humans want to be better than Odium and reach Honor. It's not so much a decision/balancing between the two (which the Ego would be) but specifically the willingness to decide against Odium. Fittingly, Cultivation is not a balance or a mediator between Odium and Honor, but on Honor's side.

But yeah! Good thoughts all around!

Edited August 21, 2019 by Elegy

[Diego98 he/him]

In Magic The Gathering terms, Odium is Red, Honor is White and Cultivation is Green.

[Honorless he/him]

@Booknerd, a bit late but you might also find this WoB interesting:

Quote

Questioner

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

I would actually go for combining Odium with Honor or Devotion, seems safer than Cultivation

[The Kraken's Daughter]

I finished OB a couple of days ago, and I've been wondering ever since if the expansion in scope of Dalinar's "unite them" mandate will culminate in uniting Odium with Cultivation and/or the remnants of Honor. It reminds me of an episode of the original Star Trek where a transporter accident splits Kirk into two people. One is his impulsive, aggressive side and the other is his protective, compassionate side. While the impulsive Kirk causes a lot of problems, the split isn't as simple as "good Kirk" vs "evil Kirk." The side with no motivation or aggression is basically useless and couldn't command its way out of a wet paper bag. The impulsive side is only "bad" when it doesn't have anything to temper or restrain it. And I wonder if Odium is the same way. With Honor dead, things are out of balance, but they'd be just as stormed up (albeit in a different way) if Odium were gone completely. Maybe things will only be really, truly fixed by reforging Honor and reuniting him with the other two Shards. (And perhaps the ultimate endgame for the Cosmere as a whole is to reforge all the shards into this Adonalsium I keep hearing about.)