Civil war reactions thread (Spoilers)

[Voidus]

So....
Who else wants to engage in a thousand page discussion/review?

[Delightful]

Me! Me!

But the time is not yet right. :ph34r:

Edited April 30, 2016 by Delightful

[ParadoxicalZen]

Sosososo glad they've set the premise for Scarlet Vision <3333333333

And I'm happy with this Spiderman. Black Panther is awesome *_*

[Voidus]

I loved Scarlet Vision too, though it made SW's motivation for joining team cap a little flimsy to me. Vision is trying to be nice to her and she already feels guilty about having accidentally killed a bunch of people but then she just smashes him through the floor and joins team cap because... she's annoyed she has to stay in a mansion I guess?

[Quiver]

So, my thoughts?

It was good.

...I don't wanna be a downer or anything, because I did enjoy this film. The action sequences were good; very good. I'm not sure where I would rank the airport battle in terms of MCU fights, but it's definitely a good one.

Black Panther? Cool guy. I liked the juxtaposition between him and Tony; both rich, powerful men, motivated by revenge for their parents, but T'Challa decides not to be consumed by vengeance, while Tony holds onto some pettiness. "My father made that shield," is both wonderfully accusatory -how dare you use it to protect the man who killed it- and beautifully spiteful.

And yet, Tony remains sympathetic. I said I was Team Iron Man; this movie paints a compelling reason for Team Cap, and yet both leads ultimately come across as vindicated and valid in their beliefs. Brava movie.

Spider-Man was cool. Tom Holland actually reminds me (physically) of Tobey Maguire. I kinda think he stole screentime that Black Panther could have used, but this is Spider-Man in an MCU film. I'll take it.

...but. Let's not act like the movie is flawless. The Sharon-Steve romance, for instance, is terrible. They don't interact enough to earn anything, and the fact the kiss comes days after Steve's ex dies...?

And while I like the idea of Zemo -particularly since he both wins and lives, which is a novelty in these movies- I don't think he was quite integrated enough into the movie. The idea is compelling; his remorse for killing T'Chaka paints him as a more complex villain.

But, with so much of the movie built around Tony and Cap, he feel's a little divorced from proceedings. He's important, sure, but I didn't feel like he was prodding things along enough.

Also, can someone explain why Howard, apparently, was transporting blue bags of "stuff" which give people super powers? Cause that part still confused me.

Still, it was a good movie, and one I might see again... but Winter Soldier remains the best Cap film in my eyes.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Also, can someone explain why Howard, apparently, was transporting blue bags of "stuff" which give people super powers? Cause that part still confused me.

Still, it was a good movie, and one I might see again... but Winter Soldier remains the best Cap film in my eyes.

I was under the impression it was Kree blood but perhaps it might get cleared up in AoS

[Voidus]

And yet, Tony remains sympathetic. I said I was Team Iron Man; this movie paints a compelling reason for Team Cap, and yet both leads ultimately come across as vindicated and valid in their beliefs. Brava movie.

You think so? I went in team Iron Man with some sympathy for cap, I came out with pretty much no sympathy whatsoever. I mean they even basically imprison Bucky at the end anyway, so they just nearly killed a bunch of their friends for no reason.

[Delightful]

I was under the impression it was Kree blood but perhaps it might get cleared up in AoS

I assumed "generic substance to make them survive freezing". Unless being stuck in cold in the MCU now preserves all people instead of killing them. (???)

Edit: my brother theorised that it could be something related to the super soldier serum. It *was* found in the possession of Howard stark.

The Sharon Carter romance is definitely weird. It's like, can't have Peggy? I'll just take her niece then. And she obviously attracted to Cap but I think it's a Marasi/wax AoL relationship - Steve is much more powerful, they're hardly on equal footing.

On that note, I didn't even know Scarlet Vision was a thing but they're actually kind of adorable. I want to see where that goes.

Spider-Man is adorable and I want to hug him.

And Black Panther is majestic. I was a little "seriously he's black and his name is black panther, should we have black falcon now too?! And like white iron man?!" Except the black panther is an actually animal and it's awesome so that stopped bothering me. The moment he decided not to let vengeance rule him was beautiful.

Zemo - that's the sokovian guy? I'm a little confused as to what he was expecting to happen and what his actual plan was. It worked obviously, and he wasn't the focus of the story, I think I just need to watch it again and see what he was actually trying to do. Why did he specifically want to know what happened in 1991?

And that moment went they see the tape and Stark just looks at Bucky and that was heart wrenching. And and I don't even know what to say.

The airport scene was also just fantastic.

"Hey guys know that old Movie the Empire Strikes Back?"

"How old is this kid?"

"I don't know I didn't carbon date him".

And Vision shot Rohdey (sp?) out the sky and that one shot trough the helmet of just

Clouds falling past was terrifying.

And and basically all of the feels. So many feels in still cataloging.

One last thing, that didn't feel like 2.5 hours in a cinema, the time just flew, the pacing was wonderfully done and THEY FROZE BUCKY AGAIN! AND PEGGY DIED!!! :O and that last bit with Spider-Man was great. "Some guy called Steve. You don't know him. His friend was huge"

-"where are you from?"

"Queens"

"Brooklyn"

"....we haven't met yet...."

Ok. Ok. I'm done. I loved it.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Delightful

[Blackhoof]

It was brilliant!

 

 

I love how they completely skipped Spiderman's origin story. We have already seen two, we know how he becomes Spiderman. I honestly don't care at this point, he gets bitten by a spider, move on aha

 

Although I wish they had of kept Crossbones on a little more than 3 minutes, he was cool.

 

The use of Zemo was also interesting, as he is a Hydra leader in the Comics. Perhaps he gets recruited and escapes from Bilbo's prison?

[Blackhoof]

It got me thinking about, what crimes would we charge Superheroes if they obeyed laws like normal people? 

After all, Cap is just a tough, morally-righteous guy with a shield, what makes him better, from an objective third perspective, than a random off the street who might also have a shield and a sense of morality?

 

So I started looking at the things that they did, and what crimes we could charge them with-

For the airport fight, easily resisting arrest, assaulting a police office (multiple counts, assuming Team Iron Man counts as policemen after the Accords), massive property damage, and arguably reckless endangerment (if not attempted murder, for all the fighting and potentially dangerous things they did to Team Iron Man). Team Iron Man, of course, being deputised by the Accords wouldn't have to worry about any of that. But those crimes could easily land Team Cap in jail for a while, as they obviously end up there.

 

For Cap helping Bucky, easily many counts of assaulting police officers, resisting arrest, LOTS of reckless endangerment with the car chase.... not good Cap, that's gotta be a year in prison at least.  

 

And in Lagos.... well obviously the explosion is many counts of manslaughter for Wanda. And one could argue attacking those Hydra agents could have been murder/attempted murder/assault, because arguing self defence when you attacked them (although it was in defence of others maybe? but all the scientists were already dead? not sure) wouldn't work perhaps. Plus endangerment with all the shooting among civilians and such.

 

We let superheroes get away with a lot, don't we?

[Delightful]

Haaaang on is Crossbones the hydra guy from winter soldier? Is he superpowered or just scarred?

Bilbo Baggins?

And I totally agree. We don't need to see uncle Ben die. Again. And he never actually says he was bitten by a radioactive spider. I wonder if they have a slightly different origin for him.black Panthers lack of lengthy origin story was great too, there was exactly enough and then he was o and running with the others.

We let superheroes get away with a lot, don't we?

it always bothered me that the bad guy kills innocents and he's evil, the good guy smashes a ton of cars and people in a car chase and he's off Scott free. The accountability factor is done very nicely. (Especially compared to batman vs superman; there batman has a whole thing about how superman kills people, ten he goes and kills a ton of people himself. Just what??) Edited May 1, 2016 by Delightful

[Voidus]

It got me thinking about, what crimes would we charge Superheroes if they obeyed laws like normal people? 

After all, Cap is just a tough, morally-righteous guy with a shield, what makes him better, from an objective third perspective, than a random off the street who might also have a shield and a sense of morality?

 

So I started looking at the things that they did, and what crimes we could charge them with-

For the airport fight, easily resisting arrest, assaulting a police office (multiple counts, assuming Team Iron Man counts as policemen after the Accords), massive property damage, and arguably reckless endangerment (if not attempted murder, for all the fighting and potentially dangerous things they did to Team Iron Man). Team Iron Man, of course, being deputised by the Accords wouldn't have to worry about any of that. But those crimes could easily land Team Cap in jail for a while, as they obviously end up there.

 

For Cap helping Bucky, easily many counts of assaulting police officers, resisting arrest, LOTS of reckless endangerment with the car chase.... not good Cap, that's gotta be a year in prison at least.  

 

And in Lagos.... well obviously the explosion is many counts of manslaughter for Wanda. And one could argue attacking those Hydra agents could have been murder/attempted murder/assault, because arguing self defence when you attacked them (although it was in defence of others maybe? but all the scientists were already dead? not sure) wouldn't work perhaps. Plus endangerment with all the shooting among civilians and such.

 

We let superheroes get away with a lot, don't we?

My main problem is that realistically Cap and Bucky just murdered a whole lot of people, they didn't just endanger them. The movie plays it off like as long as you only punch or kick people it's impossible to kill them but we see Cap kick guys clear across the room with the same strength he uses to stop flying cars and helicopters, that would at the very least rupture some organs and cause them to need intensive care, at worst they probably just straight up murdered most of the cops sent after them. That's not even getting into the ones they punch in the head, I mean normal strength people can accidentally kill someone by punching them in the head, they even show later on that Bucky punching Howard is what killed him, but all those cops he punches?

[Blackhoof]

Haaaang on is Crossbones the hydra guy from winter soldier? Is he superpowered or just scarred?

Bilbo Baggins?

And I totally agree. We don't need to see uncle Ben die. Again. And he never actually says he was bitten by a radioactive spider. I wonder if they have a slightly different origin for him.black Panthers lack of lengthy origin story was great too, there was exactly enough and then he was o and running with the others.

it always bothered me that the bad guy kills innocents and he's evil, the good guy smashes a ton of cars and people in a car chase and he's off Scott free. The accountability factor is done very nicely. (Especially compared to batman vs superman; there batman has a whole thing about how superman kills people, ten he goes and kills a ton of people himself. Just what??)

 

yep, same guy. No powers I think, just some exoskeleton bits, although the way he shrugged off the taser-shot implies that he has some sort of inherent pain resistance as well. ("I don't work like that no more!")

 

haha yep XD

 

exactly! brilliant! All we need!

 

yeah, we give superheroes a lot of leeway. I mean usually they don't kill innocent people accdientally- they are lucky, and have usually perfect judgement when it comes to this stuff. they won't mess up due to fog of war like real cops and soldiers do, and attack the wrong place or blow up the wrong building. When they beat up someone who they think committed a crime- it is always the right guy.

 

 

My main problem is that realistically Cap and Bucky just murdered a whole lot of people, they didn't just endanger them. The movie plays it off like as long as you only punch or kick people it's impossible to kill them but we see Cap kick guys clear across the room with the same strength he uses to stop flying cars and helicopters, that would at the very least rupture some organs and cause them to need intensive care, at worst they probably just straight up murdered most of the cops sent after them. That's not even getting into the ones they punch in the head, I mean normal strength people can accidentally kill someone by punching them in the head, they even show later on that Bucky punching Howard is what killed him, but all those cops he punches?

 

Very fair point, although judging from the way we see Cap save some people, and Bucky saying "I won't kill people" (except when he accidentally nearly does) they have enough control of their strength to not punch lethally. Bucky at least, as a trained super-soldier, certainly has enough control to kill and not-kill when he wants to. Likewise, Cap is very familiar with his strength and hand-to-hand combat, I can imagine him controlling himself enough to keep the blows non-lethal.

 

 

 

 

Although, I am also a bit dissatisfied that no-one died. I thought for sure Rhodes was a goner. SHOULD have been a goner, would have upped the stakes a lot more. Reminded them that they shouldn't be fighting each other when the consequences are severe and real. Reminded them that they can't just shoot and punch their friends and expect it to turn out without consequences.

[Blackhoof]

And I am solidly Team Iron Man, but I have a lot of sympathy for Team Cap in that situation.

 

 

Well, providing the panel controlling them isn't incompetent (which is probably will be). Cap did raise some very good points, however, and only time can tell if he is right. Ultimately the fight was pointless because I feel like if Bucky had of been taken prisoner by Team Iron Man and imprisoned, they would have gotten to the bottom of the conspiracy eventually and he would have said ANYWAY "I'm too dangerous, freeze me".

Bucky should have said "let them take me, go to Siberia without me. After all, I don't need to go myself, and placing myself near a guy who can control me is a bad idea on my part! You go with Iron Man and stop Zemo, I am to dangerous to be out and about anyway."

 

But no, he doesn't!

[Delightful]

Maybe Bucky was just enjoying being himself and being in friendly company for the first time in 70 years?

I thought Rhodey was dead, and a few times I thought iron mans arc reactor bullet thing was broken and he was about to die. I was kind of surprised at the very end when he was still alive - happily surprised but still. It's rather inconsistent that stark shot at falcon but not vision, and vision is the one who actually knocked Rhodey out of the sky. Not that emotion has to be consistent.

[Blackhoof]

I think he realised that it was an accident on Vision's part, but Falcon was more responsible as being the original target of the shot.

[Delightful]

Basically, it's a mess, and superpowered friends shouldn't fight each other because everyone gets hurt.

It would be interesting if Stark built Bucky a new arm with some sort of tracker/kill switch so if someone mind controlled Bucky he could remotely be taken out of action until he came Back to his senses. That would have been something cool to play with.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Delightful

[Blackhoof]

Atm I don't think Stark will be building Bucky anything

 

Depends if Tony can forgive Bucky and by extension Cap. The implication at the end is that he has forgiven Cap at least a little, enough to call upon him if he needs the Cap-vengers.

[Delightful]

Atm I don't think Stark will be building Bucky anything

Depends if Tony can forgive Bucky and by extension Cap. The implication at the end is that he has forgiven Cap at least a little, enough to call upon him if he needs the Cap-vengers.

I mean, he doesn't destroy the phone immediately. I don't know if he's super ready to work with them.

I was just processing that Cap dropped his scratched shield and walked away from it. Does this mean it's the end of Cap as we know him? Will his priorities change?

......will Black Panther make him another shield ? :/

That was just so symbolically resonant.

He also drops his shield out the helicarrier in Winter Soldier.

[theuntaintedchild]

May be a stupid question but I thought that this movie came out like two days from now? How has anyone seen it?

[theuntaintedchild]

May be a stupid question but I thought that this movie came out like two days from now? How has anyone seen it?

Never mind. I hadn't considered foreign release dates being earlier. LOL. 

[Delightful]

Never mind. I hadn't considered foreign release dates being earlier. LOL.

Theoretically there are also usually early screenings.

[Blackhoof]

I mean, he doesn't destroy the phone immediately. I don't know if he's super ready to work with them.

I was just processing that Cap dropped his scratched shield and walked away from it. Does this mean it's the end of Cap as we know him? Will his priorities change?

......will Black Panther make him another shield ? :/

That was just so symbolically resonant.

He also drops his shield out the helicarrier in Winter Soldier.

 

yeah, hopefully Panther makes him another, theoretically he could easily do that.

So he is still Cap as we know him, but without the shield that Howard made.

 

yeah, laden with symbolism

[Orlion Blight]

That movie was a lot better than I thought it would be. Way better than it should have been!

[Jondesu]

So I went in expecting to be on Cap's team, and I came out solidly on his team, but it's so hard to really judge anyone's motivations.

 

Except Tony's.

 

He's arrogant and short-sighted, and he totally refuses to let go of this concept of vengeance… against the brain-washed super soldier who had absolutely no control over his actions?  He knows the story of how that happened.  I get being mad he wasn't told that Bucky killed his parents.  I don't get him trying to murder Bucky over it.

 

jW