What's a Dawnshard?

[Wonko the Sane]

Many people assume that the Dawnshards were the blades of the Heralds. However, there were also references to Honorblades, which could just as well be said blades. In fact, in the goodreads Q&A, Brandon specifically called these swords Honorblades. This being the case, what do you suppose the Dawnshards are? Honor certainly seems to believe that they are essential. It is interesting to note that Dawn- is used as a prefix in several other places, such as in Dawnsingers and Dawncant.

[leinton]

There is a theory that Honor split in a similar way to Adonalsium. Perhaps the Dawnshards are those pieces? Not sure if they would still be called Splinters if that's the case.

[Zas678]

If Honor Shattered into Dawnshards because of his death, then why would he be talking about Dawnshards before he died? Especially since he was kind of saying "I wish there were some again (or they could be found)."

[leinton]

Ah, it's been a while since I've read Way of Kings... been focusing on The Final Empire and Gardens of the Moon lately... forgot about that bit.

[CrazyRioter]

the only clue we have to what the Dawnshards might be is the epigraph about "said to bind all creatures voidish and mortal" or something to that effect.

Only thing I can think of is magical handcuffs. Which is just silly.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

My best idea is that it's part of something we have yet to see. Lame, I know.

[lordofsoup]

Instead of being Honor shattered, could they be pieces of his body, like Atium was part of Ruin's body. He gave up a part of his body, and it made Odium stronger than him.

[ZeldaDad]

@Silus

Not really that lame. When you consider the scope of the series, it would make sense that Brandon would not only leave many things out, but that he would also hint at these things so that everyone would want to find out in the next book, or the next, or the next, etc.

@lordofsoup

I think this is a pretty good theory. Something tangible left from the broken body would make sense. But when did he say he gave up part of his body? My WoK is a little rusty at the moment.

[Zas678]

Warning! Cosmere spoilers (not really though)...

It comes from the assumption that many have made which is as follows:

Fact: Rayse (probably Odium) splintered Aona's and Skai's shards, presumably so no one could take their powers. And he killed Aona and Skai.

Fact: Splinters (like Divine Breath) are non-human objects that hold part of a shard's powers.

So: Aona and Skai splintered into Splinters (assumably Seons and Skaze).

So if we know this, we can go like this:

Fact: Odium killed Tanavast (Honor).

Assumption: Odium doesn't want anyone to take Honor, so he can remain unchallenged.

So: Odium Splintered Honor.

Further So: Honor splintered into Spinters, which may be: Honorspren, Shardblades, Shardplates, Spren, the Storm, etc.

There is also the quote that they wanted Urithuru to be built in the West, to be closer to Honor. This could mean closer to Tanavast's body, or it could mean Honor's pool, or it could be the body of Honor (like Atium?).

I now realize that was mostly off-topic. Oh well.

Endra, it doesn't say in the book (that I know of). But Dawnshards sound like such awesome things, that maybe Honor gave a part of himself to make the Dawnshards (like how Endowment probably gives the Divine Breath).

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

@Silus

Not really that lame. When you consider the scope of the series, it would make sense that Brandon would not only leave many things out, but that he would also hint at these things so that everyone would want to find out in the next book, or the next, or the next, etc.

I meant lame as in, doesn't contribute to discussion.

I now realize that was mostly off-topic. Oh well.

You were just constructing the evidence for your idea of the Dawnshards being Splinters of some type. So it's all good.

[Zayde]

Fact: Rayse (probably Odium) splintered Aona's and Skai's shards, presumably so no one could take their powers. And he killed Aona and Skai.

Fact: Splinters (like Divine Breath) are non-human objects that hold part of a shard's powers.

So: Aona and Skai splintered into Splinters (assumably Seons and Skaze).

This assumes that the Reod was not Rayse killing Aona since I'm pretty sure Seons existed before the Reod. But I like the idea of the Reod being caused by the death of Aona since the death of Elantris's god feels like it would have a cataclysmic effect on the world and I'd say the Reod was pretty cataclysmic.

But it is possible that the Dawnshards are pieces of Honor's power, similar to Seons, Divine Breath, or Atium/Lerasium. And he doesn't have to be dead to give some of his power to humans to help in fighting the voidbringers. Since Leras gave the Scadrial Lerasium and the god in Warbreaker gives out Divine Breath, it makes sense that Honor would do the same to help the people of his world.

It's also entirely possible that Honorblades are a type of Dawnshard. But it's been a long time since I've read WoK and I'm not familiar with the details concerning Dawnshards and Honorblades.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Zayde

[Zas678]

Just a quick point- Lerasium isn't a Splinter (I'm pretty sure). Brandon says that we find Splinters in every book but that one.

17S How is a Splinter different from a Sliver?

BS: "Let me see... You have met splinters in Elantris, Warbreaker, and in Way of Kings. You have not met them in Mistborn."

And it's possible that Seons are Splinters that happened to be made before the splintering of Aona's shard. It just seems too coincidental, that Aona would splinter and that there are suspected Splinters on the planet.

[Wonko the Sane]

Didn't Brandon specifically say that Odium/Rayse did not cause the Reod, and that it was just an ordinary earthquake? I remember reading that somewhere.

The Honorblades were the ten swords of the Heralds. So far as we know, nine of them are still stuck in a circle in the ground somewhere on Roshar, and the tenth is laying on the ground at the gates of Kholinar. I would assume that Honor/Tanavast would know where they are, but he never even mentions them to Dalinar. However, he seems to believe that the Dawnshards could turn the tide of the war. Thus, it would seem that the Honorblades are trivial things when compared with Dawnshards.

Have we had any confirmation at all tht the Dawnshards are even weapons, much less swords? I can't remember anything. This seems like a small enough question to ask Brandon without getting RAFO'd.

No one has commented on the existence of at least two other things that start with Dawn: Dawnsingers, which were some sort of peaceful messenger from Honor/Tanavast, and Dawncant, which was a/the language spoken during Roshar's early history. I also believe I remember some mention of Dawncities, though for the life of me, I can't recall where or in what context.

[lordofsoup]

Shardblades are described as weapons "designed to slay dark gods" (prologue)

Honor is talking about Odium when he says that he does not know where the Dawnshards are so it can be concluded that Dawnshards could be used to fight Odium, a dark god.

[FeatherWriter]

I assumed that the "Dark Gods" mentioned in reference to the Shardblades were monsters like the Midnight Essence that Dalinar saw in his highstorm vision. There's something fundamentally different about the Heralds' blades and shardblades.

[CrazyRioter]

"dark gods" refers to the Voidbringers I guess.

the only real hint we have about the Dawnshards is that they bind creatures. Doesn't sound like swords to me.

[FeatherWriter]

Wait, has anyone theorized that the bonding-spren are the Dawnshards? Because they definitely bind people.

[grinachu]

Interesting thread guys, definite food for thought.

Two questions and one thought.

1. Chapter 2 I think is titled 'Honor is Dead'. But when did he die exactly? Can we guess or estimate?

2. A dawnshard is mentioned as being used after the age of the Heralds. What purpose was it used for? Was it destroyed by use? And why did the Unmade disappear sometime after the reign of Nohadon?

I like the idea that the Dawnshards are in some way related to Honor's power. I would say this theory works because one of the few things we know for certain is that the Dawnshards can bind any creature voidish or mortal and that is Honor's power, to bind things.

The Dawnshards are discussed in relation to choosing a champion, not taking on Odium directly. I don't think they have that kind of power.

Let's posit that Honor=God and the Heralds=Angels. A champion, perhaps a Herald, would be able to take on Yelignar (let's call him a Beelzebub equivalent) with the Dawnshards because they can bind any creature, voidish or mortal. I'm not entirely sure what 'binding' means, but presumably it would be a restraint or influence, perhaps an imprisonment?.

Is it possible that Cultivation and Honor worked together in creating the Dawnshards? We generally neglect Cultivation's influence on Roshar but one of the signal things about the planet are that you have two forces for good working on the planet pitted against one terrible force of evil. Hence things like the Dawncities and Dawnchant might have been joint projects between them.

Since we know that Honor works by binding things, perhaps there was an original compact between Odium and Honor (whether consensual or co-ercive) or perhaps even all three gods that they could each choose champions and equip them with certain powers? Hence the Heralds with their Honorblades and powers and the Unmade with their powers.

The further thought I have is, it is possible to combine splinters? Would it be possible that the Dawnshards are in some way a combination of Odium's power with Honor's? That would explain their power to bond creatures voidish and mortal.

I'm racing off into the wild hills of speculation here for sure...

[Zas678]

And that's the thing. The reason many are kind of cautious about Cultivation theorizing is that we know two things about her:

1. She can see into the future better than Honor.

2. She is on decent terms with Honor.

3. She's on Roshar.

Brandon forgot that he even mentioned her:

17th Shard: Is Cultivation a Shard on Roshar?

Brandon: Yes, Cultivation is. (very inquisitively) Where did you get that word?

17th Shard: It's in the book.

Brandon: Is it in the book? Okay.

17th Shard: It's mentioned once.

Brandon: Okay, one of the Shards form Roshar is Cultivation.

Besides that, all we have is this:

I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I.

(WoK 995)

As for this:

Since we know that Honor works by binding things, perhaps there was an original compact between Odium and Honor (whether consensual or co-ercive) or perhaps even all three gods that they could each choose champions and equip them with certain powers? Hence the Heralds with their Honorblades and powers and the Unmade with their powers.

I think that this compact is actually part of being a Shard. Like in HoA, how Ruin chose Marsh as his "spearpoint", and Vin chose Elend to fight for her. I think that this is a universal rule of Shardom.

You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are.

(WoK 997)

[grinachu]

And that's the thing. The reason many are kind of cautious about Cultivation theorizing is that we know two things about her:

1. She can see into the future better than Honor.

2. She is on decent terms with Honor.

3. She's on Roshar.

As for this:

I think that this compact is actually part of being a Shard. Like in HoA, how Ruin chose Marsh as his "spearpoint", and Vin chose Elend to fight for her. I think that this is a universal rule of Shardom.

(WoK 997)

Zas, I think we know more about cultivation than that. We know her shard name, we know her sex, we know quite a bit about her theology.

More importantly, we know that she has found a way to blunt Odium's power, independently of Honor.

We also know at one point, it was known generally there were three gods on Roshar.

And we are told about the importance of the dawnshards.

You are right that shardholders often work through surrogates, but when Scadrial was first created Preservation trapped Ruin himself at the Well of Ascension. We may suppose that at the beginning humanity was created on Roshar by one of these three or some combination thereof. I will note that Ruin and Odium are different powers. Ruin might thrive on the end of all life, but surely Odium needs hatred to sustain him, and for that hatred he needs men to be alive?

[Zas678]

More importantly, we know that she has found a way to blunt Odium's power, independently of Honor.

Wait, I didn't know that! Is that from a Q&A or from the text?

[grinachu]

Wait, I didn't know that! Is that from a Q&A or from the text?

It's on page 668 of 1036 in my ebook edition. It's Kaladin riding the storm just before the aged face tells him Odium reigns. Kaladin specifically observes that war was far less prevalent in the west than in the east.

[Zas678]

How does that prove that Cultivation is blunting Odium's power?

[Truthless]

Well, Cultivation is centered in the West, isn't she? It makes sense for Cultivation to be focused there - I can't cite text evidence, although I'm inclined to say there's a mention of it in a chapter-header.

Also possible: War happened mostly in the East because of Honor's presence as a focus for the resistance to Odium. Since Cultivation would not be directly fighting with Odium, there was never war in the west. It's kind of a push/pull thing, which I think has been hinted at: where the resistance Odium was strongest, he was strongest.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Truthless

[Zas678]

Ah, what you are thinking of is the quote where they wanted to build Urithiru in the West so it could be closest to Honor It is indeed a chapter heading.

pg 519 WoK

[About Urithiru's placement] And so it was that we asked for it to be placed Westward, in the place nearest to Honor.