Lift's Specialities

[Meg]

I thought it was interesting that Lift mentions she "Captured" Wyndel with words. I think she might even have said "I said the words" or something like that. And then later, she repeated something in her mind that sounded an awful lot like a First Ideal. My thought is that the First Ideal of the Edgedancers are the words she used to "capture" Wyndel, which would make her more correct than I think he believes.

 

Also interesting that Nalan/Darkness said, "You are an Edgedancer," not "you have the powers of an Edgedancer." I think this supports the idea that she has already said the words.

 

I'm not sure about her boon, but I'm pretty sure Lift would consider Wyndel her curse 

 

Uhm, please don't feel insulted, but when I read "Wyndel" my mind instantly changes it to "Windel". (Sorry, I couldn't withstand.) 

 

 

More seriously now: The First Ideal is the same for every (each?) Order (see Immortal Words). And apparently it's not necessary that the upcoming KR discovers the First Ideal themselves (Kaladin was told by Teft). 

 

 

 

 

 

Finding and saying the First Ideal doesn't make one a Radiant - it only puts them on the path. This makes me wonder, what benefit is there to becoming a full Radiant? There has to be something...

 

Also, I believe that Nalan's remark can be reasonably interpreted as purely semantic. "You are an Edgedancer" could easily be equivalent, in his head, to "You would be an Edgedancer, if you were a real Radiant." This being said, while I disagree with the significance you assign to these words, I too believe that Lift has voiced the First Ideal.

 

As about the First Ideal see above. But yes, I'm sure she said the Second Ideal of the Edgedancers. 

 

She says the Words of the Second Ideal in the text. That's before Nalan calls her an Edgedancer. Though the First Ideal is not there so that means she said it before.

 

Each Ideal makes the Stormlight more efficient.

 

Ooops (Second Ideal)

 

Do we already have evidence that Darkness == Nalan? I, too, think if Darkness is a Herald, he's Nalan, but it might be that Darkness is someone from Nalan's Order (or somebody who himself or his "organization" (try to) live the life and Ideals of Nalan's Order). Anyways, he knows enough to determine that Lift is an Edgedancer.

 

Ideals - Stormlight: I'm not sure more Ideals make the "Stormlight more effecient". I think, "leveling up" (for the lack of a better term) by discovering and saying the Second (Third ...) Ideal gives the coming Knights Radiant more possibilities to use the Stormlight and/or to use the Stormlight more efficient.

 

 

Last said: I've been distracted for a longer time while writing this post, but I'll hit the send-button now; hopefully it's not totally obsolet.  

[Argent]

No, we don't know that Darkness is Nalan. I am almost fully convinced, however.

 

I don't know how I feel about the efficiency thing. It seems too boring for one of Brandon's magic systems. The Ten Heightenings from Warbreaker are the closest thing to this I can think of, and there each Heightening brought not only the passive "can Awaken more stuff" perk, but also something unique. If anything, I'd imagine Brandon will make the Ideals at least as interesting.

[weebojello]

No, we don't know that Darkness is Nalan. I am almost fully convinced, however.

 

I don't know how I feel about the efficiency thing. It seems too boring for one of Brandon's magic systems. The Ten Heightenings from Warbreaker are the closest thing to this I can think of, and there each Heightening brought not only the passive "can Awaken more stuff" perk, but also something unique. If anything, I'd imagine Brandon will make the Ideals at least as interesting.

 

I think that's an interesting take...and I don't thinks it's unreasonable to speculate that Cultivation, with agreement from Honor may function somewhat similarly to Endowment.

 

So, if there are similarities, we are just talking degrees of difference, no? Kaladin is at the 2nd of certain number of ideals. I believe, 5 right? Endowment had 10 levels for breaths. Each level / ideal brought about increased power.

 

Regarding making the ideals interesting, I think that is one of the things I'm most looking forward to. My question ultimately is now that there is a herald (I assume Taln is alive, just passed out / weary), nominally able to talk to Dalinar / Kaladin, does that "jump start" Kaladin's development, or does Kaladin still "learn" all this stuff essentially blindly?

 

Oh well. Rambling again...

[Argent]

I was suggesting that, much like how each Heightening brings a unique perk (e.g. perfect pitch) alongside the increase in power, figuring out each Ideal will also probably do something more than just give the Radiant-in-progress better Stormlight utilization factor.

[blackmagic3]

I think she said, I will remember those who are forgotten. That sounded like an ideal to me.

[b4dave]

thats what I took it as too...seems a bit too deep to be an independent thought of her own

[Shardlet]

Agreed, definitely an ideal.

[blackmagic3]

In the ars arcanum each herald is associated body focus and by extension each order. Kaladins body focus was inhalation, therefore Lift's -through her metabolizing food into stormlight- body focus is blood?

[11thorderknight]

Lift's food-to-stormlight thing is unique to her, likely a result of her visit to the Nightwatcher. I am convinced, pending evidence to the contrary, that all surgebinders can inhale stormlight.

 

If you'll notice, Darkness has a pet Larkin to suck out Lift's stormlight from her. He then makes his minions keep all gemstones far away from her (raising chandeliers, etc) as they walk down the hallway. Now, Lift doesn't know what he's doing, probably because she's never had to access stormlight from gems. And Darkness doesn't know at this point what her Order is. But he does know that she has the Friction surge because he's seen her use it, so he knows she's either an Edgedancer or a Dustbringer (i.e. definitely not a Windrunner). So, at the very least, Dustbringers can access stormlight in gems at a distance (not just by touch). 

 

Also, while Lift has spoken the Second Ideal of the Edgedancers, she didn't do it during the Interlude. I think she did it before, and right before healing Gawx, she remembers it. Note her saying that she caught her "pet Voidbringer" with words. Also, the words in the Interlude are in italics, which is text for something the character is thinking, as opposed to quotation marks, which are spoken aloud. And we know from Way of Kings that the Words have to be spoken.

[WeiryWriter]

In the ars arcanum each herald is associated body focus and by extension each order. Kaladins body focus was inhalation, therefore Lift's -through her metabolizing food into stormlight- body focus is blood?

 

 

The metabolizing food into stormlight seems to be unique to Lift, it isn't something all Edgedancers have.  Also Blood is the body focus for Shallan's order, the Lightweavers.  The Edgedancer, body focus is the Eyes.

[blackmagic3]

Is there word of Brandon that all Surgebinder infuse through inhalation?

@Weiry You're right Shallan fits better. But I think healing as an attribute is different to a healing ability in regards to Edgedancing being the 4th order.

Edited October 23, 2013 by blackmagic3

[WeiryWriter]

Is there word of Brandon that all Surgebinder infuse through inhalation?

@Weiry You're right Shallan fits better. But I think healing as an attribute is different to a healing ability in regards to Edgedancing being the 4th order.

 

Brandon has pretty much confirmed Edgedancers being the 4th order.  (Keep in mind everything there might not be totally accurate, Peter is double checking with Brandon about the information revealed, but Edgedancers being 4 is certainly correct.)

[Meg]

Also, while Lift has spoken the Second Ideal of the Edgedancers, she didn't do it during the Interlude. I think she did it before, and right before healing Gawx, she remembers it. Note her saying that she caught her "pet Voidbringer" with words. Also, the words in the Interlude are in italics, which is text for something the character is thinking, as opposed to quotation marks, which are spoken aloud. And we know from Way of Kings that the Words have to be spoken.

 

I apologize, but I'm not with you here.

 

Reading the Interlude I got the impression that Lift was on her way to discover the Second Ideal. There is Lift's discussion with Wyndle when he asked her, why she came with Tigzikk to the palace.

 

“Why did you even come with them?” Wyndle asked, creeping out of the room. “Why not just sneak in on your own?”

“Tigzikk found out about this whole election thing,” she said. “He told me tonight was a good night for sneaking. I owed it to him. Besides, I wanted to be here in case he got into trouble. I might need to help.”

“Why bother?”

Why indeed? “Someone has to care,” she said, starting down the hallway. “Too few people care, these days.”

 

I think she would have answered in another way than she did, when she already had discovered the Second Ideal. Also I think that the situation with Gwax was the first critical situation (Gwax was dying) since Wyndle joined her. I'd almost say the "coming Radiant" has to undergo a "traumatic" situation to come up with the Second Ideal (this kind of reminds me of the Scadrian Snapping).

 

The talk when Lift and Wyndle found Gwax dying reinforces my impression, that she had not said the Second Ideal before.

 

“Can I use this to help Gawx?”

“If you were better trained? Yes. As it stands, I don’t know. You aren’t very strong, aren’t very practiced. And he might be dead already.”

She touched one of the vines.

“Why do you care?” Wyndle asked. He sounded curious. Not a challenge. An attempt to understand.

“Because someone has to.” (emphasizes mine)

 

Thus I'm sure Lift "said" the Second Ideal before, which in turn lets me stay with me believing that the Immortal Words don't have to be spoken loud.

 

 

 

The metabolizing food into stormlight seems to be unique to Lift, it isn't something all Edgedancers have.  Also Blood is the body focus for Shallan's order, the Lightweavers.  The Edgedancer, body focus is the Eyes.

 

Oh, it's confirmed that the Edgedancers are the Fourth Order? (You edited your post while I wrote this.)

 

And another thought that only just came up: I think, Lift isn't (only) metabolizing food, not directly, she seems to metabolize her own reserves (which have to be restored by eating).

 

“You’ve let yourself grow too thin,” Wyndle said. “Not good. You always use up the excess . . . Low body fat . . . That might be the problem. I don’t know how this works, honestly. It’s not supposed to work at all.”

 

 

Thus, I think, she has to learn to pace herself.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Meg

[Argent]

But didn't Kaladin's voicing of the Second Ideal come with its own visual effects? Small explosion of Stormlight, change of eye color, Syl going into overdrive?

[b4dave]

the first time he said it yes....i get the impression its not her first time...

[Mailliw73]

/>In the ars arcanum each herald is associated body focus and by extension each order. Kaladins body focus was inhalation, therefore Lift's -through her metabolizing food into stormlight- body focus is blood?

I thought this was a good idea, then I realized it wouldn't work with Skybreakers. How could they exhale Stormlight, without inhaling it first?

[Meg]

The Words, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind. In that moment, Kaladin was amazed to realize that he knew them, though they’d never been told to him.

“I will protect those who cannot protect themselves,” he whispered.

The Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant.

(TWoK, Chapter 67)

 

Kaladin whispered. Why should those Words be spoken loud? To be heard by ... whom? I'm quite sure the source of the voice Kaladin "heard" in his mind, would have "heard" him saying the Second Ideal only in mind, too.

Again, I'm sure it's about realizing the Ideals, not speaking them.

 

After he found the Second Ideal for himself his access to Stormlight increased, which was visible, yes. 

 

But this was who she was, who she had to be.

I will remember those who have been forgotten.

Lift leaned forward, touched her forehead to his, and breathed out. A shimmering something left her lips, a little cloud of glowing light. It hung in front of Gawx’s lips.

Come on . . . 

It stirred, then drew in through his mouth.

 

So there is a visible "result" when she heals Gwax. Not that sensational as Kaladin's, but ...

[b4dave]

it seems to me she expected it to work, as though repeating the words, even in her mind, would somehow trigger the magic, much like it would have when she get her Edgedancer abilities

[b4dave]

I also don't think that Stormlight is Invested in an individual in the same way for each order. My basis for this is that I don't think you see Jasnah or Shallan having their spheres go dark when they use their power, at least not as far as I have read...

[Shardlet]

It also seems to me that Kaladin achieved the first ideal without speaking the words out loud (when he made the decision to go back for Dalinar's army).  I think a choice must be made in a crisis point in accordance with the ideal coming into their mind.  I think that the choice is more important that actually speaking the words. 

 

 

I also don't think that Stormlight is Invested in an individual in the same way for each order. My basis for this is that I don't think you see Jasnah or Shallan having their spheres go dark when they use their power, at least not as far as I have read...

 

Jasnah consumes stormlight from gemstones (in the fabrial) when soulcasting as did Shallan when she soulcast.

[marianmi]

I think the words need to be "discovered" and then be backed up by intent.

It does not matter if they are spoken, as long as the person is aware of them, and has their intent.

Moreover, I don't think the ideals are actually "passed" on to a fellow KR, but the potential candidate is encouraged to discover them (like snapping). This is why TWoK is actually the book that contains all the ideals, in their most "accesible" form.

[Scott]

It also seems to me that Kaladin achieved the first ideal without speaking the words out loud (when he made the decision to go back for Dalinar's army).  

 

Kaladin actually spoke the first ideal in the Chasm before he climbed under the bridge using his rocks.  Its page 1049 in my softcover:

 

He took the pouch of spheres in his hand and tried to think the same way he had earlier, when he'd drawn in the Stormlight.  This is our last chance.

"Life before death", he whispered.  "Strength before weakness, Journey before destination."

The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant.  He breathed in deeply, and a thick jolt of power shot up his arm...

[Shardlet]

He said the words, but there was no internalization.  I think that it was that chapter when Kaladin began to internalize the first ideal.  But the part I cited previously seems a bit more powerful since it is a key decision point.  Read this bit and compare:

 

    He raised a trembling hand to his head, feeling the brand there, wet with his sweat. "I owe you nothing, Kholin."

    And his father's voice seemed to whisper a reply. Somebody has to start, son. Somebody has to step forward and do what is right, because it is right. If nobody starts, then others cannot follow.

    Dalinar had come to help Kaladin's men, attacking those archers and saving bridge four.

    The lighteyes don't care about life, Lirin had said. So I must. So we must.

    So you must....

    Life before death.

    I've failed so often. I've been knocked to the ground and trod upon.

    Strength before weakness.

    This would be death I lead my friends to...

    Journey before destination.

    ...death and what is right.

    "We have to go back," Kaladin said softly.

[Argent]

I am with Shardlet on this one.

[Scott]

Ah, I see your point.  I just remembered two other similar things that happened to Kaladin, not sure if they're related at all, but I figured I'd toss them out.

 

First, a few pages before my quote on page 1044.  Kaladin is having an argument with himself about leaving the Bridgemen:

(more internal monologue....)

If you leave, the voice seemed to say, then who will fight for them?  Nobody cares. Nobody....

What was it his father had said all those years ago?  He did what he felt was right because someone had to start.  Someone had to take the first step.

Kaladin's hand felt warm.  He stopped in the chasm, closing his eyes.  You couldn't feel any heat from a sphere but the one in his hand seemed warm.  And then - feeling completely natural about it - Kaladin breathed in deeply.  The sphere grew cold and a wave of heat shot up his arm.

 

The part about feeling the warmth from the sphere made me remember it.  It's almost like the Stormlight is calling to him, helping him understand what he needs to do.  

 

The second one's like a smaller version of the quote Shardlet gave.  Kaladin goes over the first part of the Ideal in his head, Life before Death.  It's on page 758 in my softcover:

 Sigzil's words echod in his head.  Life before death.  Strength before weakness.  Journey before destination.  Kaladin looked up at the crack of sky.  Like a faraway river of pure, blue water.

Life before death.

What did the saying mean?  That men should seek life before seeking death?  That was obvious.  Or did it mean something else?  That life came before death? Again, obvious.  And yet the simple words spoke to him.  Death comes, they whispered.  Death comes to all.  But life comes first.  Cherish it.

Death is the destination.  But the journey, that is life.  That is what matters.

A cold wind blew through the corridor of stone, washing over him, bringing crisp, fresh scents and blowing away the stink of rotting corpses.

Nobody cared for the bridgemen.  Nobody cared for those at the bottom, with the darkest eyes.  And yet, that wind seemed to whisper to him over and over.  Life before death.  Life before death.  Live before you die

 

 

On second read, it doesn't seem nearly as important, I had remembered the cold wind as something a bit more.  Regardless it may be of interest.  He could be slowly internalizing the oaths, culminating in the decision to save Dalinar.

 

 

 

I'm still undecided on whether the oaths need to be vocalized or just acknowledged.  The fact that very specific words spark in their minds tells me that they have some meaning.  It's possible the oaths just need to be communicated to the bonded spren.  Shallan has shown that people can communicate with some spren just by thinking at them.  I wish I knew if this was a trait that only Cryptics had.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Scott