Long Game 12: Shadows of Elantris

[Clanky he/him]

Maill, this is the best suspicion that we have at the moment. I don't have very much to contribute but I am also suspicious of Wonko. Main reason for that is his role claim as a vanilla Citizen when no-one was pressuring him to reveal it.  

[Herowannabe he/him]

Hreo: I was voting for Jain. I purpled Kipper's name in jest, so I assumed that it would not count as a legit vote. Apologies for any confusion.

Thanks. The purple looked red-ish against the blue text.

[Guest]

someone like Dow, Karlin, Mek/Fel, Kipper, or Winter on the team. I just doubt there's someone like Meta, Alv, or Claincy).

Well, first of all, thanks for making me feel like an utterly terrible player, Wilson. I know I've only played one game here, but in the intervening time, I did play a lot of mafia games elsewhere...

On to the discussion. I see Kasimir as suspicious. I'm not sure whether I want to vote for him or not, though. I have a couple reasons:

1. He's set himself up as the discussion leader, in my opinion. Now this is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on how one uses this position. Kas proceeded to set many criteria for what is a "useful" post, thereby discarding the opinions of people who don't follow that idea. (Note: If this is his normal playstyle, then I am probably wrong) You see, any of the more experienced players have a monopoly of sorts on the discussion. The experienced players are hardly ever voted on first by the riffraff. Take Mailliw, for instance. It took Alvron to vote for him, and then others followed. I am (sort of) scared to write this post, because I feel that I will be jumped on by Kas and bandwagoned. Anyway, that about sums up #1.

2. Stifling discussion of the Gyorn. Really? I've never understood the reasoning, even though the experienced have said it, but mainly Kas. The Gyorn's job is to be tricky with conversions. Obviously, he really only has two options, but do you think that us talking about it is going to change what he does? I would rather talk about an event now to understand it when it happens, rather than try to understand why it happened after the fact. I think it would benefit all of us to have more open discussion about the Cultists' and the Gyorn's plans. What else do we have to do?

3. Something about his posts just doesn't feel right to me. Just a feeling, so take that as you see fit.

All that said, I do not think Kasimir is a Cultist. I doubt that a Cultist would push for no discussion about the Gyorn. (And I just realized that a smart Cultist would, because we assume that they wouldn't...so I guess he could be a Cultist) I think that he is either the Gyorn, the Odiv, or a villager

Lastly, the experienced players need to stop denigrating everyone else's posts. Period. Just because people aren't as good at coming up with ideas for discussion doesn't mean that they aren't capable of understanding them. Take Clanky above me. All he did was agree with others that Mailliw is suspicious (Note: I townread Mailliw, for what it's worth). Is that a problem? No. But I'll bet people would still jump on him for just agreeing and not adding anything. His reasoning could have been the same as anybody else's, but if he comes to it later or simply agrees, bad things happen because of this "every post has to be useful by my standards" culture. No matter what Clanky does, if he wants to vote for Mailliw, he can be viewed as suspicious. It wasn't a useful post. He just agreed without discussing. He just repeated everything I said. Etc. Ah well. It probably won't stop, because reverse psychology, but it still irritates me.

Note: I'm better at clarifications than actually posting, so if you want a clarification, let me know.

Kas. Taking the plunge.

[little wilson she/her]

Well, first of all, thanks for making me feel like an utterly terrible player, Wilson. I know I've only played one game here, but in the intervening time, I did play a lot of mafia games elsewhere...

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I listed two groups of players there. The first level was the level of players who have played at least 10 games (and if they've played less, they're on the list because it's universally recognized that they're threats, like Claincy). The second level is people who've played at least 5 games and up to 9. It's not an insult to be on that list. I'm not saying the people on that list aren't as big of threats. I'm saying that there's not necessarily enough info on them to peg if they're a huge threat or not, so putting them on a team with Maill and Aonar wouldn't inherently unbalance the team. I'd throw Hael on that list as well, even though he's played less than 5, simply because I noticed after his first game that he'd be a major threat. But he still hasn't played much so he could be on a team with them.

I want to address some of the other things you said as well, but not right now as I'm on my phone, and I want to be on my laptop for that. For now, I'll just say that I didn't vote for Maill because Alv did. I was planning on voting for Maill regardless today; I just haven't been on my laptop for long enough to post on the thread until this morning (or I've been doing other things, non game-related on my laptop).

I highly doubt that Twei voted for Maill because Alv voted for him either. If you recall, she voted for Maill yesterday too, and Maill never responded to her. So that's three people who all voted for Maill of our own volition, with our own reasons, entirely independent of each other.

[Guest]

Perhaps. I was just throwing that out there as an example. I think that some players don't vote for the more experienced players first for other reasons too, one of them being that the more experienced players often act as though they are above suspicion. Some of my post was a larger commentary not limited to this game; no offense was meant.

[Bort he/him]

It's all a matter of trust. And that was the problem.

 

Borter Clams was new to the city, and the vast majority of the people he was associating with were well above his social standing, so he knew no-one here. There were a few, more vocal, voices that sounded like they were talking sense, until they decided to point the finger in Borter's direction. Shocked to the core, Borter nevertheless managed to stammer out a defense of his character.

 

Still confused as to what he could offer the Jeskeri cult apart from fish for their dinners, he mutely listened as conversation continued. Now the finger was pointing elsewhere. Had he saved his skin? He certainly hoped so.

 

Eventually, after a few suspicions were cast about, people seemed to settle on Hene Bata, or Maisao. While Borter's suspicions lay elsewhere, he did have to wonder about the pair of them. Besides, he wanted his vote to count for something, so he chose to lay aside his feelings on Dowanx for now. Maybe some new evidence would turn up later.

 

He considered the pair in front of him. Out of the two, he felt Maisao had contributed the most so, decision made, he went to find the Palace Steward to register his vote. Honey Badger.

 

Since the posts in the night cycle, I've been rethinking my suspicions. I'm still not convinced on Dowanx, but I'd rather not poke him with a useless, single vote. Yes, I know I could use the Duke vote too, but myself and a single other person as the only ones voting for Dow? No, not obvious at all, and I feel I should make at least some effort to protect their identity.

 

So, my vote today is going towards the person I think has contributed the least out of those offered. I don't really have suspicions on either of them, but I'm less convinced by Honey Badger's posts, so he gets my vote. I also thought about poke voting an inactive to try to get them posting, but this late in the cycle, and knowing I couldn't change the vote at the last minute, it would make me a bit of a hypocrite after I argued against such behaviour during the night cycle.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

First, Kas/Twei, I have given up on the tying lynch thing. I gave up halfway through last cycle when I realized it wouldn't do any good anymore. I see now why there isn't as much of a point to it now. 

 

Second, Wilson. Can't you see what's happening? You'll regret this again, and after twice, I think you might make my list. I haven't contacted you precisely because I always do. I wanted to get fresh perspectives on the game and you are the next contact on my list, which my pinch-hitter may have to make for me if I survive this day. I can't think of any PM where I asked for information on others. In every PM with a regular player, excluding one, they offered their own role and asked me what I thought. I didn't ask a single person who they could trust, but in fact, that's exactly what Throat/Mek asked me. S/he asked me who they could trust because surely I contacted others. If that's true, I now propose that Mek was trying to get you to lynch me. Mek claimed to be a Pirate with Alv as her hostage. Do with that as you will. 

 

Third, I didn't want to do this under this kind of pressure and would've preferred to keep it hidden in my PMs, but I have the Korathi Pendant. If the Priest has some way to contact me, I suggest he do it soon or add himself to my list of wanted contacts. Currently Wilson and then Seonid are the next ones. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by Mailliw73

[Metacognition he/him]

Meta, what made you give reasons for suspecting Winter, but not Claincy or Mek?

 

 

(No RP right now.)

 

A couple reasons. First, I was hoping to see if anyone might try to defend Winter while she was gone; aka, a likely teammate. Because, if I'm right there, I suspected that the Cultists would want to speak up to defend one of their own. The fact that they're not means I'm either completely off or that they've got some experienced players on their team! 

 

The other reason is because I planned on coming back and going through my reasoning a bit later, which I'll do so (in brief, because I don't have as much time as I suspected I'd have this weekend) now. 

 

My biggest concern with Mek is two-fold. One, as I've said before, I don't like how much everyone keeps trying to hammer the idea that the first day bandwagon was such a bad thing. That just hasn't made sense to me from the get go. Sure, there are times when a late switch in the votes is suspicious and all, but that wasn't one of them. As such, I have to ask myself, what is the motivation behind trying to vilify that bandwagon and the reasons that I keep coming back to is that it's an easy place for the Cultists to go after (late switches are typically looked at suspiciously after all) and that by focusing on the people who formed the bandwagon, they keep people from looking too closely at Mek's new alignment. As I've said before, some of the people (Jain, for example) going after the bandwagoners seemed to take Mek's new alignment as if he was confirmed a villager a little too quickly for me to not be suspicious of it. 

The second reason I suspect Mek is because Orlok died the very next night. Mek was the main person to suspect that Orlok was part of a lover pairing and then, the next night, after Mek gets a new role and alignment, Orlok dies? I surely didn't put too much into the idea that Orlok was part of a lover pairing and I didn't see anyone else agreeing with him on that point. So the Cultists did and no one else? Granted, Mek was the one to point out that the Cultists likely figured similarly to him, but that very well could have been him getting out in front of it, IMO, before we puzzled it out ourselves.

 

Jain and Bort are on here due to previously stated reasons, so I'd rather not have to rehash them again. I will though, if anyone wants me to. 

 

And Claincy is more of a gut feeling at this point and somewhat tied to my suspicions of Winter. He's also riding that line between being helpful and yet noncommittal. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Forgot to do this earlier: Honey Badger

 

And, Wilson, you doubt my trolling ability? You think I need Aonar's help to come up with witty remarks? Haven't you learned yet? I'm no longer a semi-troll. 

[Bort he/him]

Not much. The server was down for quite some time.

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

Are you suggesting I have no life, Claincy? Because y'know, you'd actually be quite right. I play Sanderson Elimination to procrastinate off work (and to switch my brain off, which kind of explains a lot of the questionable decisions and posts I make), and sometimes my procrastinator tendencies get out of control. (See: your thesis is your life.) So to be fair, I really should be less active than I am now, huh.

[Thesis before procrastination, research before slacking, work before play. I will unite instead of divide, Supervisor. I will bring different objections together. The Graduating Students shall rise again!]

Echoing the 'I don't take notes' aspect though. I'm more a pantser than a note-taker. Again, explains so much >>

Anyway, several things. First, I'd brought up Ostrich, in part because I'd seen him reading the thread a Turn or two ago. So when Hreo provided the clarification on the pinch-hitters, I figured it wouldn't be a bad thing to try shedding some light in that direction. Another reason was, I felt Bort and Jain had been talked to death the previous night and wanted to shift to something completely different for a bit. (See: Mek's "We will do all the things! That is just what is going to happen.") At this point, there is a possibility I may not be on again in time for rollover, so I'm not very keen on leaving my vote on him.

Second: I'm going to steal Seonid's brilliant idea and follow the M'Hael's lead in extending it here. I hereby affirm that I have neither been converted, nor attacked by the Cultists. I am therefore not the bearer of the shattered Korathi pendant.

Third, the person who was attacked has been strangely silent and I reckon it's been about 24 hours. I confess this makes me a little more willing to believe they are Arelish, simply because I imagine a Cultist pulling a WGG would be ridiculously excited to admit they'd been attacked right out the gate. (This doesn't entirely eliminate any suspicions I might have towards said person, though. No sense in being reckless.) At the same time, I really wish they'd come forward, because they're hanging on to information that would be useful to have. (Granted, they could be an inactive. At least we know for sure they cannot be an Elantrian unless--Hreo, could you confirm that no one who begins as an Elantrian could begin with a Korathi pendant please? (In essence, this question asks if the logic of the game means that if that person began with a Korathi pendant, that pre-game Shaod could not have hit them.))

Fourth, as there is a chance I might not get back before rollover, I'm going to put a vote on Kipper. Of all things, you miss the meme?! More seriously: I have thought about this. I'm not exactly happy with adding more fuel to the Hufflepuff-Maili lynch train. On the one hand, I agree that I am rather allergic to players playing the 'I'm new and lost' card. Yes, I played it in LG5. Ash and Binnt riffed off it on LG6. Phatt capitalised on it in QF6. And I know that it doesn't necessitate that the player is a Cultist faking it: they could genuinely be barely keeping afloat. At the same time, I have to balance that with the acknowledgement that Eliminator teams do not hesitate to cash in on newness or perceived newness, because we do tend to give newer players a free pass on weird stuff. Ultimately though, I don't feel strongly enough about things to choose to come down on Hufflepuff today.

Similarly, I'm not quite sure what to make of Maili. As Twei has said, I'm not exactly a fan of his vote-tying strategy: or at least, I'd like to know why. Presenting a tie seems to me to be only effective if there's going to remain a menu of options, allowing the vote manipulators the choice of lynch. If, by the time the lynch comes down, there's a clear leader--then why present a tie in the middle of the cycle? Especially when there has been a general consensus on lynching lurkers if push comes to shove? And what about debtors? Surely it must have occurred to you that a debtor would be unlikely to leave a tie standing for long? Despite all these questions, though, I don't feel certain enough, and I don't like leaving a lynch-deciding vote when there's a decent chance I mightn't be able to get back in time to deal with further developments.

So I'm instead going to put a vote on Jain. I get it that you said that at the point in time, it appeared to you that Wonko was about to be lynched by a two-vote majority. Fine. But that was 6:54PM on the 27th May. That's at least 16 hours to the lynch, and a lot of time. And it wasn't as if you were thinking you mightn't be back in time later on. Because you were: 5:44AM on the 28th of May. Throwing an extra vote on Wonko doesn't make sense in two ways: first, given your passing it off as because he wasn't "[responding] to [his] accusations", and second, given the high volatility of voting in the previous cycle and a decent amount of time to rollover, that state of affairs doesn't seem particularly stable. Even if it wasn't, why close off the lynch early and block further discussion? Something about this just seems a bit strange. And I get that it could be a mistake and it's therefore annoying that everyone is chasing you for it. But all the same, I have to admit that it seems a lot like trying to discreetly smuggle a vote in on a lynch-wagon. [besides, you called out Wonko for bandwagoning, but isn't throwing a vote on an ongoing 'two-lynch margin' train just more of the same--with only a difference in degree rather than kind?]

This is the best I have right now. If I'm wrong about you, Jain, then I'm sorry, for all that's worth.

For the love of pandas, how many times do I have to repeat myself!? My vote on Wonko was an idiotic mistake, and I didn't think the consequences through.

Snoopy, Kas has always had an aggressive and dominant playstyle. He's not a member of the Wyrm Inquisition for nothing.

Meta, why are you continually heckling me about my errors?

[dowanx]

Hey guys sorry for missing the last couple of days.  I came down with a really bad flu and barely could function.  I have been able to log in and check up on the forum a little, but was not feeling nearly good enough to write a post.  I barely feel good enough to type this atm  To make a good vote I need to go read all of the posts today.  I will try to have my vote up within the next 2 to 3 hours.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

I have not read most of this, but I needed to post this NOW.

 

We NEED a Jindo protector on Phatt. He is the priest and the cultists know it. he was attacked last night, but survived on a Pendant he was given by Renegade.

 

He also says Maill should give him his pendant.

 

He has scanned Wilson and Ren as loyal.

 

Zas is a convert. they have three votes on him, as it's either him or Neo, and they figured why help the Gyorn. So I will switch my vote to Zas.

 

Sorry about the delay (again). I will say more when I have actually read this thread.

 

EDIT: Zas says there is no other convert.

 

I will be spotty; at a birthday dinner with my family. Sorry!

Edited June 1, 2015 by Wonko the Sane

[Haelbarde he/him]

Got some analysis and stuff coming, but don't have time to type it out now. I made a vote count though:

 

Ostrich: Kas <1>

Piff: Araris

Kas: Kipper

Honey: Claincy Mail<1> Bort

Mail: Alvron twelfth wilson Clanky

Jain: Kas<2>

Mek: Mail<2>

Zas: 3 Elantrians + Wonko 

 

Ie, so 4 on Mail and Zas, 2 on Honey, and 1 on Mek, Jain, Kas, and Piff

[Metacognition he/him]

Just being a Convert isn't enough for me to vote for Zas. We want the converts to be able to come forward, so killing them just because sounds like a horrible idea! No, this sounds more like a trick (by Wonko or Phatt, I don't know) to try to get someone other than Maill lynched, so that's where my vote is going! 

[Kasimir he/him]

Apologies for sitting on this. I have been contacted at the start of the cycle by a Seon-holder named Spook2 who wishes to remain anonymous.

Funny thing is, Spook2 also claims to have contacted Elantris. They support claims of an Elantrian convert but also claims the Elantrian suspicions are: Jain, Wonko, Bort.

I sat on this because I was waiting for Spook2's permission to act as their liason with the thread, and had to throw off the timings to disguise Spook2's identity. Make of this what you will.

The Phat situation seriously stinks. As an Elantrian, he can only scan within Elantris, if he's really a Priest. So why should this be a major threat to the Cultists? Similarly, I'm with Meta--being a convert isn't sufficient reason for me to lynch Zas.

More importantly--how then did the information on Phat leak to the Cultists? We know he has/had a Seon but who were his points of contact? Surely contact tracing, in that case, would yield a suspect! The last I checked, Cultists do not have a Priest! If we work off the assumption that Phat is a priest and he's right about Wilson, the only three possibilities seem to be: A. He roleclaimed to whoever he contacted on Day One, B. He roleclaimed to a Seon-holder who is evil, C. He role-claimed in the Elantris PM. Elantrians reading this: Can you please help us out here?

I don't want this to remain too close, because of vote shenanigans, so Jain. Maili.

Edit: The point on Wilson matters because she mentioned Phat contacting her on Night One.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Kasimir

[The Honey Badger he/him]

I agree with Meta and Kasimir, I think that converts should be talked to so we can get information from them, not silenced forever. And that is is probably a ruse, to distract us from malil, so Mailliw.

 

@Bort, I understand that out of the names thrown out there I may be the shakiest, but I will attempt to speak my mind about anybody and any suspicions I have in the future to contribute to the discussion. 

[Haelbarde he/him]

Amusingly, the only way to verify a priest, outside of a second priest, is by the Gyorn or Odiv. So it's not impossible that the Gyorn might know his role, but the cultists could only know if they were in contact with the Gyorn, which seems unlikely.

 

Edit: Also as it stands, if Wonko is correct, then Zas will be Hoed regardless of the outcome unless the number of votes on him drops to under 3. In which case Zas, it may be worth picking your 5 words so that you can communicate who the Converts are (presume you still get updated with those details). Yes or No work well, plus being able to count somehow - point out who converts are by counting to their number in the player list, and then once someone correctly identifies them, confirm it. 

 

Question for the GMs: Do we see the Elantrian votes? Do we find out if one becomes Hoed?

 

The other thing is a suggestion for any villagers with poison who have no idea what to do with it. We could possible use it to send a volunteer into Elantris for two cycles to help facilitate communications. Just a thought.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Haelbarde

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Well, if you leave Maill alive, he can verify. Or spencer's heir can come forward. Plus, I know Wilson's role, but have kept it private. I can reveal it for her to confirm, if you want more evidence.

 

At least one Elantrian is a Cultist; they were the only ones who knew Phatt's role. Ren and Phatt are safe, and Neo is the Veteran Elantrian, as well as the newer and less dangerous player. I don't know whether I agree with it, but I understand their decision.

 

If we don't lynch one of them, it is even more vital that Phatt be protected tonight, so that he has a chance to scan his fellow Elantrians.

 

Now that I think about it, the attack does seem odd. He was able to clear Wilson, though, so maybe it's that? Or maybe they just didn't want to lose their foothold in Elantris? Or maybe you're right, and Phatt's playing me; I tend to be easy to play. It looks like Maill's going to die, so I'm withdrawing my vote from Zas; the Elantrians are enough to Hoed him, so my vote's doing nothing. Barring further developments, I will abstain this round.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Pifferdoo. I guess with all of the vote manipulation in this game, another vote on Mailliw won't hurt.

[little wilson she/her]

All right. On my laptop, finally.

 

First up, Kipper's post. I'm going to take this in sections, and I want to make one thing clear: I'm not doing this as any kind of defense of Kas. Now, I personally don't think Kas is evil, but that's because he's playing exactly like he always does, and he has a very certain tell (at least for me) that gives away when he's evil. But I don't expect other people to know that, so I don't care if he gets called out. He can defend himself if he wants. I want to comment on some of the things said in here because I really don't like the message that this post is giving off.

 

1. He's set himself up as the discussion leader, in my opinion. Now this is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on how one uses this position. Kas proceeded to set many criteria for what is a "useful" post, thereby discarding the opinions of people who don't follow that idea. (Note: If this is his normal playstyle, then I am probably wrong) You see, any of the more experienced players have a monopoly of sorts on the discussion. The experienced players are hardly ever voted on first by the riffraff. Take Mailliw, for instance. It took Alvron to vote for him, and then others followed. I am (sort of) scared to write this post, because I feel that I will be jumped on by Kas and bandwagoned. Anyway, that about sums up #1.

 

My issue with this part is everything that's said about the experienced players. I strongly disagree. Now, you can blame this on me being an experienced player who just doesn't like the riffraff getting involved, but that's not what it is. I don't play this game going "Oh, Meta is more experienced than Wonko, so his opinion is more valid." Uh, no. Literally anyone could be evil. It's about what is being said as opposed to who is saying it. And I'd like to think that most of the other experienced players are the same way. It's not about who. It's about what.

 

So why do the really experienced players tend to not get voted on at the beginning? Well, it's probably because they've played enough games that they have a good idea of how to cover their alignment and their tells of their alignment, so it takes a few cycles for people to notice that there's something off. It might not even come out until they screw up by defending a heavily-accused teammate that they probably should've left out in the wind. But that's not to say that experienced players don't take votes. You bet we do. Let's look at this game alone.

 

Day 1: Maill started right off voting for Meta. Kas voted for me. Meta voted for Aonar.

 

Day 2: Clanky voted for Twei. Kas voted for Luckat. I voted for Maill. Twei voted for Maill. Meta voted for Jain. Aonar voted for Alvron.

 

And then we have today, which is mostly Maill, but Kas voted for Jain.

 

Sure, most of these votes are from other experienced players for experienced players. But I don't see how that makes a difference. None of the so-called "riff-raff" jumped onto any of those votes, unless you want to call Clanky riff-raff for jumping on Maill, because I'd definitely group me and Twei in with the experienced players. But I personally don't think anyone is a lesser player just because they haven't played as often. We're not some elitist group that no one can join. If we were, we wouldn't be so quick to offer advice to newer players. Just ask Orlok how "elitist" we are. Oh, wait. He's dead. We can't.

 

My point here is that it's not experience that determines whether a person's post gets discarded or not. It's the content of the post. Is there anything substantial in it? Is it adding anything new to the discussion or is it simply echoing what everyone else has said? Now, I'm sure you're thinking that it doesn't matter if someone is just echoing everyone else, but I beg to differ. It matters greatly. Anybody can say "I agree with what these people have said," pop a vote on someone, and call it good. If that person gets lynched and found to be a villager, there's not content in that vote to analyze. Did the person actually have a good reason to vote for them? Did they really find that person suspicious? Or were they an eliminator tacking an easy vote on because they wanted to kill a villager? It's impossible to tell with a vote with no content.

 

This is why we shouldn't just be voting willy-nilly. We need substance to the votes. Reasons about why. Now, if the vote has a 4-5 majority, and someone throws a vote on to make it harder for vote manipulators to change it, fine. But the people who voted before that had sure better make sure they've got reasons, and the person who sealed the vote had sure better make sure that they've never been contrary to people doing that in the past.

 

2. Stifling discussion of the Gyorn. Really? I've never understood the reasoning, even though the experienced have said it, but mainly Kas. The Gyorn's job is to be tricky with conversions. Obviously, he really only has two options, but do you think that us talking about it is going to change what he does? I would rather talk about an event now to understand it when it happens, rather than try to understand why it happened after the fact. I think it would benefit all of us to have more open discussion about the Cultists' and the Gyorn's plans. What else do we have to do?

 

I agree that we need to be discussing the gyorn, but I disagree that we need to be discussing gyorn strategy. Why? Because if someone mentions an incredibly clever strategy in the thread and the gyorn hasn't thought of it, they'll probably adapt it into their plans. You might not think that'll make much of a difference, because hey, we know what they're doing. But if we hadn't told them what to do, it might've been a heck of a lot easier to find them. And this is why we shouldn't be posting strategies. Yes, it would be nice to discuss things now rather than try to figure it out after the fact. But how would those discussions really help us? They'd be telling the gyorn exactly what to expect so they can start planning against us before we even know what they've done. Simply by virtue of us discussing so much that they know what we'll do under any scenario. So discussing how to hamstring the gyorn or who could possibly be the gyorn is fine. Discussing gyorn strategies when we don't know what they've done (besides convert Elantrian) isn't.

 

 

Lastly, the experienced players need to stop denigrating everyone else's posts. Period. Just because people aren't as good at coming up with ideas for discussion doesn't mean that they aren't capable of understanding them. Take Clanky above me. All he did was agree with others that Mailliw is suspicious (Note: I townread Mailliw, for what it's worth). Is that a problem? No. But I'll bet people would still jump on him for just agreeing and not adding anything. His reasoning could have been the same as anybody else's, but if he comes to it later or simply agrees, bad things happen because of this "every post has to be useful by my standards" culture. No matter what Clanky does, if he wants to vote for Mailliw, he can be viewed as suspicious. It wasn't a useful post. He just agreed without discussing. He just repeated everything I said. Etc. Ah well. It probably won't stop, because reverse psychology, but it still irritates me.

 

I've already addressed most of this in the first point, and I still hold to that. The more reasons we have for why people are voting for someone, the easier it is to find the faulty logic and that makes it easier to find the eliminators. It's not about every post being useful to my standards (or any other experienced player). It's about meaningful, substantial discussion because without that, we might as well give up and let the Cultists kill us all.

 

Kipper, I'm not sure if it's because you've gotten used to the way the mafia forum does things so you don't like that we're different and you're trying to force us into being more like them, or if it's because you're evil, but that entire post reeks of subversion. It's like you're trying to get everyone else to team up against the experienced players for the simple reason that we're experienced, and you're using reasoning that doesn't even apply. Now, if we were actually saying things like "Hey, you need more reasoning to that post otherwise you're totally an eliminator!" or "You disagree with me and therefore you're wrong" or anything like that, then you'd have a point. But nobody has said anything remotely like that that I've seen, and if they did, I'd be all over them like butter on bread. Everyone plays this game differently and there's no right way to do it. There's not even some ways that are better than others, and I would never vote for someone just because they're doing things differently than me. It's about their explanation for it. 

 

Second, Wilson. Can't you see what's happening? You'll regret this again, and after twice, I think you might make my list. I haven't contacted you precisely because I always do. I wanted to get fresh perspectives on the game and you are the next contact on my list, which my pinch-hitter may have to make for me if I survive this day. I can't think of any PM where I asked for information on others. In every PM with a regular player, excluding one, they offered their own role and asked me what I thought. I didn't ask a single person who they could trust, but in fact, that's exactly what Throat/Mek asked me. S/he asked me who they could trust because surely I contacted others. If that's true, I now propose that Mek was trying to get you to lynch me. Mek claimed to be a Pirate with Alv as her hostage. Do with that as you will. 

 

I regretted the first time because I wrote an entire essay analyzing every single one of your posts and I got tunnel vision and I was wrong. This time is entirely different. It's mostly gut coupled with things I've heard from other players and other things that you've said that don't quite match up. I'll admit that I'm far from certain. To be honest, if it weren't for the votes on Zas, I'd remove mine from you, but since now it's either you or Zas, I'm stuck.

 

I don't want to set a precedent for lynching converts simply for them being converts. I think that's a terrible idea. It's even worse that we're lynching one of the original Elantrians (who we already decided were likely not infiltrated by the Cultists). Maybe the Gyorn hasn't chosen an Odiv. He probably hasn't. So why lynch Zas? What if he's the veteran Elantrian? We're going to need that person alive in order to have the best chance at exploring the city safely, so lynching any of those three simply because they had the misfortune of being converted is faulty logic. Phatt is in there. If one of them becomes the Odiv, he can check them again. And guess what? He'll see the Odiv as being Shu-Dereth. So why do we want to lynch Zas? Why is this a wise idea? You all realize that he'll become Hoed and therefore essentially useless right? Let's just protect Phatt for now and focus on what's going on outside of Elantris.

[Haelbarde he/him]

Oh, and re: poison - we did send someone in, they could be scanned by phat, if he were still alive. It's obviously not a great idea though - takes the player of the discussion for 2 cycles. 

GM query: Is Mailliw able to gift his pendant before the lynch goes through?  (The pendant doesn't protect him from the Lynch, right?)

[Herowannabe he/him]

Question for the GMs: Do we see the Elantrian votes? Do we find out if one becomes Hoed?

yes and yes

[little wilson she/her]

I just noticed Wonko's post about the Elantrians, and Neo being the Veteran. I still think we should let Phatt figure out who it is and as long as we keep in contact with them, we'll know and we can lynch them. Lynching blindly there isn't wise, I don't think. Those with Korathi pendants should send to Phatt.

 

And I don't think the pendants can be gifted on the cycle the person dies, but I believe that someone can be named the heir? Or is that only with Seons? 

 

EDIT: And Wonko, if you think it's necessary to reveal my role, fine, but I would prefer if you didn't.

[Haelbarde he/him]

yes and yes

Cool, so Wonko's Intel can potentially be verified. Did see my second question about gifting items and lynches?