11thorderknight

Yes, we do know something about time and Shadesmar - we know that it passes incredibly fast there, so that whatever happens takes almost no time in the physical realm. Remember, Jasnah visits Shadesmar every time she soulcasts, and we've seen her soulcast incredibly quickly. To an outside observer, had there been one, Jasnah's adventure would probably have consisted of her standing still for a few moments, then shaking herself off looking frazzled, and going about her way. Chances are, she was already running late for her meeting as she left the party. I will say that the Tearim mention was interesting, for sure, but definitely not conclusive. Remember, Gavilar himself is known as one of the world's great duelists; anyone whom he hired as his chief bodyguard would have had to be really, really good in order to be worth the bother. Regarding the timeline, even though Jasnah's adventure and the conversation with Liss probably didn't take that long, don't discount how long it would have taken Jasnah to move around the palace. Remember, that palace has been around since Nohadon's time; it's probably HUGE. And wherever she met with Liss wouldn't have been super-close to the main part, since it was basically deserted. Shaken up as she was after her episode, it probably took her a good 15 minutes to walk there and compose herself. Two other points. One, whoever it was that died, had Gavilar's Blade. Now, it's possible that Gavilar had secretly given it to Tearim, but that would have been a major, major thing for him to do. If he did it right on the spot, it would have been stupid, since he's then without any protection against the coming Shardbearer. If he did it before, it would have been viewed as a huge scandal. Also, for Tearim to be one of the worlds best duelists, he may well have had his own Blade anyway. Last point - At the start of their fight, Szeth knocks "Gavilar" down and runs after the escaping party. He noticed that "Gavilar" seems oddly slow to get up, realizes the "king" is a decoy, and doubles back, at which point Gavilar really starts to fight. If "Gavilar" was really Tearim, he wouldn't have acted light that, he'd have kept fighting for real the entire time.

I like this theory a lot. To clarify, what OP is saying is that the original Radiantshards were personal to each Knight; they were somehow created for each Knight, and disappeared with his death. At the Recreance, some or all of the Knights did something to give their Shards away to regular humans, and in the process something changed about the Shards, making them the objects they are today - able to be passed from person to person, but lacking some quality of the originals. I'd like to take things further and postulate that, maybe, this was the great betrayal - the giving of objects of great power to men who couldn't use them properly, and in whose hands they caused great destruction.

It's a good theory. However, people often lose sight of the fact that Surgebinders existed before the creation of the Radiants. The two are not interchangeable. From what we know, Surgebinders have existed on Roshar as long as humanity has, whereas the Radiants were founded by Nohadon. Circumstantially, it seems like during the Silver Kingdoms epoch, the Radiants were the only Surgebinders around, and that after the Recreance, there were no more Surgebinders at all, until now. But we know for 100% that Surgebinding predates the Orders, and there's something more than just the Nahel bond that's required for a person to become a Radiant.

I don't think she's uninterested, I think she's actively rejecting marriage, at least for herself. It's pretty clear in the way she brings up her plan to marry Shallan off to Adolin. Shallan remarks that it's the first time she sees Jasnah unsure of herself, almost as if she's bracing for Shallan to be deeply offended, despite it being a great idea (from a practical aspect, and in the context of Vorin culture). I think Sanderson is writing Jasnah as a person born in the wrong place at the wrong time. A free thinker in a society of strict conformism. And for what it's worth, her thoughts on marriage aren't unique to a woman with some dark secret in her past. IRL, feminists have often pointed out that marriage was historically an institution that objectified and commoditized women, often in a very explicit way, and many campaigned quite strongly against it. And they definitely had a point. Shallan, on the other hand, is still very much a product of her culture, and sees nothing wrong with an arranged marriage, provided that the guy is a good catch. Sanderson's juxtaposing their very different worldviews to great effect here, much the same way he juxtaposed their religious beliefs in Way of Kings. On a side note, did anyone else get a very strong sense that the Jasnah of the full prologue was a completely different character than the Jasnah of the snippet released earlier? The first version seemed like the present-day Jasnah: confident, in control of herself and her surroundings, always 5 steps ahead of everyone else with at least 2 contingency plans for any situation. The Jasnah of the full prologue, on the other hand, is much less self-assured, rolling with events as they happen. We see the strong person she can be, but we know she's not there yet. It was almost like reading the childish, bratty Moiraine sections of New Spring and comparing her to the poised Aes Sedai of The Eye of the World.

Did anyone else read the Jasnah prologue as Darkness manifesting out of the shadows about to go after her, and in response, she instinctively drew in stormlight and went to Shadesmar? I can't find a link, but I seem to remember that in the Ym interlude, Darkness also manifests out of the shadows. This could make sense - Darkness goes after surgebinders, which she is at this point, even if she doesn't realize it yet. And she is conspiring with assassins, which I'm sure is against the law, even in Alethkar. The reason this would be a big deal is that the two candidates for Darkness are the Heralds Nalan and Kalak, and of the two, Kalak is the one with the Transportation surge, which we know works with Shadesmar and shadows.

Given the text of Way of Kings, I don't see how there can be any possible doubt that Szeth is NOT actually bound in any way, other than his own will and crazyness. He basically tells us this himself. He also freely acknowledges that he personally bears the responsibility for everything he does; it's actually part of his punishment. That's exactly what makes him such an interesting character. If he were just some dude magically compelled to do what he does, it wouldn't be an interesting story.

If you liked the first three in increasing order, you'll LOVE the next three. The focus of the story rapidly expands, and each of the next three end with progressively bigger resolutions/cliffhangers. Rand's and Perrin's characters are very well developed in Shadow Rising, and the Mat scenes of Fires of Heaven are some of the best writing I've ever read. Lord of Chaos, as a whole, is probably the best book of the entire series, and will blow you away. After that, 7 through 10 are basically one big book, and honestly, it's very subplot driven - a bunch of side characters arcs are advanced but nothing monumental happens. Some stuff goes down at the end of book 10 that ought to be important....but 11 feels like more of the same. 12 is where Brandon steps in, and he really steps up - 12 and 13 were awesome. The final book, Memory of Light, is controversial....for me personally, it was a big let-down, and I attribute that to the fact that Brandon was forced to end the series in a rushed manner. (I know, calling a 14 book epic "rushed" is a little strange, but it felt that way). I also believe, strongly, that had Robert Jordan lived to finish the series, it would have ended differently - I just can't believe that he would have sat in front of his computer with the final manuscript and been happy with it, regardless of what his notes said. Alas, he didn't have the opportunity to change his mind, and Brandon wasn't in a position to make radical changes to the plotline, so....it is what it is. If I were you, I would definitely keep reading at least through the next several books; you've invested a lot of time already, and you're right on the cusp of the best part of the series!

I've had the same thoughts myself about the place of the 10 orders and their relationships with one another. I imagine it must be a bit like the 7 Ajahs of the White Tower, though I hope none of the orders got to the point of a Red/Blue brawl. I do wonder whether each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with any particular order and vice versa. I'm personally not convinced that Darkness is Nalan, though I do believe he's either Nalan or Kalak. His description of the Edgedancers is pretty informative, I think. He calls them "a glorious order" and goes on about all the cool things they could do on the battlefield. He then says it's "a pity" that they devoted themselves to what he perceived as small causes and ignored the big picture. This doesn't sound like someone who dislikes or distains the Edgedancers, but he clearly has philosophical differences with their Ideals. You can see how both Nalan's and Kalak's Ideals would confict with Vev's. Edgedancers are all about not forgetting the "little details", i.e. the unimportant people, the collateral damage, etc. Confident and Resolute, on the other hand, are both similar in that they will stick with a grand plan in the face of negative outcomes if they believe it ultimately to be for the greater good.

First, there is already a surge that allows disguises - Lightweaving, shared by orders 5 and 6. Secondly, there seems to be a consensus that order 10 is the Bondsmiths, which leaves the mystery surge to orders 8 and 9. Thirdly, Ishar is likely the drunk guy at the feast that says "have you seen me?"

Yeah, I noticed this as well on the Surgebinding chart. It's definitely there. Also, definitely NOT there in the Herald chapter icons. This could be because Brandon decided it would be too obvious a giveaway. In the Ym interlude, Darkness is described as appearing in the shadows, and Ym is uncertain how he got there. Given how Jasnah's shadow acting weird is a first sign of her spren type, shadows could easily have something to do with physical access to Shadesmar (I mean, even the name matches...). However, Darkness' behavior is so spot-on for a corrupted Nalan, that's it's hard to argue with. I guess we'll find out eventually.

I'm pretty sure WoK did say the king loaned out his personal Blade for a fee. Sick bastard :-) Also, when there are less than a hundred known Blades in the world, keeping a few just lying around in an armory is a ridiculous thing to do. They'd instantly be stolen, either by the guards guarding them, or other Shardbearers. The only way to keep one safe is in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, or in complete secrecy.

I think the 10 or 30 quote has to do with how people access the magic, to be honest. 10 different surges/combination of surges, but a different way to access each of them for each Shard.

Gotta admit, I didn't pay attention to Wit's eye color being brown, just to Hoid's being blue at the end. Also don't recall if it's ever mentioned in other Cosmere books. You guys have a good point though, that he can easily disguise his eye color. I'm sure that the origin of the lighteyes/darkeyes split is a leftover from the days when light colored eyes signified surgebinding, or at least, surgebinder parents. This may have predated even the Radiants. And I'm sure that when a surgebinder levels up to his or her final level, their eyes change color to their corresponding order. This, in fact, is one of the pieces of evidence that I use to support the Szeth-has-Jezrien's-Honorblade theory. Kaladin's eyes initially become a lighter version of his original color. Even those lighteyes that are that way because they pick up a Blade seem to get a permanent change of color, but their eyes are never described as glowing, whether their Blade is summoned or not. And they certainly don't change, the way Szeth's do.

Yeah, the idea that Honor = up is just a wild guess at this point. And you're right, we have no references in-book to any sort of heaven, so the theory is very speculative at best. As for the Tranquiline Halls - I think there's a theme developing regarding how natural phenomena that aren't understood become religious phenomena over time. We know that Roshar is one planet in a solar system of several, and that Odium is currently based on one of those others. In Vorin mythology, humanity once lived in the Tranquiline Halls, but was forced out of them by the voidbringers, who then followed through and tried to kill them. We know humans are, biologically/ecologically, completely alien to Roshar, but that there is a pocket (Shinovar) of traditional "earth-like" vegetation, animals, etc. My theory is that humans were forced onto Roshar by Odium, perhaps driven off of Braize, perhaps from somewhere else. The legend of the Tranquiline Halls, then, is what remains of their collective memory of originating on another planet, and is the only way they have of currently understanding that concept. At some point, I'm sure we will find out what makes Shinovar special. But if it has something do with with it being a location where humans "landed" on Roshar, that could conceivably be described as "closest to Honor". It would also give Nohadon quite a distance to walk, if Abamabar was anywhere in Alethela.

Thoughts: 1. When Shallan explains her reasoning for why she thinks Urithiru may be in Natanatan, she makes valid arguments, and Jasnah acknowledges that. She then proceeds to say, very directly, "Urithiru is not in Natanatan". Why would Jasnah, a very rational and scientific person, categorically reject what she herself acknowledges is a sound hypothesis? The only reason would be if she herself had already investigated it and disproved it. How.....I don't know. But remember, Jasnah has been researching this stuff for years, and almost certainly has access to very fast and secret means of transportation. So I'm gonna go ahead and trust her on this one. 2. Shattered Plains - we know they contain the ruins of a city, but it doesn't have to be one that's currently known. After dozens of desolations, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there are ruins of destroyed cities lying around. Also, what if it's not a human city at all, but a Parshendi city? From Kaladin's vision, we can infer that something huge exploded or struck the earth in that location, but jumping from that to "Urithiru fell out of the sky" is a bit much. 3. Nohadon walking to Urithiru vs. Urithiru being inaccessible by foot - this one's a mystery at this point, but I'd like to point out that the two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Let's say Urithiru was up on a cloud, and you had to climb a magic beanstalk to get up to it. That would make it inaccessible by foot. But you could still walk from Abamabar to wherever the magic beanstalk was, then climb up, and still reasonably describe yourself as having walked to Urithiru. The point is that Nohadon walked hundreds of miles across Roshar, interacting with the common folk on the way, whereas a person of his station would be expected to have travelled by Oathgate. 4. "Placed Westward..." - Well, for whatever reason, the author of that statement seemed to this that it was "obvious" that Urithiru could not be placed in Alethela. Now, we don't know what exactly that means, but I'd like to offer the most mundane possibility - that the home of the Knights Radiant, a city build to hold "ten thrones" and be "international" doesn't belong inside the borders of one of the ten nations, especially the one that's most devoted to the martial arts already. Note though, that basically everything in Roshar is westward of Alethela. The one exception, conveniently enough, is Natanatan (see #1). 5. "...in the place closest to Honor." - What's closest to Honor? Remember, these people see Honor as God, in the capital G sense. And virtually every religion associates the divine with the heavens, i.e. the sky. At the same time, Urithiru is spoken of as having a "place" and a direction (westward); that doesn't fit with a flying city, or one that's in Shadesmar, or other outlandish theories. So, what place is closest to Honor, west of Alethela, inaccessible by foot but can plausibly be walked to? How about the Horneater Peaks? They're the tallest mountain range on Roshar, thus being "closest to Honor", they can be described as both inaccessible by foot and yet on the landmass to be walked to. On my next re-read, I'll have to pay more attention to what Rock says about his home.

Yeah, I noticed that on my first read-through and thought it was hilarious. I thought Brandon did it on purpose though - the fact that it's accidental definitely adds another layer to the joke!

That actually makes sense; it means that the Skybreakers will be able to fly like the Windrunners. Makes sense for an order with the word Sky in their name.

I'm pretty sure your assumption is incorrect. The Heralds kept coming back for every desolation to warn mankind to prepare and to lead them. At some point, in the aftermath of a desolation, Nohadon did some thinking and some writing (and likely some Dawnsharding) and founded the 10 orders. This made humanity strong enough, and gave them enough institutional memory, to withstand the desolations better than before. At some point thereafter, the Heralds called it quits, saying that the Radiants should be enough. For some reason that is currently unknown to us, but likely related to the Heralds quitting, that desolation was also the last one, up until the present time.

This chart shows Pressure to be surge 10/1, and Gravity to be 1/2. This is the opposite of what a previous version had. I feel like Pressure makes more sense to be shared with the Skybreakers than Gravity does.

Interesting. Ever since finding out that "Bondsmiths" were an order and "surface tension" was a surge, I had assumed they went together, since the name fits so well. So if ST is 9/10, I would strongly assume Bondsmiths were order 10 as well. That leaves order 8, with Transportation and a mystery surge.

I think the term Investiture can be used to refer to multiple related but distinct phenomena. For instance, we've seen it refer to pure spiritual energy, such as stormlight or stored feruchemical/allomantic attributes. We've also seen it refer to the process of using the power of creation (in Alloy of Law ars arcanum, we are told that allomantic metal burning doesn't fuel allomancy directly, but rather "sets up an Investiture and keeps it running"). We've also seen the verb "to Invest" used to mean "to create magic effects". So, my reading of it is that Investiture is a general term referring to extra spiritual energy that has been added to an object or person. I REALLY like OP's idea that the Radiant Oaths, as a concept, are Invested. It would explain why the Words themselves are important, and why there is a difference between pre-Nohadon surgebinders and Radiants.

Does anyone else see strong resemblance between the Aimians and kandra?

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures. "Broken soul" is a very metaphorical phrase, and in this context I read it as saying that a person who has endured some psychological hardship and has an inner drive to change something about themselves, tends to attract spren, which in turn gives them surgebinding. That's actually a pretty accurate and insightful description. If you look at real-world history, the individuals who produced great innovations or were leaders generally didn't have very happy childhoods. More interesting, to me, is the part about widening fissures. I've stated before, and will state again, that I believe there's something about surgebinding that allows its practitioners to be corrupted by Odium, or in some other way lead to Desolations. There's lots of evidence for this, starting with Nohadon's "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren", the Radiants abandoning their Shards, to Eshonai's statement about the Parshendi "lost gods", to a very direct quote from a character in the Steelhunt interlude that is widely believed to be in a position to know.

Didn't people show Brandon the Radiant Chart with the theorized order and surge names on it, and he confirmed it as correct? That chart has Bondsmiths as #8, and "surface tension" as 8/9 (As an aside, I'm going to call it the "Shape" surge until we find out its real name).

In almost all fantasy books, the authors "fudge" the rules of their own magic systems in order to make certain scenes "easier" to write, or to maintain the "feel" they are going for. For instance, when people teleport, their stuff goes with them, because authors don't want their characters running around naked all the time. When a wizard shapechanges into a dragon, his robe and staff disappear (because dragons don't wear robes), but when he turns the hero into a frog, his clothes might stay, and he might be naked when he gets rescued from the spell by the princess (because awkward romance scene). Brandon doesn't do that, or at least, if he wants a certain effect from his magic, he thinks it out in advance and builds it into his magic system. The Cosmere's three Realms, in particular the Cognitive, is a huge part of that. And really, the concept of the Cognitive realm is inspired by some real-world ancient philosophy, namely Plato's forms (i.e. there exists an ideal Chair, and all real-world chairs are a reflection/representation of this single Chair). So, I do agree that in the Cosmere, a lot of magic does treat a person's clothes/equipment as a part of them. Note, however, that different applications of magic might differ on this, depending on what they do. The Basic Lashing, for instance, apparently includes clothes, while Regrowth doesn't (people's torn shirts don't get mended). As for Jasnah's soulcasting - well, there's a couple possible solutions. The first is that, quite simply, she meant to soulcast the weapons/clothes of the first two thugs, and didn't bother with the clothes of the last two. The second is that she may have run out of stormlight in her distance-casting, and therefore the clothes weren't included. The third is some convoluted reason why soulcasting at a distance doesn't include clothes but soulcasting by touch does. The fourth is that Brandon thought that people turning into smoke and leaving empty clothes dropping to the ground was a cool image, and just fudged things. Personally, I vote for 1 or 2, though I'm not ruling out 4.