11thorderknight

So, that's basically Word of Brandon confirmation of what I was thinking - there ARE full feruchemists out there, they're probably just laying low.

So, if it is the mixing in of allomantic genes that fractures feruchemy, that implies even more that there would be Keepers among the purebred Terris population. I kind of like that theory - we have a people that's accustomed to hiding and working to preserve the Keeper's powers in their bloodlines. Now, they're all of a sudden free from oppression. Undoubtedly, a large number fade into the general population, interbreed, and produce ferrings and twinborn. But, a small group cling to the old ways, continue to live in secrecy, and produce/train a new generation of Keepers, who continue to hide their abilities. And the Ars Arcanum implies that the Terris are still exploring the abilities granted by the new metals. I like it.

If you read closely through WoK, there are several places that imply that waves/sound is magically important. When we see Jasnah soulcast the boulder, Shallan imagines that she can hear a "single, perfect note" just as it transforms. Later, she finds some books that mention that humming can facilitate soulcasting using fabrials. Also - anyone notice how a basic soulcaster, that can do one thing only, has a single gemstone (the one we see the Ghostblood use to make the wall turn into smoke), while the greater ones have three gemstones that can be swapped out? And remember how Kabsal tells Shallan that to use a soulcaster, you just touch what you want to change and tap the gemstone? Anyone else think this sounds (no pun intended) like a musical instrument? For a single note (essence) you tap a single key/gemstone. For a more complex object consisting of multiple essences you tap a combination of notes, thereby making a chord. Of note, most chords in music are made from three notes. I just had to look all this stuff up on wikipedia since I have the musical knowledge and skill of a tugboat, but I'm sure someone with more knowledge will take up the thread.

I got the implication in Alloy of Law that Harmony, at the time of the Founding, changed the bloodlines of all the existing allomancers to make it such that from that point on, there would be no more Mistborn, only Mistings. Even though it's not stated directly, it seems pretty clear, because although many Mistborn would have died during the years of WoA/HoA, some would have surely survived if they bothered to lay low. I mean, they have a pretty strong survival advantage. And even if they didn't, we know that in the Final Empire, even though allomancy in general was getting weaker in the population, Mistborn would still be born, often to parents that weren't even allomancers themselves, as long as they were nobility. I mean, look at Vin herself. Also, we know that many of the Mistings in AoL were descended from Spook, so he presumably had several kids, and he was made into an original Mistborn by Harmony. For perspective, the ten original Mistborn made by Rashek provided the heritage for all the allomancers for a thousand years. How is it that not a single one of Spook's descendants is a full Mistborn? It seems pretty clear to me that Harmony tampered with things to make Mistborn go away. So - that brings me to the Keepers. We know that, even though many/most were killed by the Inquisitors, some must have survived, and in any case, once again we know from Rashek's time that the trait will pop up in Terris children even if their parents don't have it themselves. We also know that Harmony did something here, as well, since in the Final Empire Ferrings did not exist; you were either a full Keeper, or nothing. But did Harmony eliminate the potential for Keepers during the Founding the way he did for Mistborn, or is it simply that they are rare and keep to themselves? If so, is it the interbreeding with allomantic bloodlines that makes people into Ferrings rather than Keepers? Might it be possible to be a Keeper and a Misting at the same time? (We know Wax doesn't think so, but he could be wrong). PS - for purposes of this thread, I'm defining "Keeper" as a feruchemist with access to all 16 of the metals, rather than a Ferring who only has access to one; analogous to Mistborn and Misting.

Not sure what "reverse compounding" would be, but my take on it is this - you vastly increase your Feruchemy by fueling it with Allomancy (via compounding). How do you vastly increase your Allomancy, then? Simple - you fuel it with Feruchemy. But what metalmind lets you do that, you ask? Nicrosil, the one that stores Investiture. You simply burn a metal and store the "magic" in a Nicrosilmind, rather than using it at the time. Then, when you want to Soothe the entire city of Luthadel, you tap that Nicrosilmind and put out a ginormous Soothing.

Can someone refresh my memory: was there ever a Brandon quote that there are ten abilities shared by ten orders, or ten Surges? It sounds like splitting hairs, but somewhere I read Brandon saying that to get an order you combine two small symbols and one large symbol. Basically, what I'm getting at is whether two adjacent orders that share a Surge will be able to do the exact same thing with that Surge, or whether they'll each use that Surge in a slightly different way. In other words, is order 10 going to be able to fly and walk on walls the way Kaladin/Szeth can, since they share Gravity, and order 2 be able to bind objects together using Pressure? Or is each one going to do something unique with those Surges?

Also - There's a fair bit of circumstantial evidence for Shallan being order 6, but the evidence for Jasnah being order 5 isn't quite as strong. And the more I've been thinking about Regrowth, the more it seemed odd for a Surge with the word growth in it to NOT be associated with the order whose essence is plant life. So - what if Jasnah was in order 7? She would still share Change/Soulcasting with Shallan, it would make much more sense for her to not have access to Regrowth, and her divine attributes would be Wise/Careful. In general, I think we have to be careful to not put too much stock in the attributes, because almost any good person will exhibit all of those qualities to some degree. That being said, Jasnah can definitely be described as wise, and she's EXTREMELY careful, having hidden her Soulcasting ability for years, as well as evading assassins. Knowing what she did with Kabsal's bread and jam, I wouldn't be surprised if she's been Soulcasting ALL her food and drink for years. And the way she handled the robbers - yes, she took matters into her own hands and all confrontation could potentially be dangerous - but she set up the situation such that she led them into a trap where she knew she'd be able to take them. That definitely shows her being careful in a dangerous situation. And at the same time, she used the episode to teach Shallan, not only about philosophy, but about Shallan's limitations of thought and prejudices. Seems pretty wise to me.

That's sort of my point - the Memory thing is just how she thinks of her ability with drawing; a fantastic, but mundane, talent. Maybe its how her personality, and affinity for the visual arts, interprets her not-yet-realized surgebinding ability. But the way its described seems to foreshadow that, if she were to pick up a spren and put some Stormlight into it, she's be able to apply it in a supernatural way.

The reason I feel pretty strongly that the Stoneward's gizmo was a fabrial, and not just "a fancy purse for gems", is because it's very strongly emphasized in that same vision that the Knight's Plate has inherent Stormlight in it; the glyphs glow with the color of the Knight's order, and they can make parts of it appear/disappear at will, like with Blades. Also, the Windrunner isn't carrying a sapphire "purse" to do his thing. The difference with Jasnah is, she deliberately pretends to use her fake fabrial, to deflect from the fact that she doesn't need it. Her performance with the boulder, therefore, should be taken as an example of how someone who DOES require a fabrial would do it, since her act has had everyone fooled for years. EDIT: Also, another wild guess that just came to me: I've posted previously that I don't think Order 9 has inherent Regrowth, and therefore it's very unlikely for it to be Order 10 (see my previous post). It's also very unlikely that Jasnah, who is most likely Order 5, has it. That eliminates the Essences of Sinew, Talus (bone), and Pulp from having Regrowth. Who's left then? We know it's not going to be Order 1 (Kaladin/Szeth), and somehow I don't see Orders 2, 3 or 4 (Vapor, Heat, Light). Metal (order 8) also doesn't fit. And that leaves us with Order 6 (blood). But wait....that's Shallan! And here's where it gets interesting. Apart from the potentially very strong connection between Blood and Regrowth, we have some hints about Shallan's Memories. What does that have to do with healing, you ask? Well - her description of using Memory is "When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page." Most people have speculated on the use of the word "cultivate" in this sentence, and I agree, it's very striking. But I think "grew" deserves some speculation as well. Maybe this is foreshadowing - when Shallan learns to use her abilities, she'll be able to cultivate and grow parts of people in the flesh, not just on paper!

My take on Regrowth, as we see it in Dalinar's vision: 1. In this scene, it's clearly a fabrial. The Radiant, who we know at this point is capable of holding stormlight either in herself or in her Plate, takes a big heavy piece of jewelry into combat with her, that just happens to use the two gemstones that correspond to Flesh and Bone? And then mentions that she should "save" Regrowth for those who might need it? No. She's clearly not doing this spontaneously through her Radiant abilities, but rather using the fabrial. I don't even see how this can be up for discussion. 2. I don't think the topaz and heliodor are a coincidence. Therefore, the color of Stormlight is important not only for Soulcasting, but for Regrowth as well, and I'll bet for some other abilities that we haven't yet seen. Why? We have no idea. My guess is that it may be related to needing to enter Shadesmar to use the ability, but that's just a wild guess. 3. The original fabrials were all based on inherent Radiant abilities. Therefore, there is an order that could use Regrowth spontaneously. Which one would that be? You could make an argument for Order 10, associated with Sinew, but that would be problematic, because we already know that Order 10 shares Gravity with Order 1. That means that whatever its other Surge is, it has to be shared with Order 9, and if that Surge involves healing, then the Stoneward in the vision SHOULD have had spontaneous healing ability, and since she didn't (see point #1)....I DON'T think Order 10 has Regrowth. Also, assuming that Jasnah is in Order 5 (learned/giving, and adjacent with Shallan's Order 6), I DON'T think Order 5 has healing either. Otherwise, why would Jasnah have needed to "hack" the system and repeatedly Soulcast Shallan's blood to clear the poison, instead of simply healing her? We know Jasnah's become quite proficient with Soulcasting, so she's been doing it for some time - why wouldn't she have access to her other Surge? Discuss.

I've noticed this contradiction as well. Clearly, spheres do lose stormlight eventually, since Kaladin says so, and since there's socially developed mechanisms for recharging them. However, broams seem to be much bigger than chips, and therefore, would probably hold a charge for months. Larger gems like what Jasnah uses for Soulcasting would hold a charge almost indefinitely.

Thank you for clearing that up with Brandon's quotes, very helpful. His comments on the large glyphs (orders/essences) and small glyphs (surges) makes me wonder though, whether the magic is more complicated than each order having two abilities and sharing each with one adjacent order. As an example, Kaladin uses Pressure and Gravity, and we know that the 10th order will therefore also use one of these (I'm betting on Gravity, since Pressure seems to fit so much more with Vapor, order #2). However, does that mean that order 10 will be able to use the Basic Lashing the same way Kaladin does, and that order 2 will use the Full Lashing? My guess is no - they will use Gravity and Pressure respectively, but what they can do with them will be different. This leads to a very important question: is Soulcasting going to be different for Jasnah and Shallan? Or is it going to simply be a matter of each having one other, distinct ability?

So, everyone seems to pretty much accept that Soulcasting is a form of Surgebinding, one of the ten abilities of the ten orders, shared by two of them. This is definitely supported by Jasnah's assertion that two of the ten orders had "inherent" Soulcasting abilities. However, there's a couple of points in the book where it's implied that Soulcasting is something different, or at least, is somehow special. For instance, in Dalinar's vision with Nohadon, the latter mentions Surgebinders and Soulcasters as two distinct types of people. If Soulcasting is just one form of Surgebinding, why the special emphasis? Two more points. The first is the fact that Soulcasting relies on different colors of Stormlight to produce different things. With Kaladin and Szeth, any Stormlight they inhale gives them the exact same abilities. Why the difference? Also, inhaling Stormlight gives Szeth and Kaladin a physical boost, which seems entirely unrelated to the Surges of Pressure and Gravity that their order is based on. Mixing metaphors a bit, it's like there's an "internal" use of stormlight that acts sort of like burning pewter does for allomancers, and an "external" use that differs based on a Knights order. I'm not sure how else one can possibly explain the Szeth/Kaladin scenes. However, we get no hint at all of Shallan/Jasnah having any "internal" use of Stormlight. Finally, there's the name itself - Soulcasting. What exactly does this mean? We know that Kaladin's order was called the Windrunners, and it's a pretty obvious name. However, note that the name applies to the order, not to what they do. Why does Soulcasting get it's own capitalized name? And what exactly does this name have to do with changing things? Just some thoughts. I'll admit that most evidence seems to point to it as simply one of the Surges, but still....the issues I brought up do seem a bit inconsistent.

I don't remember where exactly the reference was, but didn't Dalinar mention in the book that forgetting SHHHH was the boon, not the curse? Also, the guy in the interlude where Shalash is going around breaking statues explains that the Nightwatcher doesn't grant specific requests: you go to her and ask for a boon, she gives you what she thinks you deserve, along with a corresponding curse. It's implied that the more selfless/noble the request, the less burdensome the curse is.

Thoughts on Hoid's letter and the 17th sharders: 1. Hoid is on Roshar. He is writing a letter. As far as we know, there is no interplanetary postal service. Ergo, the PBA is also on Roshar. 2. PBA knows the original Shardholders as people, pre-ascension. Ergo, PBA is OLD. 3. PBA has the capacity to significantly affect the outcome of the coming war. Ergo, PBA is powerful. 4. There were three shards on Roshar to start, but Odium splintered Honor. He also took a trip to another planet to splinter two other shards. However, as best we know, he did not touch Cultivation, who is on his home planet. 5. Could Hoid be addressing Cultivation?

Umm.....I'm pretty sure that whatever mysteries the Shin are hiding, knowledge of the voidbringers is not among them. Remember Szeth's POV in the intro regarding the voidbringers: "But then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did." He was punished by the Stone Shamans or other leaders of his people....so, hard to believe that they know much about the voidbringers if they think they don't exist.

I stand corrected regarding the Stonewards. Three further points though... 1) I still don't think the existence of Stone Shamans and Herald #9 being the only one still bound to the Oathpact is an coincidence. I accept that the Shamans are probably not Radiants in the old sense of the term, but there's got to be some connection. They're clearly not just religious figures in the mundane sense of the word; how can you explain Szeth's casual thoughts about them "retrieving" his Blade from whoever took it after he died? The Shamans as an organization clearly must have some kind of abilities. 2) "Unique effect of his particular weapon". EXACTLY!! It's not just an effect of darkeyes becoming lighteyes, which will apparently happen with any commoner acquiring a traditional Blade (at least, that's the common knowledge according to Kaladin, an the situation must have happened enough times in history for that to be confirmed). Szeth's eyes are already green, and the change is only when he's using his abilities and/or the Blade. Note also that the prologue to the entire series describes the Honorblades as "unique". I can only imagine how much thought Brandon must have put into every word of that prologue, and again, I'd be very surprised if that use of the same word was a coincidence. 3) Regarding the three different types of Blades; we've obviously seen common Shardblades (#1) and the Honorblades in the prologue (#2). We know Szeth's Blade is not the same as #1. Therefore, people are assuming that it must be #3. However, I've got another candidate for #3 - the Shardblades we see the Radiants use in Dalinar's visions. In the vision at Feverstone Keep, he notices that there's a subtle light/glow that fades from them once they're abandoned. We know Syl doesn't like common Shardblades (#1) but it wouldn't really make sense for all Honorspren to strongly dislike the Blades of the original Knights. Plus, we know something changed about the Plate they abandoned so that it now works differently; why should the Blades have stayed the same? A strong possibility is that the original Blades (#3) became common Blades (#1) at the Recreance. We might not know exactly what the difference is, but I"m pretty sure there is one.

So, here goes nothing... Szeth's Shardblade is described as "smaller than most" and at the same time as a "monstrosity of a Shardblade" by Taravangian. We know that Szeth's eyes turn bright blue when he summons his blade, "a peculiar effect of the blade he carried". We know his Surgebinding does not come from him becoming a Knight Radiant the way Kaladin is. My theory: Szeth's Blade is not just any Shardblade, it's the Honorblade once carried by Jezrien. Each of the Honorblades will bestow upon their owner the full powers of a Radiant of the appropriate order. Further baseless speculation: The Stone Shamans are the descendants of the order of Stonewards, and are the only Radiants who did not abandon their Oaths, since their Herald did not forsake them. They currently possess all 9 abandoned Honorblades, and for whatever reason, saw fit to punish Szeth by making him Truthless. Once he dies, they will go retrieve the Blade. Please discuss.

The really interesting question (to me anyway) is this: lets say a modern day feruchemist is about to be hit by a car. He taps all the weight stored in his ironmind to momentarily become exponentially heavier. What happens? In theory, the car should not be able to move him, since at the moment of impact, he's many times the car's weight. That means the car has to stop, which means the feruchemist's body just exerted a massive reactive force on the car. What happens to the force imparted to the feruchemist? Does he turn into a really heavy human pancake? Or is he ok because his individual molecules are each too heavy to move, and therefore he can withstand the force of impact?

Very cool that Brandon said that! My personal take on Elantris/Sel is as follows: 1) For whatever reason, Devotion's splintering caused different geographical areas of Sel to have slightly different ways of accessing power, but all of these were "form-based" (to use the AoL Ars Arcanum terminology). Note that it's not just Elantrian magic, but also Forgery, and the Bloodsealer's magic, and to some extent, the Dakhor monks' bone-runes. 2) In MaiPon (Shai's homeland) anyone can learn to use Forgery, as long as they have the patience and dedication (or Devotion :-) ). The magic, however, while very versatile, is relatively weak. It takes a very large amount of time, skill and effort to produce any effect, and there are limits on how "magical" the effects can be. By contrast, in Arelon, the average person has no access to magic. However, those taken by the Shaod have much more access than a MaiPon Forger; their effects still take skill to produce, but are much faster, don't take any physical effort (no seals to painstakingly carve, just wave your finger in the air!) and can produce obviously "magical" effects that Forging is not capable of. 3) At some point, the ancient Elantrians figured out how to use the city-Aon Rao to enhance themselves. This makes them even more powerful near the city. 4) The pool where Elantrians can go and kill themselves when they get bored - clearly, it's a Shardpool, like the Well of Ascension. Only this time, entering it doesn't give you the Shard's power, it takes your power and joins it to the Shardpool. Is this a way for Devotion to regather itself? 5) Does Brandon's comment imply that the Shaod only began after Devotion was splintered? If so, it greatly bolsters my theory that Elantrians each receive one of these splinters when they transform. 6) If the splintering was prior to the founding of the City of Elantris, it must have been a very long time ago, since the origins of the city are lost in antiquity. This begs the question - how recent is Hoid's letter in Way of Kings? It implies that the reader might not be aware of events on Sel, as if they were in the recent past. Is it possible that time passes at different rates on different Shardworlds?????

Regarding the monetary theory of spheres: 1) Important point - the currency is spheres, not just tiny gems. It's probably somewhat involved to coat tiny gems in just the right amount of glass. Possibly, given Roshar's tech level, it's something that's only done using Soulcasting. Therefore, the supply of gemhearts doesn't matter, it's only the supply of actual spheres in circulation that matters. 2) The tiny size of the smaller denominations implies that only "waste" gems are used for chips and marks, i.e. once a focus stone breaks enough times that it no longer fits into any soulcasters and isn't good enough for jewelry, it gets used in currency production. 3) The connection of value to soulcasting use can't be direct, because, as I pointed out, the Stormlight in currency is not available to modern soulcasters for use - the spheres can't be mounted into a soulcaster fabrial, and therefore can't be used for soulcasting. So it must be the connection of emeralds to food, for example, that made people decide to value them the most, not a literal use.

Correction: when Jasnah enters Shadesmar, her body doesn't move. We know that there was/is an order of the Knights that had access to instantaneous travel. Maybe they also access Shadesmar, but instead of changing the form of objects around them, they change their location?

So - Stormform??!! Is that what the Parshendi scholar said she discovered at the end of that reading? Obviously, there's much to be discussed regarding what it could be, but it can't be simply related to fighting, since they already know warriorform. My personal guess is that Stormform = ability to use Stormlight, i.e. to become Parshendi Surgebinders. That would make sense; the humans are in the process of discovering the human version of it, i.e. the Knights Radiant. Also, regarding sending Szeth to kill Gavilar: now we know why. The decision was made that same day, after the peace treaty was already signed, apparently in good faith. Something Gavilar told the Parshendi at the feast made them decide he needed to be killed immediately, and it sounds like it had to do with that sphere of voidlight (for lack of another term) that he gave Szeth, and with "summoning the Parshendi gods" (I think that's what Brandon said in the reading). So...maybe at one point, the Parshendi were led by the voidbringers?

As pointed out, the precise, even, and constant ratios between gem types and sizes implies that the Roshar currency is, in fact, somewhat arbitrary, i.e. fiat currency, like the modern dollar. However, that begs the question - how does Soulcasting utility play into the value of gems? 1. I can see why emeralds, which can be used to make food, would be valuable. But then, why are sapphires 2nd most valuable? They make air! 2. The way that Soulcasting fabrials are described, they seem to use stormlight from the large focus stones set in the actual fabrial. In that case, NO spheres should have any utility in Soulcasting! 3. Soulcasters are currently so limited and rare, that regardless of how rare/common various gems are, they should never be the limiting factor in Soulcasting. In Alethkar for instance, only the king has access to Soulcasters, and the other highprinces have to go to him. The Soulcasters are literally priceless, meaning that if you had one, it really wouldn't matter what color gem you needed....it wouldn't be a consideration once you had the Soulcaster itself.

ruby spheres (firemarks) are placed between garnet and sapphire, and are worth 10 diamonds (that's referenced in the books). as for only 9 gems being used in spheres - the exact quote from chapter 8 is "...was forced to use all 9 colors and all three sizes..." there are 9 colors, but several of the gems can be described as having the same color, notably garnet and ruby, but also topaz and heliodor. For that matter, we don't know what color zircon is in WoK, but in real life it can be any of a number of colors that could overlap with the other gems. In the chart in WoK, the Radiant symbol that would correspond to zircon is colored a dark blue. So, until we are specifically told otherwise, I maintain that all ten gems are used in currency.