11thorderknight

I agree with Shardlet on this one. For one thing, the ten surges are described as fundamental forces on Roshar, and the 9 we know of are all either real fundamental physical forces, or very general concepts (i.e. illumination, transformation, growth, etc). Another thing is that all the radiants can already get "internal" effects from stormlight by merely holding it. It seems to basically have the same effect as Allomantic pewter, and possibly Allomantic tin as well (though we don't have any direct proof of that).

Couple of points: 1 - We don't know much about Truthless, but we do know that Szeth is not the only one. Rysn's master tells her that in Shinovar, soldiers are the lowest class of people, and are traded among others by virtue of their stones (oathstones). Therefore, Szeth is not unique in being Truthless. 2 - Szeth is unique, however, in his surgebinding abilities. The Shin farmer in the interlude basically says so. He also has a unique Blade, which has been confirmed to belong to someone who another Herald would address as "my Lord". Not much room for interpretation there. 3 - The soldiers are going up against a 30 foot tall creature made out of solid stone. With hammers. You could argue that they're more of a hindrance to the one or two knights than a help, because ordinary soldiers with ordinary hammers would be less than useless against a thunderclast; they'd get in the knights' way, and need protecting. I doubt that they'd send anyone not capable of using stormlight against a thunderclast.

One hat eating challenge accepted! Though I should clarify - I'm not saying that I think the Final Surge will literally be about manipulating stone. If anything, Surface Tension will already let them do that. I think there will be something with respect to "protecting" stone (from voidspren?) or alternatively, "protecting from stone" (i.e. thunderclasts).

This is definitely a possibility. If so, it basically throws out anything we know about the final surge.

A question I've had for a while is whether Syl's form is determined by her, or by Kaladin. What I mean by that is, is she an Honorspren: subtype Wind, and only binds with people exhibiting the qualities of Windrunners? Or, is she an Honorspren, no subtype, and takes the shape of a windspren for this particular bond because the person she bonded (Kaladin) exhibits the qualities of Windrunners?

I totally read that as non-Radiant surgebinders

Two things - first off, there is WoB that Honor was alive at the Recreance. Secondly.....we now know that both Jasnah and Shallan have a bond with an individual spren. This makes a lot more sense, and is consistent with what we've seen of other orders. Adding this up with what we got from Wyndle, and it sounds like spren can follow people around as a group, or ring, but then ultimately a single one will form the bond.

Actually - how many boring fantasy villains are in love with their non-supermodel, middle-aged wives? That's definitely a new twist on the stereotype. And Brandon's set up Alethi culture to make the conquer-everything mentality pretty "normal"

Oh, I totally agree with you. I just noticed that there was a pattern to the naming, and that it might help us figure out what the Final Surge was. So, since we now know that Bondsmiths are #10, and that they have "surface tension" and pressure, it's almost certain that Stonewards are named for the Final Surge. The mystery isn't so much in the "ward" part of the name, as in what it has to do with stone.

Dude have you ever watched a hockey game?! That's what I'd imagine the Edgedancers and Dustbringers to be like on the battlefield....basically skating around everyone and laying about with their hockeystick/shardblade.

I also thought it was interesting that Syl basically confirmed that predicting the future was a feature of Odium/voidbinding. We know the ardents believe this, but since their data is so mesed up I didn't trust it at all. However, if it's true....well, that is interesting.

Good catch!

I have to disagree with your analysis of Order names. I will admit that the Skybreakers seem to incorporate elements of both Gravity (flight) and Division, and Windrunners can be tied to both Gravity and Pressure, though I'd argue that they're named their ability to fly, which uses only the Gravity surge from what we know. However, every other order name seems to relate to one of the order's surges much more strongly than to the other. Dustbringers, to use your example, clearly reference Division. But I'm not sure how you can possibly stretch that word to cover Friction. And good luck tying Edgedancer and Growth, or Lightweaver and Transformation, or Elsecaller and Transportation. I'll eat my hat that Palah's order will be unambiguously named after Growth and have nothing to do with Illumination. I had a much stronger argument back when I thought Gravity was 10/1 and Pressure was 1/2. At that point, there was a definite pattern that orders were named after their counterclockwise surge. Now....well, the pattern is still there, just a bit fuzzy for the Windrunners and Skybreakers. But you can't say there's not a pattern there.

Really? When did that get announced? I know there's nothing in the text to say whether Gravity or Pressure is 10/1 or 1/2, but the Chart that was supposedly shown to Brandon has Pressure being shared with the Skybreakers. Did something change?

I think the WoB is that all Radiants had access to Plate and Blade but not all of them used them. The Radiants individually, not as the Orders. I think it's an important distinction. I highly doubt that entire orders stayed off the battlefield.

Well, Dalinar just gave away his Plate to Renarin, but alas, has no Blade to give. Where could we find a spare Shardblade?

Thank you! One more thought: With all the orders we've seen so far, the name of the Order seems to be closely related to one of their surges, but not to the other. And so far, in every case, it's been related to the counter-clockwise surge in the chart. For instance, Windrunners are named for Gravity, Skybreakers for Pressure, Dustbringers for Division, Edgedancers for Frictions, Order 5 will likely be named for Growth, Lightweavers for Illumination, Elsecallers for Transformation, Order 8 likely will be named for Transportation, etc. If the pattern holds, that means that knowing the names of the Stonewards and the Bondsmiths tells us about the order of their surges. So - we know from Teft that the Radiants could "make stones melt by looking at them". Jasnah also mentions "women who danced in the sky and men who could break stones with a touch". Both refer to stone, but that could be a generic reference to something durable. Both could also be accomplished by Division (we have Kalak PoV that Dustbringers could make stones smolder). However, making stone (or other things) melt could also be a use of surface tension. If you take away an objects surface tension/shape/whatever, it would basically turn liquid. That sounds like surge that would give rise to the name Bondsmiths. In which case, the Stonewards are named for the Final Surge. Well, what does the name tell us? Well, we know it will somehow relate to Stone, but it doesn't have to be super-literal; a lot of the order names have a bit of a leap to the first part of the name (i.e. Edgedancers, Windrunners, Elsecallers). But the second part....."wards". To "ward" something means to guard it, to keep it secure, to watch it. Therefore, Stonewards could mean either "those who guard stone" or "those who use stone to guard". Now, keep in mind that there's other references out there to stone. In Shinovar, stone is holy and not to be walked upon or touched/altered, and there are Stone Shamans. And the Desolations all seem to involve thunderclasts, which are basically evil/corrupt spren that take over a large block of stone and animate it into a giant monster. Therefore, in Roshar, stone is something which could perhaps use some guarding. Add to that the fact that, if my guess on the surge's place in the chart is correct, it ought to grant access to Shadesmar. So....my final guess is that the Final Surge grants some sort of Cognitive Awareness and maybe communication.

There's so much we don't know. I read Harkaylain as being someone else that talked about Desolations a while back, and she was remembering. It could also be her spren though. Similarly, we see Wyndle and Syl warn their bonded about things; maybe that's how she would "hear" Dalinar shout. One other thought just occured to me: At the end of Way of Kings, when Taln shows up, we see his speak Alethi with no accent. So far, we've all assumed this is an attribute of the Heralds, which would make sense. It's probably that. However.....what if it's an ability derived from the Final Surge? Remember, Taln's a Stoneward....

Oh, I don't think sticking out your hand is required at all. In fact, I think it's somewhat of a "tell" meaning that you should really train yourself not to do it, lest you give yourself away. There's even a point where Adolin or Dalinar, I forget who, mentions that they see a Parshendi make a hand gesture that they interpreted as getting ready to summon a Blade, then aborted it. I guess that's my point: a Shardbearer could start the process before deciding for sure that they wanted the Blade, then around heartbeat 8 or 9 stick out their hand and have the Blade appear right on cue. To an observer, it would look like it appeared instantly.

IIFC, there is often mention in "present day" scenes of the 10 heartbeats, but not always. In the Adolin scene, for instance, he holds out his hand, the other guys spits in it, Adolin says "I see" and the Blade appears. Now, in the context of a confrontation like that, 10 heartbeats is actually a pretty long time. Assuming Adolin is alert but not terrified, he's have a heart rate of 80 to 100 bpm, corresponding to 6 to 8 seconds. Meaning, Adolin must have started summoning the Blade before he actually stretched out his hand. We know the Blade doesn't have to be summoned once the process starts; there's a scene where Shallan, afraid of the Cryptics, "began the process" but didn't finish it. Conceivably, Shardbearers could "begin the process" any time they even suspected they might want their Blade, then abort. This could account for scenes where the Blade conveniently appears right on cue. From a writing standpoint, writing out the 10 heartbeats every. single. time. would get very tedious. Along those lines though - it's pretty clear that back in the day, the Radiants had a similar connection to their Plate as they did to their Blades (ex: the Stoneward in Starfalls summons and dismisses her helmet several times). What if the Blade is the final part of the outfit? Meaning, back in the day, heartbeat 1 summoned the breastplate, heartbeat 2 summoned the boots, etc, until heartbeat 9 summoned the helmet, and heartbeat 10 summoned the Blade? Once the outfit is done, it could go "back and forth". So, an armored Knight could summon and dismiss his helmet and Blade in only one heartbeat, since the rest of the Plate stayed where it was.

So, at this point we've been able to fill in most of the surgebinding chart, except for a couple of exceptions. The big remaining mystery is, what is the last surge? Here's what we know so far: 1) Mystery Surge is either shared by 8/9 or by 9/10, but either way, the Stonewards have it. 2) The Stonewards also have the Surface Tension surge. 3) In the Starfalls vision, when Dalinar is talking with the Stoneward and she goes off to help the village, she tells him to stay where he is. She also says to call her if there's trouble, and that she'll hear him. I find this curious. How is she supposed to hear him? Not only is she going to be a ways off, but she'll be in the middle of fighting and there will probably be lots of noise. Could this be a clue to what the Mystery Surge is capable of?

I guess we don't know exactly what ST will do, but if you modify stiffness to make an object soft and malleable, that will let you alter its shape.

Up until the new Jasnah prologue, there was a pretty clear pattern of what Radiant bonding spren were like. They all resembled some other form of common spren, like windspren, vinespren, or lightspren, except that they gained consciousness. Notably, they are all individuals, with one spren per surgebinder. The one exception was Shallan, who's spren were bizarre, did not manifest as any "natural" spren, and rolled in a pack. Now that we've seen Jasnah's spren, though, they definitely resemble Shallan's much more than those of Kaladin/Lift/Ym. Of note, both Jasnah's and Shallan's surges grant access to Shadesmar. So - are these "shadowspren" another subgroup of Cryptics, like Shallan's (and Elhokar's) line-heads? Do all Orders with Shadesmar access have these group spren, as opposed to individual spren? Given that there's pretty strong evidence that Transportation (not just Transformation) will involve Shadesmar, Order 8 is going to have to have these as well. That's three orders going to Shadesmar, all three being next to each other on the chart, and all of them being on the left side. We know also that one of the remaining surges on that side of the chart is "surface tension" though that's not it's real name. But, that surge will allow a surgebinder to modify the shape of an object. According to Cosmere knowledge, an objects "shape" (or "form"! if you will) should be related to the Cognitive Realm. If you think about it, a "chair" or a "window" gains its Cognitive identity from it's physical shape. It's pretty plausible, then, that this surge will also require Shadesmar access. That will then add the Stonewards to the group of Radiants with Shadesmar access, completing the entire left side of the chart. So....what if all the individual spren like Syl are Honorspren and grant Physical Realm surges on the right side, and all the group spren like the line-heads and oily shadows are Cryptics and grant Cognitive Realm surges on the left side?

First off, I just want to brag about the fact that I totes called it on Szeth having Jezrien's Blade, and getting Surgebinding powers therefrom. Now, on to business: Szeth's Blade is described as "smaller than most others" and "long and thin". It's never, however, described as looking odd, or strange, or unique (in appearance). One theory I had initially was that, before the founding of the Orders, the Heralds were the only ones with Shardblades, and their "first-generation" Blades were made to resemble ordinary swords. Later on, when the Orders were making their own Shards, they "upgraded" them to make them bigger, in order to be more useful against thunderclasts. However, Taln's Blade is described as "massive". Also both his and Szeth's/Jezrien's are unornamented, while the others are described as having glyphs/shapes/pieces-of-flair on them, much like other common Blades. My takeaway on all this is: 1) While they do tend to be huge and ornamented, Shardblades have a lot of variability; 2) Szeth's Blade is smaller and plainer than most, but well within the "normal distribution" of Blade appearance; 3) The Honorblades as a whole are also variable and within that same distribution.

Keep in mind that Vorin men can and do read glyphs, which seem to be almost a parallel written language. As for the safehand, even at the highest levels of decorum, it's covered by a very baggy sleeve, so while your fingers aren't completely free, they're at least as free as if you were, say, wearing a mitten. And aside from the nobility, women just wear a glove. So the restrictions do break down somewhat in practice. Also, keep in mind that in the real world, various cultures had the custom of binding women's feet to make them functional cripples (china), wearing corsets so tight that they could barely breathe (victorian england/america), etc. These aspects of Vorinism are another way of Brandon emphasizing "Roshar is a very different world" to us. Which I definitely appreciate, since so much pulp fantasy happens in your standard Disney-fied king Arthur type setting.