11thorderknight

First of all, I thought it was established that Dalinar was writing the predictions during the highstorms? Or was Renarin framing Dalinar all along? I might have missed that part. Second, we should remember that Renarin is not the first Truthwatcher we've seen - that would be Ym. Granted, he was around only briefly, and didnt' really know what was what, but he certainly wasn't seeing visions of the future.

This. Anyone who would know that it might be possible, or even likely, that surgebinders would return would instantly be highly suspicious of Jasnah's "soulcaster". I mean, these things are literally the most precious items in the world; for Jasnah to suddenly find one after 4500 years is only believable to someone who can't entertain any other explanation (which is basically everyone else on Roshar, hence why she gets away with it).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he shows up to find his father as a budding Edgedancer; Lirin was always obsessed with helping people at any cost.

It's possible, but the big problem will be figuring out how to unlock it. Remember, Jasnah's already found the Kholinar Oathgate, she just couldn't make it work. Likewise, Shallan couldn't make any of the Urithiru gates work other than the one to Stormseat. My guess is that shortly after the Recreance, people shut down, broke, or locked all the remaining gates, and the only reason the one on the Shattered Plains survived is because Stormseat was destroyed and abandoned already. The other question is - how well with Urithiru weather the Everstorm? Like everything else on Roshar, it's built to shelter against storms from the east, not the west.

So, at one point years ago, there was some WoB explaining the system of surgebindings and Radiants, and he said that each order was a combination of two of the small circles (i.e. surges) and one large circle (i.e. essence). So each order gets two surges that they share with their neighbors, and "something of their own". Problem is, we haven't yet seen anyone use any "surge combo" - anything any of our characters does is done with one of their two surges, never both at once. So, what do you guys think? Will we see the orders each getting a unique surgebinding feat, that's somehow a combo of their two surges? Or do you think there will be more to it than that?

I cant' remember where it was, but I'm pretty sure somewhere in Way of Kings there's a line that forgetting his wife was actually his boon. Also, the Nightwatcher isn't really like a genie that grants wishes; you ask her for stuff, and she may or may not give you what you ask for, but both the boon and the curse are ultimately chosen by her. And so far, from what we've seen, all her effects are neurologic in nature and affect the individual doing the asking. Which begs the question - did Renarin visit her as well?

I said basically exactly what OP said in a different post. If you actually pay attention to what is said in the Taravangian Interlude, there are TONS of hints that really-smart-T is not a good guy. I think that the Diagram will work, in that it will save some small remnant of the population from annihilation. But I am 100% convinced that there is some huge catch in it that T & Friends don't realize, and that will become apparent the closer he gets to his goals. It's pretty obvious from a meta point as well - I mean, if the Diagram ends up being the answer, then the Stormlight Archive is really focusing on the wrong people, isn't it.

Jasnah explains to Shallan after she saves her that Soulcasting something into blood is easy, since blood is the pure expression of an Essence - it's easier than water, which is a related "non-oil liquid". It's pretty reasonable to assume that the closer something is to what you want it to become, the less Light it costs. Therefore, Soulcasting "Shallan's blood with trace bits of poison" to "Shallan's blood" would cost almost no Light as all, though it would be difficult because Jasnah has to find the right bead in Shadesmar. That's why she was able to do it with a single, partly dim garnet. On the other hand, changing two people, with their innate investiture, into another essence, at a range, is a lot more demanding, and cracked her smokestone. From a practical standpoint, a Shardblade would have been much, much more efficient at eliminating the robbers - Soulcasting them was strictly for Shallan's benefit, to keep Jasnah's secret.

Yes, Taravangian wrote the Diagram - in state of such "brilliance" that he wrote it in codes and languages that he made up on the fly. The entire interlude throws out hints that on very intelligent days, he's also pretty psychopathic - enough so that he placed a three day waiting period on anything he does on those days, because his "intelligent" self isn't always very smart (asking for half his people to voluntarily kill themselves?) My point is that, if he can come up with such stupid ideas on a "normally brilliant" day, what stupid ideas did he think of as reasonable on Diagram Day??? That's the dystopian future I was suggesting might be at the end of the Diagram. And no, they don't understand the Diagram, not entirely. Yes, they've been able to decode most of it, and figure out a lot of it, but it specifically states that he doesn't fully understand what he himself wrote on that day. Hence, the "binding commentary" part. He asked the Nightwatcher for the capacity to save mankind. We don't know what his boon and his curse were. The implication, and what he and his friends think, is that the alternating intelligence is both boon and curse - it gave him the capacity to figure out what to do to prepare for the coming desolation, but the price is that he's really stupid on some days. But we know that the more intelligent he is, the less compassionate he becomes. What if the capacity to save the world isn't in his intelligence, but in his compassion, and he's got it all backwards?

On a lighter note, did anyone else think it was absolutely hilarious that, given what we know of Lift, the Edgedancers were described as the most "refined" of the orders? :-)

I think Adolin's actions at the end were huge - I wouldn't be surprised if that's where his personal journey to Radianthood begins. The whole concept behind the Ten Orders is that there are different ways of being honorable, and some of them can be conflicting. There's Word of Brandon out there that killing Sadeas would disqualify him from the Skybreakers (the real Skybreakers, I assume) but "several orders would be very happy with what he did". I imagine the Windrunners wouldn't be thrilled, but it might not be a dealbreaker for them, since Sadeas basically admitted that he was going to actively work to undermine humanity's best chance for survival. The Elsecallers, on the other hand, would be thrilled - remember that Jasnah first met her spren on the day she planned on having her sister-in-law assassinated! I bet the Willshapers would be cool with it too: being resolute has to do with making tough decisions....sort of like a "you want me on that wall, you NEED me on that wall!" kind of mentality, perhaps.

I'm betting that the the plate comes after the blade in the progression, that's it's the physical manifestation of a full Radiants ability to hold and internally use Stormlight. Think about it - the benefits that Shardplate gives modern Shardbearers are basically the benefits of holding Stormlight, with the notable exception that when damaged, Stormlight will regrow the plate rather than the wearer. A surgebinder like Kaladin can take on a Shardbearer because he gets the same benefits. Eventually, he'll get so good at holding in Stormlight that he won't leak it, and it it will manifest instead as him wearing glowing plate.

I think it's pretty clear that the Diagram is leading to some sort of dystopian future. The examples of "smart T" wanting half the city to kill themselves and the like is a pretty blatant clue. I think it's important that T and friends don't really understand what the Diagram is really trying to do. It's a small point, but in the preview that was originally released by Tor of this interlude, his bodyguard states after his IQ test that T "may not alter the Diagram", but in the actual book he says "he may not make binding commentary on the Diagram". The difference emphasizes that T, even on his smartest days, is not nearly as brilliant as he was the day he wrote the Diagram - he doesn't alter it, but merely interprets it as best he can. My bet is that at some point in the series he finally realized that he's been working toward something really awful. He may or may not then change direction. Maybe he sabotages it on a stupid but compassionate day. It's all in the means vs. ends theme of the Stormlight Archive. Also - does anyone else feel like the concept of the Diagram is a bit of an homage to Isaac Asimov and the Foundation series?

Since the Stormfather refuses to give Dalinar a Blade, at least at this point, the implication is that that it wasn't so much the loss of the bond that the spren feared, but being trapped in mindless Blade form.

If we stick to 100% correct grammar, then the only way to understand "...their spren was understood to be specific..." would be that they all shared one specific spren. However, the grammar and syntax of all the Words of Radiance epigraphs are pretty quirky, so I won't rely on it 100%. It does make a lot of sense though, and it also has a certain elegance to it - the Stormfather is the "father" of the honorspren/windspren that bind to Windrunners, and is himself the spren of the Bondsmiths, thereby completing the circle of the ten orders.

Where was the line that ties highspren to the Skybreakers? the only mention of highspren I remember is that Jasnah tells Hoid she's been talking to them when on the other side.

I have a theory that the first Ideal that they all share - Life before death, etc - can potentially be spoken by anyone, and if they truly live that ideal, they will get basic stormlight use that all orders share, but without access to any of the surges. maybe that's what makes a squire - someone who has committed to the first ideal and the Radiants as a whole, but who hasn't yet found their specific order and bonded a specific spren.

based on the way Words of Radiance ended, the logical arc for Szeth's story in book 3 would be for him to join Nalan's pseudo-Skybreakers, start to question what Nalan is doing, and then attract a spren and become a true Skybreaker. Note that if he ends up as a Skybreaker, all his training with gravitation as a Windrunner will still carry over, since that's the shared surge.

This. Kind of. The "broken soul" thing is a metaphor for a person who's not normal in some way, who's different. Not "I'm just a reguar Joe who happens to have superpowers" different, but who is enough different mentally/emotionally that the average person would call them a little bit crazy. Like someone who enlists in the army to watch their brother, then pays to have other bad soldiers transferred to his unit so he can try to protect them, too. Or someone who insists on being dunked into the ocean without knowing how to swim in order to draw a picture of a giant sea monster. Or someone who escapes a serial killer, then turns around to try to help a kid met earlier that day and probably can't help anyway. In order for the Radiants to exemplify any of the Divine Virtues, they have to become so unbalanced that they come across as weird to others. That's the broken soul.

You guys are right - Hoid is the obvious choice. So obvious I missed it! In a slightly related note, did you notice how he mentions having "perfect pitch" when playing a guitar (Breath)? And that he pours a mysterious powder into his wine prior to getting Shallan to act much more trusting towards him than she normally would (allomancy)? So, he's definitely running around collecting connections to all the various Shards.

So, based on Way of Kings info (which was minimal) it seemed like the ten orders were basically very similar to one another. Sure, they all had their own Ideals, and therefore might have different priorities and temperaments for their members, and obviously had different Surgebinding powers. But otherwise, they were essentially all the same. However, based on some new info from Words of Radiance, we know there were significant differences between them. Here's a list of what we know so far: 1) Some orders had specific Oaths that every member had to speak, like the Windrunners. Others got to choose more personal oaths, with the Lightweavers being perhaps the greatest example of this (speaking personal Truths rather than Oaths). 2) Some orders had rigid hierarchies (again, Windrunners) while others ran around doing their own thing (Lightweavers again?) 3) They had different levels of membership, with the Bondsmiths being almost nonexistent, at 3 members. Implication is that different spren bonds were formed based on the need for them; i.e. lots of Windrunners, Dustbringers and Stonewards for defense maybe, some Skybreakers for enforcement/peacekeeping, Elsecallers, Lightweavers and Truthwatchers being around more during peacetime, etc. 4) Squires - could anyone become one by serving the Radiants and thereby gain some minor surgebinding? Or did you have to be on the path to Knighthood, i.e. have a Nahel bond that wasn't fully mature yet? 5) Order choice - obviously some of the orders have pretty conflicting Ideals, but a lot are very similar - for instance, Jasnah's personality could have put her in the Truthwatchers (learned/giving) as easily as in the Elsecallers, and Dalinar could have been a Willshaper (resolute/builder). Did people get any choice about which order they joined, or was it determined entirely by the spren? 6) Did the Bondsmiths really never have any Shards, or was that just the Stormfather still having his 4500 year long temper tantrum, and further Oaths will get Dalinar a Blade?

Yeah this is all confusing. The count so far: 1) Ghostbloods - seem the oldest, most established, and most Cosmere-aware. Led by Thaidakar. Want to find Urithiru. Ultimate goals unknown, but vague enough that they don't see Shallan's involvement in the re-founding of the Radiants as a barrier to her being a secret member. Have some sort of mutual beef with Jasnah that seems to go beyond a race to find Urithiru. 2) Sons of Honor - want to recreate the Radiants/Voidbringers. Seem to understand that the two go together. Gavilar seems to have been a part of it, along with Amaram. Led by Restares. 3) The Diagram - led by (maybe founded by) Taravangian. Seek to save humanity from the Last Desolation. Taravangian seems to have known of Gavilar's plans, or at least thought fondly of Gavilar, but unclear if Gavilar was ever knowingly involved with them. 4) Skybreakers - Originally a Radiant order, currently a group of self-appointed law enforcement founded and directed by Nalan. Primary purpose seems to be to prevent Desolation by killing any potential surgebinders. 5) Envisagers - Worshipped the Radiants and kept alive knowledge of their abilities. May have devolved into a crazy cult, and may now be extinct. 6) Stormwardens - Not secret, but seem to be heavily involved with both Sons of Honor and the Diagram. This could be just individual members, but maybe go deeper than that. My theory is that the Diagram is secretly manipulating the Sons of Honor into doing what they want.

Couple of things in this thread going on. 1) Words and Ideals - one of the chapter headings from Words of Radiance (the in-book book) mentions, I think, how this was not the same for all the orders. For the Lightweavers, there are no Oaths beyond the first; each individual has her/his own, personal, Truths that they must speak. 2) Shardblade manifestation - For Kaladin, he needed to say the 3rd Ideal, but it was obviously a much more....fluid....process for Shallan. Each order is probably somewhat different in this regard. If what the Stormfather says to Dalinar is true, then Bondsmiths never get shards. This contradicts WoB that all the Radiants had access to them, but maybe since we know now the Bondsmiths were such a tiny order, he didn't include them in his general statement. 3) Skybreakers - people are getting confused here. You have to make a distinction between the original Order of Skybreakers (Knights Radiant) and the gang of henchmen/secret society that Nalan is currently organizing. Szeth has been invited to join the latter, and it's possible that in book 3, as his character progresses, he actually draws a spren and truly becomes one of the former. But people have to keep the distinction in mind, otherwise its confusing.

I think the Shardplate is a further advancement of the Ideals. We know the Radiants could summon and unsummon them they way the did the Blades. I just don't really see the Radiants shitting themselves during the Desolations :-)

We know it was not left with the other 9 the day the Oathpact was abandoned. So, the logical assumption was that Taln dragged it into Kholinar at the end of Way of Kings. However, that Blade has then supposedly been bonded by Dalinar, and then thrown into the bushes of Urithiru because of the screaming-dead-spren thing. But the Honorblades shouldn't have dead spren. Also, Dalinar should have had surgebinding and Surges by bonding it (though, since he's a Bondsmith, one of the surges would have been one he already had). So, the Blade Dalinar bonded was likely not an Honorblade. However, the Blade Taln dragged in was likely not one he found lying around between getting to Roshar from Braize and knocking on the doors of Kholinar. Which means that the chain of custody has been interrupted, a swap was made, and someone is running around with Taln's Honorblade.