Jult

I'm very interested in this because it could be very significant to other Shards. I'd really like to know if Odium performed one action that had both consequences (Intent removed and Investiture inverted) or if those were two distinct actions that he took. I'm leaning towards both being a consequence of one action. Mainly just because the other option feels too convenient, I guess? If there were some method to remove a Shard's Intent without inverting its Investiture, then I feel like Leras would have included it in his plans for stopping Ruin. Or Rayse would have used it when he killed Tanavast. Or Taravangian would have used it before he picked up Honor (assuming he learned it from Odium's memories). But, if the only way to do it is to cause a catastrophic event and create more Evil like Odium did when he fought Ambition, then I could see why no one has done it since.. that we know of.

I'm really surprised I haven't seen this one discussed more. He "removed" Ambition's Intent. Is the Intent just gone now? Does it live on in Odium? Did he rework it into an Unmade? Where'd the Intent go? I wonder if that means Aviar can gain other Invested abilities from their partners, like Surges. Wait a minute... Could Lift's Chicken gain Abrasion and Progression?! Is this foreshadowing!? THIS is something that bothers me about the lack of info we have on the Nahel bond. Is it a two-way street? It would be awesome. But I think it would also cause some problems. Like was Lift's chicken a Feruchemist when it was bonded to Gereh? Aux seems to have some level of access to Zellion's abilities. But then is Design able to access all the abilities Hoid has? She does do some weird voodoo that lets Nikaro's spirit move farther from his body which definitely feels outside of a normal Cryptic's abilities. And what about Seons? Is THAT a Nahel bond? Can Ien use Elantrian abilities? Is Olo also able to use Hoid's abilities? And I don't even want to think about Kelsier's Seon.

By your definitions (and mine!). But, from what we know about Cosmere dragons, they generally seem to have a twisted mentality where the powerful have a right and duty to rule (though most of individuals we've met seem to break this alleged mold). If Medalantorius has a similar mindset, I could see her nurturing a culture where the "heroic" thing to do is to take power out of the hands of those who haven't been trained to use it. Where taking on more power is considered "brave" because it gives you more responsibility and makes you a bigger target. True. Though Komashi is already pretty Japan-heavy. There's plenty of warrior cultures to choose from. Spartans, Romans, or Huns would probably work too. Not that he'd have to pick just one. Or even needs to use real-world inspiration at all.

Medelantorius' definition of (lower-case v) valor will matter in some way too - just as Ati's take on Ruin shifted the Intent towards 'gradual decay' instead of 'wanton destruction'. Defining "valor" is tricky because it's kind of a vague term. I feel like I see it most often used to describe someone "bravely heroic", but bravery and heroism are pretty vague themselves. Does "heroic" that mean you're strong? Honorable? Dutiful? Kind? Selfless? A protector? A leader? A savior? Does "bravery" mean that you have no fear? Or that you act despite your fears? If Medalantorius is a typical example of a Cosmere dragon (Tanavast does describe her as "the great dragon god"), her definition of "valor" may not be a very progressive definition. Tanavast also describes her as a "warrior". And he's convinced she will support him against Odium. If I had to guess based on the limited info that we have.. I'd say Medalantorius would define valor in an old-school "might makes right", "glory in combat" kind of way. Which makes her absence even weirder. You'd think someone with that mindset would want to fight. So, why isn't she? As for her magic system, I'm imagining almost a mirror of Endowment's mechanics. One where power can be transferred between individuals, but where it can't be given and must be forcibly taken. From a narrative point of view, there'd have to be some rules involved. Otherwise, the strongest people in the system could just farm the weaker ones indefinitely. Maybe all the previous posts are influencing my opinion a bit, but I also can't help but picture some kind of dueling viking-adjacent culture. Maybe one where you need to issue/accept formal Challenges where you wager your current Investiture? Something similar to the way the Alethi wager Shards in their arena duels.

I don't know much about linguistics, but I'm obsessed with Fabrials and have spent far too much time staring at the excerpts from Navani's notebook. And most of these words are in there. I couldn't find "still" anywhere. Hope that's helpful

You have the freedom to mix and match. In fact, it's highly recommended that you do. Instead of "Classes", they use the term "Path" in the CRPG. All characters start with one of the 6 Heroic Paths (Agent, Envoy, Hunter, Leader, Scholar, or Warrior). This is kind of the base Archetype for your character. When you level up you can invest Talent Points in that same Path or one of the other 5 OR into a Radiant Path; which are skill trees that represent the 9 Orders of Knights Radiant that you are allowed to join (no Bondsmith player characters). As the game expands, they'll add more paths too (Mistborn trees are coming soon). AFAIK there's no limit to how many different Paths you put points into - at least from a game mechanics perspective. From a roleplaying perspective, it would be strange (but not impossible) to join a bunch of Orders at once. And keeping all of those Oaths would get tricky.

All good points. Except it is specified as mattering: Notably, Hoid was among one of the people who was considered for the original Oathpact. And I don't believe Rayse Invested in him at all.

There was a moment in the debate where Taravangian pointed out that Jasnah doesn't serve the greater good. She instead serves her greater good. I don't remember the exact phrasing. But I agreed heavily with it. Most of the Kholins are guilty of this especially the ones who got thrones (Jasnah, Elhokar, Gavilar, and Dalinar). As cool as the Kholins are, I have very little respect for any of them besides Renarin and sometimes Adolin. However, Taravangian is also a bully and a hypocrite. In my eyes, the main difference is that he has the bigger guns. Heck, he was threatening to wipe out Thaylenah then and there. I don't feel great about it.. But I'd probably do what Fen did. Siding with the Kholins would have been a crazy gamble. I could see myself taking that risk as an individual, but as a monarch? No way am I risking the lives of my people like that. It's a decision made under duress. But it's still a decision.

I don't think we have the full terms of either agreement, but I could be misremembering (especially on the Scadrial side - I haven't read MB Era 1 in ages). I think we're starting to conflate "Connection" with "Investment" here. I think the strongest factor for Kelsier and Marsh is that they know Sazed and have a relationship with him. Just like the Heralds (minus Taln maybe) had a pre-existing relationship with Rayse. Investment probably matters too, but I'd wager it isn't as important as Connection.

The Sunlit Man spoilers: As for weaknesses, I'm speculating, but breaking a Nahel bond must cause some damage to your Spiritweb, right? Maybe it'd make you more susceptible to forms of Investiture that manipulate your Spiritweb? (Mistborn Era 1 spoilers):

True. I got caught up in the Oathpact talk and started imagining Sazed as a willing Tanavast-type participant. Binding him forcibly like Rayse would be much harder. There is a pre-existing deal binding the actions of Preservation and Ruin - The aforementioned pact they made when they created Scadrial. Preservation agreed to let Ruin destroy their creation at some point. In the same way that Honor and Odium remember their deal despite the deaths of their original Vessels, Preservation and Ruin may still be bound to this agreement. All Scadrians have pre-existing Connection to Preservation and Ruin. Preservation and Ruin created them (unlike Rosharans who were created by Adonalsium). Metallic Arts users would have stronger Connections. THIS would be Autonomy's biggest hurdle. Maybe Retribution is the one that Sazed should really be afraid of? ____________________________________________________________ Marsh may have a better Connection than Kelsier honestly. Kelsier has somehow lost his Mistborn card from what we know. And I think Marsh is still technically a Misting? I don't recall if all his Hemalurgy has messed with that. If we wanted to shoot for 4, Wax makes a good candidate. And so would Spook if the crazy theories about him being alive are valid. Or maybe TenSoon?

Correct. There's two points when they discuss numbers of power. Before the original forging of the Oathpact: And then later when the Heralds want to alter the pact (which is what you're remembering): So one, four, or sixteen would probably work for a Scadrian Oathpact. Unless 1 happens to be Ruin's number - then it might be a bad idea.

Honor's power definitely strengthened the binding power of the agreement that Tanavast, Rayse, and Koravellium made. And, you remember correctly, Honor did that on its own without Tanavast's intent (though Tanavast leaned into it when he realized it was happening). But, as far as we know, all Shards experience some level of binding when making a promise. It's why Tanavast and Koravellium proposed a deal with Rayse in the first place. For a non-Rosharan example, it cost Leras severely when he broke his pact with Ati: Also, here's a bonus WoB on the same pact. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A Scadrian Oathpact would probably* be weaker without Honor's involvement but based on the above I think it would work. And as @Trusk'our pointed out already, Preservation would probably be very keen on respecting it. *I say "probably" because there are other factors. Such as: the number of oath keepers. Tanavast said either 16 or 10 oath keepers would be the strongest options for him. For Preservation, 16 holds double significance. Tanavast only held Honor's power. Sazed is packing two Shards ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Side-side note with some IotE spoilers:

I'd say yes. Kelsier has strong Connections to Preservation, Ruin, AND Sazed himself. He'd make an excellent attack vector. A tangential idea that popped into my head while reading this: The New Oathpact protects the spren from Retribution despite them being created from Honor's Investiture. Scadrian's were created from Preservation and Ruin's Investiture. Could some kind of Scadrian Oathpact protect all Scadrians from Discord?

Cool idea. I've often wondered why more Shards didn't take advantage of immortality hacks like Fused, Heralds, and Returned. There are a few WoBs that back up the idea too. Specifically, the bit about red eyes coming from corruption:

Yes! It's implied that this is what the Scadrians are doing in Chapter 45. They were studying just how much Investiture they could fit into a single sunheart. And Nomad notes that the one he sees in that Chapter has a much higher charge than normal.

Based on Kalak's description of Jezrien's death, I'm not sure a Raysium dagger would still kill a Herald. It seems like the weakening of the original Oathpact was also a factor in Jezrien's death. RoW Epigraphs 90-93: Unclear to me if the new Oathpact is strong enough to prevent a similar death. If it is, then well.. you'd have to figure out how to break the new Oathpact first. I think your better option may be to keep them trapped, but also permanently alive (since they'd just respawn on death). Maybe some mechanism similar to how Hoid trapped himself on Komashi?

Interesting ideas. I do think they are likely manmade or at least partially manmade. Naturally occurring just seems too improbable. I could see several of the Surges being useful for the creation of perfect gemstones. We haven't seen much Division in action, but the RPG says it can be used for "elaborate etching or shaping". And Dustbringers tend to enjoy engineering and tinkering. I could see the potential for using very precise Division to eliminate imperfections in a gemstone. Transformation could maybe be used to simply convert some stone into a perfect gemstone. Though a small note there is that Soulcasters (the ancient fabrials - not the people) are allegedly unable to create polestones. TWoK: Though that rule might not apply to Radiants. Or Shallan could just be an unreliable narrator. And then there's Progression. Most gemstones on Roshar are actually gemhearts; which are body parts.. So, I wonder if Progression can be used to 'heal' a gemheart to resemble a more perfect version of itself?

Horneaters and Herdazians are both suspected of being at least partially Singer, yes. But they seem very distantly related (likely they haven't had any actual Singers in their bloodlines since before the Recreance). I imagine the immediate offspring of a human and a Singer would be quite different. Both actually. Tarson, for example, has one human parent and one Koloss. I believe the term is used for anyone with Koloss blood (even full-blooded) who is either too young to receive their spikes or chose not to ever receive them.

I wonder if this is related to why El replaces most of his carapace with metal?

Thinking about this more... There are few other survivors with K names. I doubt they're all intentional (Brandon has said as much before). Kalad (AKA Vasher) has done his fair share of surviving Kalak too, though this is true of every Herald Kenton survived the Sandmaster purge Even Kaloo could be called a "survivor"

We hit on a couple of these in @Cosmer's Will the Real Survivor Please Stand Up? topic as well. It is pretty curious. So, what would a convergent evolution of some kind mean for the future? Well, it seems like Scadrial has a headstart. So, maybe we could use Scadrial to predict some of Roshar's future? The emergence of Twinborns, for instance, is something I could see mirrored on Roshar. Perhaps an expansion on how Venli is holding both a voidspren and a normal spren in her gemheart? Or just more Shallan style double-bonds? Fabrials already pretty obviously mirror Medallions, but we know both are going to progress in major ways Speaking of technological advancements, electricity is already becoming a normal thing on Scadrial and it would solve several problems if Roshar could do the same Advancements in Hemalurgy have already been foreshadowed on both planets, but Scadrial will likely get there first since they've had it longer Aimians seem to be a good mirror to Kandra, but I can't see them devoting themselves to Retribution like the Kandra did for Harmony I wonder if half-singers would function similarly to the Koloss-blooded. As in the way Koloss-blooded can choose to become full Koloss by accepting spikes at a certain age. Maybe Singer-blooded can choose to go full Singer by accepting a spren at a certain age? Doesn't seem right to me, but what do I know? The only other Era 2 Scadrial thing that comes to mind is the Malwish. But I think we'd know by now if there was a secret second continent somewhere on Roshar

It's mentioned a few times in TWoK. It's why dun spheres are suspicious. The simplest method for confirming that a sphere is not fake is seeing it hold Stormlight. TWoK quotes (spoilered for length): I think what Trusk'our is wondering is if Roseite can be 'tweaked' enough by an Aetherbound to technically qualify as any of the Polestones. I'd lean towards "no", but I don't think we have enough information to fully reach a conclusion. There are WoBs that say chemical composition AND color both matter. We don't actually know the composition of Roseite or how much control an Aetherbound has over its color. But if it IS similar enough to quartz and an Aetherbound could match the color of either Smokestone or Amythyst, then it may work. I suppose it's also possible that Roseite just works on its own without any shenanigans either. It could just be an 11th polestone that no one has tried before since it isn't naturally present on Roshar. But I'd call that even less likely.

Thank you! The bit I posted I copied directly from Puuli's Coppermind page. The rest wasn't there unfortunately. How would Puuli's lighthouse even be relevant if these sailors are coming from Shadesmar? Is it possible Natan can see into the Cognitive Realm? I believe Siah Aimians have some CR shenanigans going on based on their funky shadows. And (based on their skin color) Natans are probably Siah Aimian-human hybrids. Is Puuli looking toward whatever in Shadesmar lines up with the Origin? Oh wow I was definitely imagining the feats as much more similar than they actually are. Too much bad sci-fi rots the brain. I'm sure Brandon could still find a way, but yeah it's definitely not going to be as simple as I thought.

Since posting this I've done some searching through the forums (which I admittedly should have done before posting). I found several stray comments as if this has been discussed before but couldn't find a dedicated topic for it. From what I gather, Puuli's Interlude in Oathbringer is what made it come up before. Since it predicts the arrival of conquerors from an island near the Origin that will reclaim Natanatan. I had completely forgotten about Puuli. Unclear if the island he refers to is the same as the one in the Wandersail story where the Uvara reside. Puuli's island is supposedly EAST of Roshar and the Wandersail supposedly sailed WEST of Roshar, but y'know.. The world is round. I'd personally say they're different islands since the Uvara are described as having long, limber bodies and the Natan are not. Also, the Natan have blue skin. I don't think a skin color was specified for the Uvara, but that would lead me to guess it wasn't unusual. The Great Abyss sounds more like an "anti-Origin" to me anyway. I doubt they're the same place. The Origin itself is probably a mystery worth exploring. We know it's where Dalinar sensed the Stormfather's presence whenever he wasn't, uh, storming. And Cucicesh faced directly toward it in his now-broken cycle. I also saw a lot of posts about how Roshar's native flora and fauna seem semi-aquatic, but that's probably more a result of them adapting to Highstorms (and the Doylist explanation that Brandon took inspiration from tide pool ecosystems when designing Roshar).