Jult

As a big part of that uptick, I thank you. I strongly agree. I often see people associating Renarin's visions with the fact that Glys is Enlightened. And, while that probably has some impact on it, I do think Fortune has always been part of the Truthwatcher toolkit to some degree. Brandon has mentioned that Truthwatchers are more closely linked to the Spiritual Realm than the other Orders (except Bondsmiths). Which I think supports this idea as well. While we are on the subjects of the Double Eye and Truest Surges... Something else that bothers me about the Double Eye is there's some asymmetry to Honor's truest surge and Cultivation's truest surge both being on the right side. Might just be me, but my brain really wants them to be in mirrored positions. Which got me wondering if the Surges that do mirror them (Tension and Illumination) have anything to do with H+C. And it's almost just the opposite. I'm a little tempted to throw up the idea of Illumination being Honor's "falsest" Surge or some other catchier name. Basically, the Surge least aligned with Honor's Intent. I doubt Liespren resonate well with Honor. Similarly, that would make Tension Cultivation's "falsest" Surge. Which is a tougher sell to me.. I guess you could say Tension makes things less susceptible to change. And Peakspren are probably the least fluid of the True Spren. I'm sure this has all been said before somewhere. But maybe there should be some implied axii along the diagonals of the Double Eye to represent alignment with the Shardic Intents?

You're welcome. Another fun fact you may find interesting: using multiple Honorblades, bonding multiple spren, or some combination of the two would potentially give you access to new abilities by mixing Surges that aren't normally mixed.

You're referring to this WoB, I believe: And this artwork for Shards of Creation: Brandon said in the WoB that he hadn't 100% made up his mind on Skai but was leaning towards she/her. My guess is he changed his mind.

Actually, Kaladin manifested his own Honorspear when re-forging the Oathpact. So, I think he doesn't really have a connection to Jezrien's old blade. Nale actually was bonded to a spren in addition to holding his Honorblade. Brandon has said that this makes you a bit stronger, but probably by less than you'd imagine: Yes. Brandon has even said you could get access to all 10 Surges at once if you collected the right Honorblades. I think we saw this a little with Szeth. I don't fully recall which ones, but I think he used some of the Honorblades in WaT - despite being a Skybreaker.

Ah well there goes that theory. I guess it's Cultivationspren after all. Thank you for finding the quote. Your point about them being in the center of the Double Eye is definitely interesting, and as the WoB you included says, their powers are different in ways that are similar to how Bondsmith powers are different. So there does seem to be something special about them, but it doesn't sound like being pure Cultivation is it. And thanks to you as well. Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep looking for oddities related to Mistspren/Truthwatchers, but it looks like I was chasing the wrong lead. I would assume Cultivation consented to letting her spren be bound. The oaths were kind of her idea anyway. I'm not sure if this is the same section PanLin was referring to but it might be. WaT 113: Looking at this now, it almost feels like direct manipulation of Tanner and Rayse from Kor. She gave them two options for meting out powers, and one was obviously designed to appeal to Honor. Another thing worth noting from that chapter is that Kor also enters this agreement. I feel like it's often characterized as a pact between Honor and Odium that she just happened to be there for. But it's her pact too.

I always viewed Rayse's targeting of Aona and Skai as convenience more than anything else. He was looking for Ambition first and just happened upon them breaking the agreement that the Shards made and settling the same planet. It gave him an excuse to attack them without provoking the other Shards. A tactic that worked based on Edgli's response (OB Epigraphs 37, 39-41) and the fact that no one came after him. It's probably why he went to Roshar too. Kor and Tanner also broke the rules. So, he would have been "justified" in removing them. Don't forget his goal was to take out all of the other Shards. I don't think he had a special interest in removing Devotion in particular - he just found himself in a position where he knew he could get away with it.

I've seen this idea before. And I do like it quite a bit. However, I think it's hard to reconcile with the Tanavast quote alder24 put above: If the Unmade were the cityspren, I feel like it would have been nearly impossible to hide their creation from Tanavast. Unless Tanavast just really wasn't paying attention. Master_Moridin makes a good point too. There are a few hints that the Unmade aren't all spren. I think alder24's idea of the Ancient Spren already having similar tones to H+C because all Investiture aligned to one of the Shards at the time of the Shattering is the best idea for getting around this. Side note: I feel like sometimes we conflate tones and rhythms in these discussions. Being able to actually hear these things would be nice.. Describing sounds is hard.

There was originally going to be more to their position on the chart, but Brandon felt he was getting too into the weeds: My feeling is that, despite him not committing to it, there's still something important about Truthwatchers compared to the other orders in his head. They might be. I know the Enlightened Cryptic and Inkspren that we saw in WaT had Honor in them. But I think that's because normal Cryptics and Inkspren were made by Honor. If Mistspren are the one variety that Kor created by herself, then normal Mistspren would have no Honor. And neither would enlightened ones. See but I would interpret this bit: to say that one of the Radiant spren is purely of Cultivation (though their ability to use Stormlight admittedly raises some questions). I think that variety will be very important. Because it should be safe from Retribution's influence even without the protection of the Oathpact. Which might be a point in favor of Cultivationspren, since most of the Mistspren we know are corrupted. But I can't shake the idea that Mistspren matter more. I remember this! I'm pretty sure it was the start of my descent into this Mistspren rabbit hole.

I'm not sure a real-world example would translate well to the Cosmere. Most of these planets only have far less governing bodies than Earth. Take Sel. As far as we know, it's 3 Empires and 2 independent nations. Getting 5 political powers to unify against say, Retribution knocking at their door, feels pretty within reach. It kind of has to be for the sake of the story. Even Roshar's 31 nations were essentially boiled down to 2 main alliances by the end of WaT. The average reader won't keep track of that many moving parts. I swear there's a WoB somewhere where Brandon talks about simplifying the Alethi government by removing most of the highprinces for a similar reason, but maybe I just imagined it because I cannot find it. I could see 2-3 factions per planet, but it starts getting too complicated beyond that.

Not sure if this makes it better or worse for you, but Dustbringers don't even like the name "Dustbringer". They prefer to be called "Releasers".

That makes much more sense. I was afraid I'd missed something. Interesting. I had thought a bit about Scadrial being divided between the North and South, but for some reason I sort of just imagined most planets reaching a point of unification once a Cosmere-level threat existed. Keeping them divided could be really interesting, albeit confusing. I'm not sure I have the initiative to put together a list of alliances by nation instead of planet. But that might be the better approach. With multiple factions from some of these planets, I would guess? Scadrial, Roshar, and Sel are all currently split into at least 2 factions apiece. Taldain seems split on the light and dark sides. If Dragonsteel Prime is any reflection of canon Yolen, I'd imagine separate human and Sho Del factions. And who knows what's up with Dhatri?

True yeah I am for sure oversimplifying for the sake of having only 3 groups. And, in most cases, I don't imagine planets being completely dominated. But the idea of truly neutral planets feels unlikely to me. Nalthis, for example, may not officially ally with or swear allegiance to either faction. But I think they'll at least be rooting for one side over the other. For the planets that have the freedom to choose, I'm still interested in knowing who they consider the lesser of two evils. I wouldn't call these full predictions - more of a though exercise of: if these planets had to pick a side, who would they pick? I think "right now" are the key words there. It'd feel a bit anti-climactic (to me) from a writing point of view to keep hinting at an approaching conflict and then never have one. So, I did know about Jaddeth. I just wasn't sure how to factor him into things. You think Autonomy would be pro-Scadrial? I did 100% forget about the Night Brigade. Yeah Threnody is going back in the Undecided column. Right. I can't believe I didn't make a note about that. I still don't think I can place them on either side though. They probably have the best chance at neutrality.

Sorry in advanced to the astrophysicists who thought this was going to be a science discussion. It's a political one. Sort of.. The Secret Projects, especially Isles of the Emberdark have made it pretty clear that there is a Cosmere-wide war in the future that seems to primarily be Roshar vs Scadrial. And, if Drominad is any indicator, participation is not optional... Unless you have a giant anti-Investiture deterrent. So, I'd like to take some guesses at which planets in the Cosmere have (whether willingly or otherwise) joined Team Scadrial or Team Roshar. Mostly just on vibes. But I think it could lead to some fun discussion or maybe people pointing out connections between planets that I forgot/never knew. Team Scadrial Canticle - There were Scadrian scientists stationed here and they had alliances with the Cinder King. It's a little unclear how things will proceed after Zellion's intervention, but Roshar doesn't seem to have any foothold here at all. Dhatri - Kelsier tells Sazed they would make a good ally in TLM. We see Prasanva working for Kelsier already. And an Aetherbound assisted the Scadirans in IotE. Lumar - This one could kind of go either way. There are some hints of Scadrian culture throughout (though I'd point to the Iriali for that rather than true Scadrians). Also, there's a Kandra hanging out there. I'd say Lumar is at least more likely to be claimed by Scadrial, since there seems to be some method of traveling there from Scadrial. Mythos - We know almost nothing about Mythos. But Kelsier said it would maybe be a potential ally to Scadrial. Simply by the logic of "the Scadrians got there first", I'm putting them on Team Scadrial. Komashi - I admit that it's a tenuous connection. But Hoid leaves Komashi via the "Iron Seven Waystation". That sounds Scadrian to me. Team Roshar Grand Apparatus - I didn't get the impression that the Grand Apparatus was under anyone's control. But we know the Sleepless have been agreeable towards Rosharans before and the Scadrians really seem to fear them. Nalthis - Another tricky one. We know there are Kandra active on Nalthis. And that Edgli is not an Odium fan. But I think the Five Scholars' history with Roshar probably puts Nalthis in Roshar's corner. Especially since Edgli doesn't really seem to get directly involved in Nalthian politics. Sel - Based on Dalinar's visions, Elantris is going to be a future battleground for Roshar. I think they'll be forcibly conquering Sel to bring it under their banner. Plus, I'm not sure how much influence the Ire have on Sel, but they've got to be pretty sore towards Scadrial in general after Mistborn: Secret History. Threnody - Ehh... This should probably be in the Undecided section below. But Scadrial's hostile treatment of Nazh in IotE makes me want to give this one to Roshar. Undecided Bjendal - We know virtually nothing about this place other than it's a "primary system" and, as of TLM, the Ghostbloods can't visit their without extreme danger. First of the Sun - They told both sides to get lost. Obrodai - Another obscure one. Autonomy has an Avatar there. She does hate Harmony. And she's allied with a Vessel of Odium before. But I don't think she'll be open to a similar arrangement with Retribution. Taldain - Another Autonomy planet (the main one). It sounded like they had problems of their own during IotE. Not sure how they are avoiding the war. Perhaps they're just advanced enough to stand as a third-party. Starling did mention that they kill Sleepless on sight on Taldain. So, I doubt they're friends of Roshar. And it's pretty clear from Mistborn Era 2 that they wouldn't really be pro-Scadrial either. Utol - Tempted to give this one to Scadrial since I gave Komashi to them. But also I think it'd be neat to see Roshar take the second planet in this two-planet system. Either way there's almost no evidence in either direction. Vax - The only concrete thing I know about Vax is that it exists. Yolen - I somehow know less about Yolen's current state than Vax's. Because I'm not certain that Yolen does still exist.

I've been really digging into the Tanavast chapters in WaT recently and one passage really stood out to me the other day (WaT Chapter 104): After this passage, Tanavast immediately leaves for Ashyn without finishing the tenth variety. So, this inspired a few lines of thought. Not sure if any one alone is big enough for a discussion, but all of them together should be. 1. Which variety is 100% Cultivation? I know the obvious answer is Cultivationspren. But is it the correct answer? Mistspren bother me so much that I could probably make a topic about them alone.. They are the least humanoid in the Cognitive Realm and can even take fully non-human shape. Truthwatchers get an extra special spot in the Double Eye. Truthwatcher powers feel more aligned to Cultivation than Edgedancers (future-sight > Abrasion). They seem the most open to Sja-Anat's Enlightenment (perhaps because they have no Honor in them). Plus, mists don't seem that common on Roshar. But mists do have some larger Cosmere significance (Vax and Scadrial). 2. Honorspren are not 100% Honor That's it. That's the note. I was under the impression that they were 100% Honor, but he says "almost". It was news to me, so maybe it's news to you too. 3. Did they ever create the tenth variety Kor was envisioning? My gut instinct is to point at the Bondsmith spren. They aren't affected by people's perception of them; which was one of Kor's main goals for the tenth variety. And Brandon has called the 3 of them one "kind" of spren before (WoB). But also consider: They aren't original creations - they're born of Wind, Stone, and Night. Which feels like they shouldn't count to me. Tanavast and Kor didn't create them together. We see Tanavast imprint himself onto the storm while Kor is off-planet. The Sibling and Stormfather seem nearly incapable of change - which feels like it doesn't meet Kor's vision. I know Tanavast got distracted and left after the 9th variety was completed. If I were Kor, I probably wouldn't have left the job unfinished. I would have created a tenth without Tanavast.

Oh. Well then. Maybe it doesn't cause as many issues as I thought. I guess, keeping with the current line of theorizing that Rayse did share a tone with Dawn, maybe that extra Connection made whatever was left of Dawn more noticeable to Rayse than the other Shards? I suppose that could explain him finding and unmaking Dawn without Tanavast noticing. I've been reviewing random passages related to the ancient spren, bondsmith spren, and Unmade. One thing that intrigues me is that the Sibling is afraid that they will be unmade when Odium's forces seize Urithiru. I think this slightly reinforces the idea that the Unmade were once powerful spren. It also would imply that the Sibling understands a bit more about the Unmade than we do.

I've got a bit of a suspicion that the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith will be a Horneater. Mainly because Cultivation's perpendicularity is in the Horneater Peaks. And I think Cultivation would find the Horneaters fascinating because they're a hybrid race of humans and singers - which sounds like the kind of thing that would appeal to her Intent. Perhaps the Nightwatcher will appear in the upcoming Horneater novella that takes place after Oathbringer? I think it'd be interesting if she chose a Bondsmith before Cultivation left Roshar. Although, if you're looking for creepy characters to bond her, a Sleepless would probably be high on my list.

Okay, second wall of text to follow up on the stuff I mentioned at the end of my initial post: 1. Would Dawn have a modern counterpart like Wind=Stormfather, Night=Nightwatcher, and the Stone=Sibling? The modern Bondsmith spren were created by Honor and Cultivation. As I said above, I think Dawn died/deadeyed before Honor and Cultivation even arrived on Roshar. I don't think they were ever even aware of Dawn because Tanavast was certainly surprised by the remains of the 4th moon. However, someone last year did mention that the Lifebrother is a thing, and his name does feel very Bondsmith-y. Still, I think the answer is no. Maybe one will be created in the back half, but I don't think there is currently one. 2. Could someone bond Dawn and become a 4th Bondsmith? I think yes (although with the deaths of Stormfather and Dalinar, I guess we're technically back down to 3 Bondsmith). It's mentioned that Bondsmiths used to bond to the Ancient Spren before the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling showed up. So, I don't see why Dawn wouldn't be able to make a bond too. They may even serve as an interesting loophole to the Oathpact since they were wholly uninvolved when it was forged. Dawn could possibly be free from the constraints of Oaths. Adolin would be my choice to bond Dawn if someone was going to. 3. Ba-Ado-Mishram I go back and forth on whether or not BAM and Dawn could be related or even the same being. It meshes well with some of my ideas and clashes with others. Like yeah it fits well because they both have 'light' themes and BAM looks like a Dawnsinger and there's something interesting to be said about her usurping Rayse if Rayse was already leveraging her tone. But, also, it throws a wrench in the idea that the Shards don't know about Dawn. Unless Tanavast just has no idea where the Unmade came from. Plus, it kind of raises the question of what the other 8 Unmade are. But I guess other powerful non-bondsmith spren like the Grey Remnant exist so.. 4. Other random tidbits ~I'd probably associate Dawn with the Spark Essence. Which is linked to Bravery. Something I normally wouldn't bother to mention except.. y'know.. RoW 113: ~Flamespren have been literally all over the story so far thanks to spanreeds and other fabrials. If Dawn's relationship to them is similar to Wind's with Windspren. Then Dawn could be very in-the-know.

I agree. It's one of my main suspicions for BAM's origins (though not my only one). I said yesterday that Odium probably aligned with Dawn's tone rather than Stone's. And I think I'd like to double down on that. If Odium was using Dawn's tone and BAM was once Dawn, it would make her seizure of control from Odium make a bit more sense to me. If taking the Well of Control was all it took to steal the reigns from Odium, then I feel like anyone could have done it. But, if BAM was once Dawn... then, in a way, she would have been reclaiming Connections that were rightfully hers. This is beautiful and perhaps the best answer I can think of to some of @Frustration's concerns.

But then why 4? Even if the theories about Valor hiding out on Roshar are true the fourth is hers, I feel like her adding a fourth tone to the mix would immediately give away her hiding spot to the other Shards on the planet. That is exactly how I reconcile it. I do think 4th spren and 4th moon fell before Honor and Cultivation even arrived. Wind and Stone do feel cognitively impaired to me and even if they weren't I'm not sure they'd have a reason to bring up ancient history. I've also considered that the new Bondsmith spren could know about Dawn since they contain parts of the ancient spren, but the Stormfather and the Sibling have lied and omitted truths repeatedly throughout the story so far. So, it wouldn't really be that odd to find out there's more that they hid. I also find this super weird. I don't understand why all 4 tones would result in a pattern that resembles an inverted version of anti-Honor. It's possible that maybe Venli just has poor pattern recognition. Maybe what she's seeing is 4 patterns overlaid with one another and it mostly reminds her of the plains because Honor would be 1/4th of that image? Yes! I think there's a lot of symbolism to Dawn returning to a Roshar that largely has no sunlight thanks to the Everstorm. I think she'll need extra help to recover, but Adolin (mister "born unto light") seems to have spent his whole life being prepared for this.

From the chasmfiends... And Venli. I glossed over that passage on my first readthrough too. Venli chapters are not my favorite... See the quote in my first post. It was Night's song that initially attracted Koravellium to Roshar. And on re-reading that chapter just now, Tanavast felt pulled to Wind's: I agree it's not definitively stated. But I think Tanavast adopted Wind's tone and Koravellium adopted Night's. Which, I suppose would mean Rayse either took Stone's or the one that had previously belonged to Dawn. Considering we don't see much connecting Rayse to Stone, I'd assume he took over Dawn's empty post.

I posted a theory about this over a year ago on the Cosmere forum. But it's really a Stormlight-specific theory, so I'm gonna try putting this updated version here because there's a chance Stormlight-only readers actually exist. I've had some time to think it over and gained a bit of new Rosharan info from things like the RPG sourcebooks. And think it deserves a bit of a refresh. Let's talk about the primal spren: Wind, Stone, and Night. They predate the arrival of the Shards on Roshar. They were left by Adonalsium - the being with 4 aspects. Who wielded 4 Dawnshards. And built Roshar - with its 4 moons and 4 pure tones. I don't believe Wind, Stone, and Night are a trio. I believe they are a quartet with a missing member. I think there's some evidence to support this idea too. Firstly: the 4 tones. Koravellium associates one of them with Night when she first arrives in the Rosharan system: If one of the tones is connected to Night, I think it's a reasonable conclusion to say that Wind and Stone are each also connected to a tone. And then, what? There's a fourth tone that has no spren? I think not. I think the 4th tone needs a 4th primal spren. Secondly: push and pull. Brandon loves this theme and it is strong throughout the Cosmere. Wind and Stone seem paired in a relationship of this type. But where is the "push" to Night's "pull"? I think this all points to a 4th primal spren who is an opposite to Night. One who I have been calling "Dawn" in my head. Why "Dawn"? Originally, I had been calling it "Day", but another user pointed out that what Roshar needs more than anything right now is a Dawn that brings an end to the Everstorm. And I really liked that. Plus, I realized later that the Dawnsingers and Dawn's Shadow could potentially be named after the spren they worshipped. So, where is Dawn? I think they were hurt. Badly. Before the Shards even arrived on Roshar. I think that's why the 4th moon fell in Natanatan (which is where Dawn's Shadow is btw). And I think they are in some kind of deadeye-esque state. But I think they are recovering (more on that later). That's already a pretty decent sized wall of text. I have other thoughts on Dawn like whether they would have a modern counterpart like Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Sibling. Or how they might connect to Adolin or Ba-Ado-Mishram. And whether their existence would imply the possibility of a 4th Bondsmith. But let's start with the above because it's already a lot to unpack.

I love Unmade theories. I've just got to know more about them. Some random BAM and Nightwatcher notes I have that may be relevant to this discussion: Somewhere on the 17th Shard (I'm having trouble finding it - my search timed out?) there was a group that translated the symbols around the border of this BAM art: I believe what they came up with was "The Child of Light and Music". So, I've been assuming that is the literal translation of her name. Especially since we can guess that the "Ado" portion of her name means "light" because the "Ado" in "Adolin" means light. There's also a very weird line in the Stormlight World Guide for the Cosmere RPG in the Nightwatcher's description: I'd lean towards BAM being something other than Night. Mostly because she seems to be largely associated with light - which I'd consider more of an opposite to Night. But also, because the RPG seems to (perhaps accidentally) confirm that the Nightwatcher was once Night.

I'm around Scranton, Pennsylvania.

I maybe would have put this on the Cosmere board instead of the Stormlight board for.. reasons. I fully agree that Vasher will have a major role to play eventually. I expect that at some point in the Cosmere's future, nearly all of the original Vessels will be replaced with characters that we've watched ascend. And Vasher's been on my shortlist of potential Vessels for a while. I've never really considered him as a candidate for Retribution, but yeah he's definitely on the right planet and his personality is a pretty decent match for the Retribution. ^That's a bit more difficult for me to get on board with. I do have some theories about Autonomy messing with Roshar, but I don't think Autonomy is allied with any of the other Shards.

I don't think it has been 100% confirmed to be one. But it's implied pretty heavily and generally accepted as fact around here.