Moirne

This is just a musing in response to the assertion on the most recent Shardcast (and the previous episode on Threnody) that Threnodites in the Homeland did not form Shades upon death. Do we know that for sure? My initial impression years back was that Hell has been collecting Shades for quite some time, even prior to the forescouts arriving. My assumption was that the Shades generated when homeworlders died appeared in Hell, because … well, it’s Hell, right? Could this explain why the prey animals were already gone when the first settlers arrived in Hell, because their own civilization’s ghosts had already been active there for quite some time? This made even more sense to me when reading about Braize - that a large collection of investiture, or a special type of it, can draw spirits/souls. Might something like that be present in Hell? And then on Canticle, where investiture is moving around based on the alignment of planet and sun, the Shades either form and get vaporized or form and have nowhere to go other than the Chorus tanks if they happen to die outside of the sunlight? If there is textual evidence going against this, my apologies!

I think if the twins were Frost and his sister, Hoid would have just said “your uncle and aunt” (or “mother”) to Starling. That rules out Frost for me.

My pet theory has been that the Iriali initially came from Yolen and Cusicech is modeled after the fainlife they remember - shaped into that form by their collective mythology like the Dakwara.

I wanted to start a compilation of differences people have noticed between the original novella and the new revision. Feel free to chime in - I’ll update my original post with my observations as I continue to reread! There are more minor differences than I remembered at first, so I’ve started putting the ones I consider particularly interesting or important in bold type. * Much longer monologue about Dusk’s navigation techniques when first approaching the Pantheon. Only the new version acknowledges that he “hates” the more modern equipment, where his view seems more neutral in the original text. * Dusk’s age - he is 10 years out of apprenticeship in the original, but 15 years out in the update. * Dusk catches a fish before paddling closer to the Pantheon in the updated version, while he snacks on the previous night’s catch in the original (these lines are shifted to slightly later in the update). * The line “Patji. King of the Pantheon. God of the Eelakin.” is unique to the updated version. * Lore is introduced about the trappers’ medallions while Dusk is offshore from Patji in the new version. We learn they depict Cakoban, are rubbed for good luck, and are carried by a trapper until he dies. * In the original, Dusk sees the meekers immediately after noticing some of the trading company expedition has fled to the woods. In the new version, we get this somewhat chilling line and then a chapter break: “And so, he moved beneath the dark canopy, this time trapping not birds, but humans.” * In the update, Dusk is explicit about what questions he should not be thinking: “about why Patji was so terrible” * In the original, Dusk thinks Vathi’s name is “a name like the mainlanders used” while this reference is removed in the update (presumably to tie in with new information about the mainland) * In the new version, Dusk and Vathi pass a hive of masher wasps, which are not mentioned in the original. * In the original, Vathi refers to “Dusk” as a name, while in the update it is clarified as a forename. * In the midst of their argument about changing times, new version Dusk is shocked to hear Vathi doesn’t know the story of Cakoban, who of course is not mentioned in the original. * Original Vathi stated that all twenty chiefs have agreed to explore Patji, while new Vathi mentions one hundred and twenty! She also describes a supermajority vote and a Senate. * New version Vathi notes that the Ones Above have two arms and legs, and wear helmets, while original Vathi just says they look and speak like her people. * Original Vathi says the Ones Above ambassador choked to death and left his machines behind, which demonstrated they could die of normal means. New Vathi just says he left the machines behind by accident. * Original Dusk is warned of a sinkhole by Sak, while in the new version this is a den of a tokka. On the whole, I see many more creatures described in the updated version, which does lend more uniqueness to the setting compared to an Earth jungle. * New: Dusk thinks about the pool as the reason a bird could become an Aviar if raised on Patji, while Vathi is questioning him on the subject. * Patji’s Finger renamed to Cakoban’s fingers. * Dusk takes a medallion from the dead trapper in the new version. * More new flora in the updated version: stinging terror vines. * New version Dusk gives Vathi his uncle’s medallion after scolding her. * In the new version, Vathi opens a fruit to reveal the glowing worms inside. * New Vathi takes a moment to reassure Dusk about change meaning a person has the capacity to be someone new. * In the update, Dusk sees glowing butterflies while hiding from the nightmaws in the lake, and is told “well done” by a voice - presumably Patji. * Some rewording of Dusk’s inner monologue about the Ones Above’s plan in the update. * Dusk and Vathi hold up their medallions next to each other in the new version, rather than mating plumes.

It’s late, so forgive me if this makes no sense, but I wonder if it’s almost a push and pull situation with electricity/electrons rather than metal? So he can manipulate the circuitry without necessarily needing to understand the interface.

That was my first thought too! Maybe Cusicech has been formed and shaped by the Iriali collective lore.

Whimsy for me - basically giving in to impulsive but enjoyable behavior as a job, and not at the top of anyone’s hit list.

What do you mean? Look how well Gavinor is doing!

Hm. Do we think Taravangian let her come along to fake Kharbranth, so she has knowledge of it which could compromise him? Or did he just explain her away as one of the ones that died?

I wonder who was accepting the Enlightened oaths in the first place - weren’t those spren hiding from Stormfather and Odium both? Maybe Sja-Anat was?

I actually like Ambition under Change - aspiring to change yourself and become better.

I think he wouldn’t, he admits to himself that Odium could have picked any innocent person to prove the same point. And I think Odium would have considered either of the two standard outcomes (Dalinar kills the innocent, or he refuses and surrenders) to be a win. It was the third outcome (not participate at all, reject contract) that he didn’t anticipate.

I wonder if he was just going to select some other rando who would appear innocent, and bribe him into the contest. Like a starving farmer who just wants Odium’s protection so he can feed his family. But then Gav showed up in the SR and he couldn’t help himself.

Too bad, Moash is on at least his 5th chance.

I guess the question is whether there are any more “traditional” shardbearers with deadeyes and no spren, or if all the deadeyes have been healed and there are just unoathed shardbearers and traditional radiants. Or if a Scadrian would know the difference.

I definitely took this to mean one of the kids wasn’t Chana’s, and I think it’s Helaran (both because he’s the oldest, maybe even conceived before Chana and Lin’s marriage, and seemingly the most mentally stable).

“Dalinar’s soul slipped away from him. Stretched. And vanished into the Beyond.” Seems pretty cut and dry to me, honestly. I believe Brandon has firmly refused to answer questions about whether there is another being besides Adonalsium in the Beyond because he wants each reader to come to their own spiritual conclusions- but we do know that Dalinar believed there was, and chose to give his soul to that being and place.

Or, Dalinar shouting about unity amid a rush of tremendous power scared Rayse into thinking Adonalsium had reformed - “we killed you” may reference the Shattering.

Dalinar went to the Beyond - we see this happening. He’s gone gone. Blackthorn seems like a strange spiritual doppleganger and I’m curious to see how he develops. The “claimed by another” is likely a reference to Dalinar’s belief in a God Beyond. As he states in the ch 77 epigraph, "But I will say that for me, the existence of something that cares—and can, after death, make up for injustices in life—is not the question. But the answer."

Unless the people transporting it just open the tops off their wagons every night and pray to Retribution to have it refilled?

Re: Dalinar - there’s a WoB somewhere where Brandon says he’s trying to come up with a way to signify to readers that a character is really, truly, no-tricks dead, and I think that’s what we are supposed to gather from him warping and passing into the Beyond. It’s the same visual we got for Vin and Elend. I don’t think he was claimed by any other shard, but by the Beyond itself (whatever may happen to be there).

I hope this means we got a recap of Jerick’s story already so maybe he won’t feature in the real Dragonsteel when we get there.

I’d throw Cultivation in with Change, personally. And maybe Endowment, Ambition and Ruin.

I can’t decide if Jezrien was more insane than the others or just more drunk.

Sounds like the ecosystem will function with Warlight, but it gives Retribution a very firm hold over the populations - keep following directions and they can have enough light to feed themselves. But if they don’t, their access to light gets cut off. I imagine this will be a major plotline/source of conflict for the listener nation in the next arc especially. I’m not sure how much Retribution cares about the ecosystem outside of how he can use it to manipulate the people living on it.