Elder

I’m kinda wondering about “the Night.” Assuming it’s not Sja-Anat (or maybe even if it is), I wonder if Cryptics and/or Inkspren might not be somewhat related to The Night. There needs to be a Truth/Knowledge god/shard. Seems like it would be a Shard, but not necessarily.

K, part of the problem here is that Taravangian the divided one is what he calls himself to distinguish himself from Odium, the power that he carries: Unlike literally every other Shard we’ve met (with the brief exceptions of Kelsier and Vin), he hasn’t integrated himself with the Shard yet. The Ddvided one can’t represent the nature of Odium if it’s his way of defying his union with Odium. It goes to show that his Bond with the Shard isn’t all that solid… yet. And as such, it may be easier to mess with it. Maybe giving him the Shard of Honor will be the key to him losing the power, as the combined shard will be even less attuned to the terrible man that Taravangian is. Honor may or may not completely accept Dalinar. Odium loves the passionate Taravangian. But if the Shard is something different, and given that Taravangian hasn’t fully embraced his Shard, changing its nature may cause him to lose his tenuous grip.

He still regards himself as “The Divided One.” But you may be right about him needing the entire Shard of Honor to heal that division. we can guess that Dalinar’s going to do something crazy on top of Urithiru just from the cover art. I think taking Honor, not for himself, but to heal both Odium and Taravangian, possibly binding Odium with Honor by tricking him into taking more power (Rayse would never want that, But Taravangian might be less adverse… or naive about what 2 shards with one vessel means). Also having his thinking and feeling reunited might compromise him…. Paralyze him with regret and restraint…. Maybe. Though I doubt Honor’s intent would accept Taravangian willingly….

I suppose it really depends on what a Bondsmith unchained is truly capable of. Whether or not Dalinar takes up the power of Honor for himself, could Dalinar, as Bondsmith Unchained, bind some moderating factors to Odium, with or without Odium’s consent? Or….. could Dalinar, as a Bondsmith, rebind Taravangian, the Divided One? Make it so that the part that feels and the part that thinks are actually the same person? It appears ascension hasn’t unified Teravangian as a person… though it has changed the nature of the conflict.

Thank you. may I suggest that how well they are upholding their word is more of a personal issue. That and we really don’t know how it went down. Odium can look at any of them who settled together, consider that they didn’t follow the agreement and use his righteous anger to fuel/help him align with his own power. Honor can have been present when the agreement was made. If it’s a wording issue, where they agreed not to interfere with one another, his wife invites him to her world and he accepts. Therefore no rules broken. No interference involved. Doesn’t stop Odium from getting fuel from his own anger.

Good point with the WoB on the other shard and how seriously the other shards took the agreement. Worth pointing out, 5/6 of those shards died. The 6th has been hiding. I’m not saying they’re complete oathbreakers who deserved what they got. But, Odium had enough of an advantage to take on 2 of them at once. We don’t necessarily know how…. But maybe deviance from this lesser agreement (or accepted suggestion even) gave them enough of a disadvantage to be exploited

Maybe, but Wit makes that distinction pointing out that even breaking an informal promise carries dire consequences. Though, in the interludes, Cultivation does point out that formal oaths are particularly binding, so you may be right. I think it more likely that we’re seeing what we’ve already seen with Rashek, Vin and even Sazed: gods make mistakes with their powers early on. Moreso, I think that Tarevangian is being particularly reckless with his power. He is fighting to not become Odium, to not become fully integrated with it, perhaps not completely bound by it. Which I think is why he feels he can play fast and loose with the rules. Which may be the fatal flaw in his plan. If Tarevangian doesn’t fully integrate with his power, someone like Dalinar, Adolin, or even Kaladin, Szeth or Moash could take it from him, being more attuned to Odium. It wouldn’t be easy, but I think he’s leaving himself vulnerable.

I’m hanging up on Tarevangian’s exploitation of loopholes. Wit says Rayse wouldn’t and couldn’t because he promised not to. Shouldn’t Tarevangian still be bound by that? Or is Tarevangian just too new to be afraid of the “dire consequences”? Like Vin, able to overcome Preservations Intent and kill Ati by virtue of being new to her power? Or is he counting on the dire consequences? Does Tarevangian not necessarily care if he survives this (which would make him even more like Vin)?

Depends on how much of Nale’s Murder Spree was Ishar’s Idea. We know it was based on his advice. The question is whether Nale’s the one who decided that the neophyte Radiants all had to die. That said, Ishar did become Tezim right around when Gavilar died. I’d assume his mad science experiments on Spren started after that point, since the Tukari are the ones abducting Spren from Shadesmar.

Quick question on the subject: has Brandon said anything about where Honorblades go when they’re dismissed? Living Shardblades: are Spren who exist (barely) in the Physical Realm, moving freely within a certain radius of their Shardbearers Deadeye Shardblades: return to the Cognitive Realm as Deadeye Spren, where they shadow the movements of their Shard-bearers. so do the Honor blades transform? Do they go into one realm or another?

There’s a problem with your timeline: trade and communication has been cut off with Shinovar in Rhythm of War… but Ishar has his honor blade at this point and has responded to the unmade being there. Based on your earlier quote, wouldn’t that indicate that their hostility is more a product of Ishar (who is certainly Hostile to Dalinar and his coalition) coming than the Unmade? Either way, it upholds your timeline, albeit there’s still a fair amount we don’t know. Probably will be fleshed out in the RPG. Edit: thinking about it, it throws a lot of questions into the timeline. Main question in my head: which came first? Shinovar’s weird congratulations? Or Tezim’s unhinged letter denouncing Dalinar’s taking of Urithiru. A whole can happen. Either way, given that Kaladin’s going to Shinovar for Ishar, I’d contend their hostility is more a product of Ishar than of the Unmade. Tendency towards homicide (including becoming a serial killer, leading a “holy” war, and the murder of Spren for science) is kinda a big deal. It’s the difference between letting the mentally ill maintain their freedom (whether at home or on the street) and committing them to a padded room. Those two are clearly a danger to themselves and/or others. None of the others are that I’m aware. Kinda my point: breaking that Connection would hurt them. I imagine breaking any connection is pretty damaging, but especially for cognitive beings. Yes, they were showing signs before they broke the Oathpact. Like I already said: I’m not saying it’s the original source of the madness. Time and Torture certainly took their toll. I’m suggesting ditching the blades aggravated it. Please register that this time. as for Ishar’s power… an awful lot we don’t know there. I’m comfortable speculating where I don’t know. You clearly aren’t.

Well, I mean it never could be one to one, given that there’s one more Herald/Radiant order than there is Unmade…. Lining them up, you could put those 9 in between the 10, depending on how you arranged it (visualizing in my head). I suppose the question is: is Connection tied solely to Adhesion, the surge Odium’s forces have no access to? Or could it be manipulated by other surges, (like Cohesion, Division, etc). more likely, at least some of the unmade and their voidbinding isn’t necessarily tied to surge binding. Odium develops Connection despite his lack of Adhesion.

Were they that open? My impression was that unless they trusted you, you weren’t getting very far. I could be wrong. I would argue that Nale and Ishar are worse than the other heralds. I’d argue that becoming a serial killer or a God King over a holy war is considerably worse than decision paralysis or compulsory vandalism. Just sayin’. Though Kalak’s affiliation with the sons of honor might prove me wrong, depending on how much of their crap was on him and how much was on its members (like Amaram). As for the Honor Blades, maybe it’s a bit less about a magical link to the Oathpact and a bit more about the Blades Connection to the Heralds themselves. My entire premise here is that those Blades are Spiritually connected to the Heralds and their Identity, being tied to their greatest virtues. Leaving them behind may mean leaving behind some of the best parts of themselves. One other thing about Ishar…. Wasn’t he a powerful surgebinder before he was given his Honor Blade?

Szeth’s knowledge is dated to some undefined point before Gavilar’s assassination, so therefore not enough to go on. While Rysn’s experience trading with the Shin in their border regions is a fair point, I wouldn’t call it definitive and I don’t think vague and cryptic (adj., not Spren) spanread messages are at all convincing evidence that all was well in Shinovar. As for the Heralds, I’m fully aware that their longevity and the torture was wearing on them long before they abandoned the Oathpact, and already acknowledged as much in my post. I still think that they may have aggravated their conditions every time they compromised the Oathpact, especially when they abandoned it, and that reclaiming their blades without addressing their problems probably made both Nale and Ishar worse. Regarding the Radiants before and during the Recreane, I do believe a huge difference that’s been repeatedly brought up is that up until that point, Honor was there to check the power of the Radiants. After his death, it stands to reason that Nale and Ishar might have taken to regulating in their own insane way. And yes, the main part of the danger would be Radiants creating that bridge. As for the Heralds being Cognitive Shadows without their Blades… of course. And Kelsier was still a cognitive Shadow after he was released from the Well of Ascension. Vin could have been, despite Sazed holding the power. Having been bonded to the Investiture expands the mind and soul enough, whether you keep the power or not.

I have a theory about a magical factor of their madness. It has to do with their honor blades. 1. The Honor Blades each represent enough Investiture to make the Heralds something to the effect of a cognitive shadow, even an Avatar of Honor in his various aspects. 2. That Investiture has Intent, but since it was given to them as swords (weapons/tools) that Intent is not going to override their own. It was given in such a way so as to match the best aspects of themselves. It still is bonded to them. Indeed, you could say it has become part of them, merging with the best parts of them. 3. Whenever they “bent their oaths” and allowed the Fused through, they became less of themselves. Their bond with their Blades - with the best aspects of themselves as well as with Honor, was weakened, Cognitive/Spiritual Dissonance introduced and reinforced in their minds. 4. When they gave up the Honor Blades, they left the best parts of themselves in those swords, making them considerably worse. Similar Spiritual damage to a Nalthian giving up all breath, except on a divine scale. 5. When Nale and Ishar reclaimed their Honor Blades, they were so far removed from the best parts of themselves that the Cognitive/Dissonance aggravated, resulting in murder sprees, holy wars, etc. Anyway, back on topic, I’m reasonably sure Radiant is still a creation of Shallan, a lie, a coping mechanism to help her cover up how she hated her Shard Blade. The previous lie is exposed. She doesn’t hate Pattern. She does have issues with Testament, and believes Testament should hate her. Radiant will be resolved when Shallan reconciles with Testament. Hopefully that will involve Testamemt healing.

Do we actually have a timeline on when honor blades were reclaimed by Ishar or Nale? Or when Nale started executing radiants? the latter event may be an (extreme) extension of the Recreance: Surgebinding was deemed too dangerous, and evidently willfully severing the bond with the Spren was catastrophic to the Spren…. So kill the would be surge binder first. Not saying it’s right or sane, but there is something to it. I do have a thought on a factor that may be aggravating the Heralds mental illness. It involves their honor blades. The Honor Blades each constitute significant investiture, to the point of transforming the Heralds into cognitive shadows, or Avatars of Honor. I wonder, therefore, if the bond between themselves and the Blades wouldn’t go both ways, and abandoning the blades wouldn’t do a certain amount of Spiritual Damage, similar to giving up Breath. I don’t necessarily believe that recovering their blades would heal them as a. There is already significant damage from extended life and torture b. They are no longer the same people who took up the blades. As such, reclaiming the blade may actually cause a certain amount of cognitive dissonance. Perhaps reclaiming the blades made both Nale and Ishar worse. Also, I wonder if their madness, and the cognitive dissonance with their Blades, didn’t start when they started “bending their oath.” Every time they failed and let a Desolation squeak through, they became a little bit less of the Herald they were meant to be. Their intent and the intent of their power misaligning.

How long has Ishar been Tezim? As I understand it (and I invite correction) the dispute between Emul and Tukar has been going on for ages, but was aggravated by the rise of Tezim, right around the time Gavilar died. I’m not certain whether I buy the Stormfaker theory or not, but I can see a scenario where Ishar, frustrated with Gavilar’s failure, particularly due to his religion, would resort to starting his own religion, and eventually was consumed by it. We’re dealing with people who may not make rational choices here, so it’s difficult to discern their actions. But I can see it.

Odium also mentions that Dalinar is the very first to Bond the Stormfather “in his current state” as the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast/Honor (honestly not sure which remnant is more significant an influence on him). The Stormfather was a significantly different Spren for other Bondsmiths, but the implication is there were others. This does make a difference, though I don’t believe it’s been fully explored. also, iirc, Dalinar is the first to be in a relationship with the Sibling’s Bondsmith. Previous Stormfather Bondsmiths had relationships with the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmiths (on a side note, doing this post on the phone, I really wanted to do abbreviations, but Bondsmith really doesn’t abbreviate well lol). What I do think they’re setting up is for the Stormfather to be lost as part of the reconstitution of Honor, possibly as Honor, or as War (Honor/Odium) or as Unity (all 3, much more preferable), and the Wind will take the Stormfather’s place as a Bondsmith Spren, though if it vanishes permanently, I’m definitely wrong. Find out soon.

Also makes me wonder abit more about Stone Shamanism.

So the Aethers claim. That claim is disputed. I’m not prepared to take a side on that. Nor is Hoid omniscient. Perhaps he’s not completely correct (or honest) in the origin of The Wind? We don’t know enough about any of this to speak definitively. And what is the bud of Wind? We don’t know that he doesn’t have one. We don’t know that there aren’t multiple ways of interacting with Aethers. again, we don’t know enough… yet. It will be fun to find out.

If the wind is vanishing… I mean that is ecological upheaval anywhere, but especially in Roshar.

Thinking about this, there’s a fair amount in play here. Spren, as well as Old Magic Gods like The Wind and the Nightwatcher, predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. The Shards of Honor, Cultivation and Eventually Odium came, and Changed many of the Spren, including specifically the Nightwatcher (who, in her distribution of boons, definitely has learned from her Draconic “Mother”). It stands to reason that the other Spren “Children ” of the Shards were of similar make, Honor having converted the Stormfather (though the Stormfather being Tanavast’s cognitive shadow further muddies it), and both having changed Ur into Urithiru, or, the Sibling. Odium may have used similar Primordial Spren for his unmade. It’s quite possible one or more of the Dawnshards was used for this purpose, Change being an obvious contender. As long as we’re talking about ancient powers that at least predate the Shattering of Adonalsium, we can’t forget the Primal Aethers. The Wind may be a manifestation of the Zephyr Aether. Re Shephir could be a manifestation of the Midnight Aether.

This is all swirling into a unifying theory for me…. It will be interesting to see how far off I am in December. This probably isn’t the place for the whole thing but… I do like the idea of particular Polestones being used for particular unmade. So my question is: Was Re Shephir bound in a Garnet… or something else.

What if “Truth” is a Dawnshard, similar to Change

Would Wit encourage Kaladin into diving in with an unmade? Not sure. The more I think about it, the more I think this may be a/the Zephyr Primal Aether. Predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. Tied to wind/air. Granted, that’s all we know about this. At least some of the unmade may also be similar. Thinking of Re Shephir. good catch… actually, that’s probably why all the magic there is metal based. God metals are actually part of them. There is no other native magic to mix with theirs, give it alternative manifestations.