Trusk'our

Excellent. I always love it when a new person joins the community in a more expansive way . By the way, how far are you in Wax and Wayne yet (personally, it's my favorite series of books)?

Yeah, it's called unchained Bondsmithing I'm sure that there are other ways, but as of right I only know of Hemalurgy and Bondsmithing powers being able to pull of this feat. Also, F-duralumin may be able to help with this situation (yes, even against a Bondsmith), as you could just store the Connection away. Thank you! I'd be honored to share my opinions and insights should such a thing come around.

True, but location is still a viable factor, so there's a good chance it could work. I should think so, yes. They could probably just remove the spike (unless it's in a fatal location, such as the heart) to escape though. Lol, exactly

Do you mean to bind them to a specific location in the CR? If so, yes- any Connection to a location or entity will trap you there or with them if it is strong enough, so spiking some Connection to a location into their system would do the trick. Yumi spoilers;

Ah, so you saw that one too. I found it a few days ago while trying to find some quote I remember vaguely that talked about Marsh having enough spikes to have his soul pinned to his body in such as way that he's more resistant to dying via lose of a Linchpin spike for a completely different topic (still haven't found it). But yeah, it's pretty neat. As @Frustration mentioned, Kelsier's situation is a bit different; he has a physical body that he's been stapled to rather than being drawn into the PR by the spike itself (in fact, I suspect what the WoB says can be done with Unmade is what has already been done with Kel). This thing you can do with the Unmade is probably similar to how Ishar is experimenting with bringing Spren into the PR, probably by Connecting them to the PR and they automatically create bodies for themselves (which is probably how the Heralds themselves reincarnate- and probably where he got the idea from). Yes, it is. Yes, it is Almost certainly; a Deadeye seems to be the way it is because certain parts of the Spiritweb have been removed- Spiking a Spren in the right way would do just that (and probably worse, as it might take more from them). So, if you really want to eliminate the Unmade from the scene, just spike them with a big ol' chunk of nicrosil (or maybe duralumin) and reduce them to a barely functional Deadeye. Brutal, but effective. In fact, I think that you could turn a Listener or a Singer into Slaveform with H-duralumin by spiking their Connection and Identity out- the Everstorm healed that for the Singers, so reversing the process is likely possible. It would probably be evil, but technically could be done. How much damage would it do to Roshar? Well, the Highstorm is what keeps the planet alive (supplies fresh crem for the ecosystem, brings water, and generates the planet's magnetic field), so locking the Stormfather to one location would probably spell the doom of the planet unless Cultivation took direct action (or unless a really cool plot sequence came to fruition). It might end up being somewhat like how BAM's imprisonment hurt all of Roshar, but that severed all the Connections tied to her rather than causing a physical catastrophe, so the situation might just be different though, as you're not necessarily severing the Stormfather's Connections, you'd just be giving him a new one (I think). But yeah, it would probably kill everybody . Does this mean I'm unofficially the 17th Shard's expert on Hemalurgy now?

The difference is that Surgebinding Savantism is explicitly stated as being different from normal forms of Savantism- the Bond somehow changes how it manifests in a Surgebinder and reduces the negative consequences (i.e., not turning into the essences the Radiant Soulcasts). We have received no such WoBs saying Hemalurgy protects its user from Savantism the same way, and the way the WoB that says you can become a Savant through Hemalurgic powers makes me believe that Hemalurgy Savantism is the same as regular Allomantic Savantism (that is an interpretation on my part though, and I admit that I could be jumping to conclusions). It would be pretty interesting if Hemalurgy did protect you from the worst of Savantism though. That might be another perk to Hemalurgic spikes if it's true. And yet it's still not the same a Radiant Bond. I'm honestly not sure how it works. Maybe because a Spren's nature is already close to the essence of the Surges wielded by their Radiant, making the Connections between their Spiritwebs adapt the Radiant's Spiritweb as a whole to better handle the Investiture they use. That's just a guess though. All I know for certain is that an Allomancer's Connection to Preservation and a Surgebinder's Bond aren't the same because the information we currently have says they aren't. I know what you were trying to say, I simply disagree with it; Cosmere wide effects and magics often work under the same mechanics, such as multiple forms of Lightweaving, Awakening, Bonds, etc. I'm not convinced that Allomancers or Hemalurgists wielding grafted Allomancy do Bond with their Investiture though (under normal circumstances); the information we have just doesn't support that, even though it seems like it would make sense at first glance. We need more information to know why this is the case, but from what I can tell it is the case. You can take Bonds with Hemalurgic spikes, such as from Radiants or Aviar, so Bonding another spike doesn't seem too far-fetched. Perhaps Hemalurgic spikes work differently than a piece of Spiritweb being part of the rest or acting as a Bond- maybe they count in some ways as being a part of your Spiritweb, but are still somewhat separate. That would explain why you don't pass down the Allomantic or Feruchemical powers you get from Hemalurgy and why it is still possible to take functional Bonds from other entities.

Would it not normally be more akin to how Allomancy is part of your Spiritweb? Especially considering the fact that you can become a Savant via Hemalurgically stolen powers as you could with normal Allomancy, but Surgebinding Bonds protect the Radiant from the worst of the side effects of Savantism. So, under this categorization, Hemalurgically stolen powers couldn't count as Bonds normally- you'd need to do something else to make it count as a Bond.

True, most Bindpoints probably won't match. This hypothesis works under the assumption that there are at least some Bindpoints that work in a more universal manner (for a single Hemalurgic quadrant of powers that is), allowing for powers to be traded out, but that hasn't been confirmed to work yet. Another fair point, but the best constructs are at least close to human intelligence, such as the Chimera or Koloss. They could probably change back if they wanted to and had been trained correctly, I would think. If mental capacity to change back is still lacking in the form granted by the spike(s), you could have a more regulated change, such as programming into the spike "change on command (via Intent), automatically suppress change after X amount of time has passed" to give you time to get to safety or eliminate the threat at large, but without the danger of trapping you in the new form. Nice catch. I hadn't noticed that as I came up with this idea, but yeah, that makes sense. As for the ten-spike idea, I think that could work if you didn't care too much about opening yourself up to outside influences. Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just not too fond of having a blatant weakness in my. . . work, I guess? I'd much rather fix the problems as they come than to jump forward more quickly only to have to back pedal when flaws in the system become exploited. And even if not many beings can or would seek to control someone using their Flaw, I'd say it would be better safe than sorry.

It is possible to Bond certain Awakened objects, such as Nightblood, to obtain more effects from them. I think that it would be possible then to form a Bond with a Hemalurgic spike that was Invested enough, had the correct Spiritweb fragments spliced into it, and perhaps that had the correct Command. This could be interesting, as the Bindpoint you place the spike in wouldn't matter so much- the Bond is what would transfer the use of powers to the Hemalurgist, not the Bindpoint hotwiring itself. This might, then, be another way to gain access to more than one power with only one spike. Basically, it's like making an artificial version of Yelig-nar, but reigned in with better Commands (hopefully. Playing with such powers is probably going to have complications at some point or another). Plus, you probably wouldn't have to bear the spike yourself, just have it nearby to gain access to its powers.

I have a few more ideas for the use of Hemalurgic Commands. 1. What if you were to put multiple powers of the same Hemalurgic spike that have conflicting Identities, but you use a specialized Command to have the powers inside swap when given a mental trigger. You'd have the ability to use only one of the powers contained in the spike at a time, but you could swap the powers at will (and if A-Bendalloy is any indication for balancing purposes, it may take a second or two for the swap to work). This would be less powerful than if you were to strip the Identities of the powers in the spike, but perhaps it would be another way to bypass such a limitation. 2. What if you gave yourself or someone else an attribute bearing spike that transformed you into another creature, but you placed a Command on the spike to suppress all benefits of the spike at will or under certain circumstances? I could see this as a way for humans to undergo limited physical and psychological transformations. Basically, werewolves in Mistborn (especially if you have a timed Command rather than an at-will Command. Sync it up with the full moon, and bam, you got that aspect of it too). I doubt that you could remove the holes in the Spiritweb caused by the spike by suppressing the attributes or powers (not without reversing the warping that keeps you alive anyway), but I think it's reasonable to have transformations be on the table.

Oh, absolutely. There are so many different ways for the system to be used by a Big Bad Evil Guy, especially since there is an information limitation attached to its use; you can have one villain only know how to steal powers, for example, while you have another villain create and control Koloss brutes, and yet another villain could learn to steal skills from highly talented individuals for roughish purposes. I do think it would be cool to see Hemalurgy being used more extensively by a main character though, in more of a heroic fashion than a purely evil one. That's definitely harder to do, but it could make for a really interesting story.

Didn't she Awaken two-thousand bronze soldiers? The way Hoid mentions it in the story makes it sound like it was done with actual Breath rather than a hack of AonDor. Plus, she's using the Midnight spores to create and control many monstrous creatures.

We actually had a thread on this not too long ago that talked about the possibility of using wires as Hemalurgic spikes. If it did work and you made a "spike" that pierced two people simultaneously, you'd have to consider that they wouldn't both be able to use it at 100% power since the Investiture would be divided among multiple people. Connecting the two people's Spiritwebs would be a natural effect as well, but it would be difficult to find use for in many cases, as it would require a physical wire to connect the two people. There probably are still some interesting shenanigans that could happen there though- I just haven't thought about that particular use too much.

That's an interesting scenario. I'd say the stolen nobleman's Destiney would be weaker than your own, but it will affect your character's gut decision making, conflicting with it in a negative manner. You may just end up being unable to make decisions in either direction effectively. It's also possible that the two Destinies will come to some form of consensus, fulfilling parts of both but not the whole of either. This scenario seems the most likely to me.

Yup, which makes it stand to reason that making said Feruchemy stronger would make it more efficient. This also may be the way it works with Allomancers in addition to them drawing more Investiture: SA spoilers: EDIT: @Alumínio, I'd say it would be possible to do this if it is an actual form of leakage, but I think that the leaky hose analogy is just to help solidify the concept of Hemalurgic inefficiency. The Investiture all gets used up in the form of whatever power is being used, it just doesn't do its job as well as it could. If the Investiture does leak, there's at least one thing you could do. White Sand spoilers:

For a while, I've thought about Awakening a Hemalurgic spike to copy and augment the Investiture it contains, though Awakening something like that and plugging it into your soul would potentially have the downside of it gaining an awareness and controlling you. But what if you were to take this weakness and turn it into another strength? Let's say you find a way to match the Identity of the spike to your own (perhaps spiking yourself to charge it in the first place, then healing it with F-gold). Then you supercharge it with Awakening, and give it a Command to mimic the power of the spike and to become one with you. Basically, the idea is that the Investiture of the spike will gain a mind of its own, but it will be guided to act as an extension of your mind instead of becoming a separate personality. The spike has the same Identity as you and is plugged directly into your Spiritweb, allowing the two to interact as one. The spike's section of mind could be directed to focus on other tasks to free up your own innate mind to do as you please. The spike could watch for enemies, make calculations for you, or keep track of certain patterns. The expansion of mind may only stay as long as you're not actively using the powers of the spike though, as we see with Nightblood that when an Awakened object's Investiture gets activated its higher cognition takes a backseat: Still, it would be a nice benefit to obtain.

I had been wondering how the weakening of Feruchemy worked for Hemalurgy for a while, whether the Hemalurgic Feruchemist could store less of an attribute or whether the taping was simply less effective. Well, I just found a WoB that tells us: It's an efficiency deal, meaning that a Feruchemist who gained their powers via Hemalurgy would store the same amount of Investiture as another Feruchemist, they just get less effect out of what they tap. Maybe not a big deal to some, but this answers a few questions for me and I thought it worth sharing.

My current hypothesis for Destiny is that it is a person's own sense of Fortune that is filtered through their own Spiritweb. Basically, if you tap Fortune as a Feruchemist, you increase your own Fortune and Destiny, allowing you to more easily sense certain things in a precognitive manner, things that you would already have sensed, though it would have been weaker and possibly ignored without the use of Feruchemy. Another Feruchemist doing the same would sense different things, as their own Destiny is different. A Hemalurgist who stole someone else's Destiny with a H-chromium spike would get the impulses and impressions that the Donor would have received, but since Hemalurgy grants a weakened version of what was taken and because the Hemalurgist has their own conflicting Destiny, they don't necessarily get the effects that Destiny would bring, hence the reason the Hemalurgy table says it might steal Destiny. This is all purely speculative on my part though, so take it with a grain of salt.

@alder24 makes some good points; first, that being able to Invest yourself more with general Investiture can make you more resistant to other forms of Investiture, it could potentially make you into a Cognitive Shadow, and maybe it could take Savantism because it seems to take a larger chunk of the Spiritweb. This just occurred to me, but if Savantism is on the table for Hemalurgic nicrosil (which admittedly is pure conjecture at this point in time) then Resonances could possibly be available too. If you can take multiple power's worth of Invesiture in such a spike, Resonances could potentially be caught and transferred with it to the Hemalurgist. This might seem a small boon when compared to the loss of the powers themselves, but if you found a way to increase the Investiture of the spikes you could get a stronger, more pronounced Resonance, which would be a power in and of itself. Warbreaker spoilers:

Excellent. It's great to know somebody loves to read my pseudo-insane ramblings. Thanks for recognizing me Okay, let me try to clarify what you're proposing- you're saying that if you have two people with very similar Connections (not really Identities, as those are supposed to be more or less completely unique unless some artificial tampering comes into play) you could try to merge or overlap their Spiritwebs in such a way that they would gain a hive mind, or perhaps be able to share their other powers with each other in a Spren to Radiant fashion? This is an interesting idea, and I think that it may be able to work with the right tweaking. Basically, I think that you'd need something like a Luhel Bond forged between the two individuals to share powers, as Hemalurgic spikes hold their Investiture in the Physical Realm (another, more spiritual bond may also work, and perhaps that would instead be the way to go. I'm not totally certain which one would work better for this particular purpose, though Nahel Bond seems to work better with Cognitive entities such as Spren, so Luhel may be better in this circumstance). This could be accomplished with a duralumin Hemalurgic spike or perhaps another spike that contained enough Connection to both individuals. Extra Connections between the two Hemlalurgists in question wouldn't strictly be necessary from what I can tell, but it might make any shared powers more effective between the two, similar to Kaladin's embodiment of Honor's ideals gave him more Connection to that Shard, thus making his powers slightly stronger than other Radiants of his Oath: As for the hive mind, yes, I think that something like that would also be possible via Hemalurgy. I think that an actual full-blown hive mind would be somewhat difficult to accomplish, as you'd need to meddle with Identity, Connection, and probably memory to an extent as well. A web of telepathic/empathic communication would be far easier to achieve. We've actually seen something like this already in TLM- Telsin was able to communicate telepathically with those pierced by Trellium spikes, and Bleeder was able to project her mind into Wax's in SoS (which she most likely did with her Trellium spike), meaning that Hemalurgy is capable of at least those specific feats, and more should be possible with more expertise. As for the Hemalurgic failure, do you mean using two people with the same Identity to overcome Hemalurgy's newest limitation that prevents Compounding? If so, technically yes, it would be possible, but getting two people with the same exact spiritual Identity is going to be more or less functionally impossible without a sapient being's interferance: Having a spike and a bearer with similar Identities may make the power it brings slightly more efficient, but I doubt it would allow for actual Compounding- to get that to work you would most likely either need to find a way to return to Hemalurgy's more aggressive roots to force the Spiritwebs to work together, or you'd need to either Blank the Identity of the spike, or find a way to imprint the Hemalurgist's own Identity onto said spike. All in all, I think these are some great ideas and I enjoyed reading about and responding to them

I just thought of this a little earlier, but if a skilled Sandmaster were to learn Hemalurgy, they could be very dangerous; they could use their ribbons of sand to wield spikes to stab with great speed and precision (from a relatively safe distance) and charge those spikes, allowing them to cause spiritual injuries to opponents and to simultaneously charge their spikes for personal use. Very powerful combo.

I don't know if that would work quite the way you suggest, or at least the way you word it; the reason you can use a Hemalurgic spike the way you can (despite an Identity incongruency between the spike and that of the spike's bearer) is because Hemalurgic spikes force themselves to work- they violently attach themselves into your Spiritual Aspect via the Physical Aspect (basically, Invested metals in the PR piercing the body to access your Spiritweb in the SR), which causes a tear in the Spiritweb to occur as a natural side effect. A Linchpin spike seems to function by being able to coordinate the other spikes, preventing the Spiritweb from collapsing, but it does not actually reduce the damage to the Spiritweb- It just stitches the whole Spiritweb together to prevent it from imploding. A highly specialized Command on the spike may be able to seal the Spiritweb's cracks, but it would be difficult because it would go against Ruin's Intent. Another, perhaps more likely possibility is that if you were to dull the spike's "aggression" that it would cause less damage to the Spiritweb and create less of a hole for external Investitures to enter. The only downside of this method is that it would be likely weaken the spike's overall versatility and potency- basically, I think it would be like how modern era 2 Hemalurgy is now weaker than era 1 Hemalurgy (no Compounding and no more than five spikes that a human can bear at any given time), but more extreme.

Awesome, I love it when new people join the Shard! Welcome Oh, yeah, you definitely have to be worried about that if you look in the wrong forum. Just make sure to carefully read the forum heading before you enter it and to be careful when reading people's posts on the forum's surface; they aren't typically spoiler free, so it's best to be safe rather than sorry. However, if you have read a series (such as White Sand) you can still enjoy reading and interacting in that forum without fear of spoilers occurring outside that particular series. Hope you enjoy your time here, and I hope to see you out in the forums soon!

Nice to meet you! Tell me traveler, of all the worlds you've visited, which one would you be most likely to stay at?

Hmm, perhaps that could work. They might need to worry about the spike causing them pain by being misplaced by doing that though. But perhaps not- maybe that kind of pain only happens if placed in a Bindpoint that's incorrect and not just anywhere in the body will cause it.