Vessel of Theory

@Vapor's got a point.

As am I. Is anyone else present?

Okay, y'all, here's my final thoughts on this. I don't want to have a big 'ol argument, so thanks @Eri for the thread link. As Taravangian so helpfully demonstrated, to embrace a Shard you have to understand it. There are numerous examples of people acting in accordance with ech of the Shards' Intents, but IMO, Adolin's experiences are the most impactful. While it's true that he killed Sadeas, which may or may not fit under Odium, he certainly tried not to. He did everything he could as a human being to respect Honor(law, oaths, etc). He failed in the end, but failure teaches. He may have acted out in passionate anger, which is why I listed this under Odium, but it does not, IMO, negate his attempt at following the path of Honor. I'm not saying I believe this will happen, just that I hope it will. I think there's evidence to support it, but in the end, I doubt I'll predict Sanderson's decision. I'd be saying this no matter what, just because I'm not one of those Shards with futuresight, unfortunately. To summarize: I believe that Adolin has embodied and will continue to embody each of the Rosharan Shards, and because of this, I believe that Adolin understands and is the best candidate for said Shards. It makes me very happy to see that people care about Adolin, even though he didn't get to do much in RoW Keep on theorizing, everyone. Here's a smiley for a kinda long post

Sure, that's great, but why? Is the reasoning for Dalinar/Kaladin/Thaidakar better than the reasoning for Adolin? TBH, I just wanna know the reasoning. Mmm, tasty theories. I'd be very unhappy if Adolin dies. I could see it happening, yes. However, Renarin is already making his entrance, really stepping into his own, as a Truthwatcher that the mistspren listen to. Also, the seeing the future. Also, the clouding Odium's sight of those near him. Very useful things indeed. I picture more of a scenario where Shallan(and maybe Adolin) kinda go off to do their own thing(important, of course, but not on the current plot path), while all/most of our other MCs do the main plot thing, whatever it is at that time. I guess I just like Adolin, and the Adolin + Shallan dynamic, and don't want that to go away.

That's air, I suppose. We agree, though, that Dalinar wishes Adolin was a Radiant? Anyway, that passage was more included because it made me unhappy. I can look at it another way now, so thanks

Sorry for another thread about the Unmade, especially theory, because I know we have WAAAAAY too many of those lying around the Shard. However, a passage in RoW got me thinking about them again, when I had solemnly vowed(okay, I hadn't) to stop with the outlandish Unmade theories. The passage I'm thinking of is when Raboniel is taking Urithiru, and "corrupting" the Sibling. Here's the passage(I actually went back and found it! wow!): "You must move quickly, the Sibling repeated. The Lady of Pains has the Surge of Transformation and dangerous knowledge. She will infuse my entire heart - the pillar - in the proper order, using her Voidlight. In so doing, she would corrupt me and leave me... leave me as one of the Unmade..."(Chapter 42, pg 526 in full size hardcover version) As I see it, this passage could mean any of several things. It could be that Unmade is simply an adjective or title for spren who have been turned from their original Connection. It could be that Re-Shephir's spren are Unmade, but not the Unmade, if you know what I'm saying. Or, it could mean that the Unmade are corrupted Bondsmith spren, like the Sibling. My final theory is that the Unmade are sapient(wise, typ. Radiant) spren of distinguishment. Lemme know what y'all think!

Journey before destination, y'all

Thanks! I'll look into making better rhymes

Thanks for making this, @Nathrangking! Looking forward to seeing what people write Okay, here goes... please be gentle, never done this before. I can answer any questions about context, if that's an issue. My apologies, the title is "Reach Song". Probably important

I didn't see a very direct answer, or at least one that I agreed with, so here goes. Thaidakar is not the deity, nor religious figure, of the Ghostbloods. He is a Cognitive Shadow, and the Ghostbloods, as Worldhoppers and people who are at least partially Cosmere-aware know the difference between that and a Shard, or Adonalsium, or the God Beyond, etc. The Fused are Cognitive Shadows, just like the Heralds(were?). Additionally, if Thaidakar is who we believe him to be, we cannot truly claim that he "likes to have people worshiping him". His goal was to kill the Lord Ruler, and maybe all of the lighteyes nobility. He knew that his plan might not work, so he made another one that wouldn't contradict his original - do things, tricky things, to get people to make a religion out of him. He did it out of necessity, not desire for worship. Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.

Okay, just to have the debate, I'm gonna say something. But first, just to clarify, I very much do not like Odium's Intent. It seems to me that, unbridled and unchecked, it cannot be wielded without disastrous effect on the Cosmere. Whether or not the passion is intended for good or evil, decimation will come of it in the end. The Fused say, repeatedly, that Odium is not hate but passion. Hate is but one of Odium's many facets, as it is passionate anger(might be the wrong emotion, but I'm not trying to be spot-on here, just provide example). It's nice to connect hate with murder, but, as we saw with Ruin and Preservation, one Shard is only stronger than another if they are less Invested into a particular place. Odium has been Investing plenty of things, and so have the other Shards, so it's hard to say whether Rayse's finished rampage through the other Shards is due to distraction or simple incompetence. We hear over and over again from everyone who knew Rayse that he wasn't the smartest. Someone with poor logical habits would be particularly susceptible, IMO, to rash actions, such as breaking peace and fighting the only other things that could kill you. But back to the discussion at hand. If Rayse was an ambitious fool, to put it bluntly, then it makes sense that if he was empassioned for who knows how long(not me ), he'd take it out on the other Shards. Taravangian, however, is a much more logical Vessel. We can't say that this makes him more dangerous, because, at then end of the day, a Chasmfiend is no better opponent than a Sleepless. One is smart, the other is, well, not smart. Fighting either would be disastrous. What I'm trying to say is that Odium is useful. Passion can be used to motivate, to achieve goals. When you're sitting around doing nothing, you're unfulfilled(I expect). However, if you feel passionate and hop onto the 17th Shard, you're suddenly much more fulfilled( ). Passion by itself is, IMO, indisputably dangerous. However, if it was bound to Honor and Cultivation... Can you imagine how much would be accomplished? You suddenly have a Shard that is able, willing, and motivated to help and grow stuff, for lack of a better word. It isn't hard to imagine the problems with any of the other Shards, either. As I'm feeling passionately daring, I'll take this one step further. None of the Shards are, by themselves, complete. In a way, it's as if their Spiritwebs are broken too. It's in the name - they were violently broken from their original state. No Shard is pure by itself, as all were meant to be part of a greater whole. Adonalsium wasn't just Honor and Cultivation and Preservation. Adonalsium was all of the Shards, not just the nice ones. Of course the nastier, harsher ones look worse to us, but in the end, all are imperfect and fail. Anyways, sorry for the rant there. Kinda got on a roll at 11:48pm Y'all have a great night/day/afternoon, and as always, smiley for a long post

Okay, thanks. Wasn't aware of that, don't pay attention to the timeline. Thanks You're definitely onto something with the whole humility thing. If I had to pick someone to be responsible and be a decent/good all-powerful deity, it'd probably be Sazed. He understands, he cares, and he wants to do good. As for sequestering Ruin/Odium, just a personal thought: death, decay, and/or destruction are all parts of the cycle of life. Conservation of matter means that for there to be more, it has to come out of something. It's a finite universe. Except for Investiture, of course, but raw Investiture is not matter(unless I'm wrong - could maybe argue that since Investiture is infinite, and able to be made into metals, it is matter).

I like this theory of yours! I just see one problem with it: Sazed is about to retire. Remember how in one of his early letters(Part 2 of RoW, prob around chap. 30) he talks about "not fitting" the shards well, and grooming someone else to fit them better? He didn't say it outright, but it sounds to me like he's grooming someone(prob Wax, idk) to take up Harmony. He says that Scadrial needs someone who can see fighting as a way to protect - essentially Ruin, but with Preservation's Intent. I like the idea that(I think you're going here) Sazed might become Adonalsium, but I don't see Sazed as the kind of person who wants that. He wants to teach religions, not be religions. He speaks so casually to Wax, it's almost like they're equals. IMO, Sazed is tired of being Harmony and doesn't believe he fits the role. Maybe someone will convince him that he does, or that he needs to stay as Harmony, but I just don't think so. No solid evidence, just a hunch

Heh heh I got the Silmarillion, the One Ring(LoTR), Way Of Kings, and Words Of Radiance. Also... *cue epic drumroll, in anticipation of some pretty schnazzy flexing* A SIGNED copy of Rhythm of War I'm elated, what can I say, so thank you all for the epic drumroll

Alrighty folks, here we go! Bringing this theory from its original posting in the Adolin Alone thread. So, just to introduce the topic: Adolin. Is. Awesome. I don't think it's arguable. If I'm right, we were all pretty triggered in RoW when Adolin talks to Dalinar about the mission into Shadesmar. To summarize, it goes like this: This passage kind of got me thinking, maybe this is that odd breed of foreshadowing so favored by Sanderson. And thus my Intent consumed my humble Vessel, and *poof* we have a theory . And it made me very, very angry, because Dalinar... come on! Adolin's upset that you killed his mom and never mentioned it. He has perfectly justified reasons for not being happy with you, and this flawed belief of Dalinar's that someone has to be Radiant to be "worthy" really just sounds like him jabbing back at his son, who's always been there for him. Anyway, for the longest time there's been a debate on whether or not Adolin will in fact become a Radiant or not, and if so what Order he'd belong to. Most people think Edgedancer, but there are plenty of options with plenty of reasons. I've always been a fond supporter(and possibly the only one) that Adolin will become a Dustbringer, what with Sadeas and all his "take responsibility" stuff. However, SA isn't Keeping up with the Kholins, or anything like that. It's the record of a bunch of Invested beings and their actions, discoveries, plans, and emotions. At this point, I do not want Adolin to become a Knight Radiant, but it doesn't matter much to me right now. I think that Adolin is going to become the Shard of the Rosharan System. This is the fun part, sharders. I'll outline my reasoning. We need a new Shard, one that balances Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. Why? Because of the Recreance, the Desolations, the Humans vs. Singers, the Knights Radiant, the Spren, etc. If there was a single Rosharan Shard, one which balanced Passion, Respect for the Law, and Development, Roshar would be a much nicer place. Also, Odium wouldn't be able to just kill off all the Shards. Which would be nice. While I know that Odium makes for a great uber-antagonist, Sanderson rarely carries villains from one series to the next(never), and I think people are going to get tired of Odium, now Todium, being the bad guy. It just gets repetitive, if you follow my drift. As for reviving Honor - Honor is a concept, a piece of Creation that can be Splintered but not destroyed. It is my belief that if an individual could become the Vessel of Honor, Honor would be un-splintered. Remember Mistborn? Preservation had splintered itself to the point where it could no loner resist Ruin, who then "destroyed" Preservation. Yet when Vin takes on Preservation, she is of equal strength with Ruin - proof, IMO, that a Shard can be un-splintered. We also know that a mortal being can assume Vesselship of more than one Shard at a time, as demonstrated by dear Sazed. We also know, again from Sazed, that a Shard wants to be filled perfectly. It's almost as if the Shards themselves have Spiritwebs that need to be filled. When Sazed writes that he is trying to shape someone to protect Scadrial better than he can, he makes a prety obvious statement. Anyone can take up a Shard, but some Vessels fit better than others. Sazed, IMO, has made it clear the he intends to step down from Vesselhood and give it(probably) to Wax. Or, in a twist, Kaladin. The reason I doubt Adolin will become a KR is that his Spiritweb probably isn't damaged enough for a Nahel bond to fill. While we know that "healthy" people like Lopen can become KR, it doesn't happen often, and Lopen still had his big 'ol issues(the whole bridgeman thing). Here's why I think Adolin's the best candidate for a unified Rosharan Shard: He embodies each of them well. He is a creature of Passion, Dedication, and Growing. He does not believe any of them are evil or wrong, and they make up much of his character. Think of the biggest events in his life. Helping raise Renarin, protesting Kaladin's imprisonment, murdering Sadeas, marrying Shallan, helping his father too many times to count, being a friend to Kaladin, loving Shallan and trying to be a good husband, trying to be a good leader for his men, giving of himself to help others, caring for and believing in Maya, respecting a dead spren(Maya), and so many more. Thing is, every single one of these examples, these important actions that at the end of the day tell us who he is, embody one or more of the Rosharan Shards. I'm not going to list them out for you, but if you look, you will see. If y'all see problems with this, or WoBs that contradict it, lemme know, because I am not very WoB-aware. Looking forward to discussing this, and hopefully seeing it in Theory Thursday! As always, smiley for long post

Hello everyone, Shard of Theory hopping in. So, Adolin. He's great. Radiant or Reverse Radiant or just the guy with good hair, we love him and he's awesome(@Dalinar, c'mon bud). I've been divided since forever on Adolin becoming Radiant or not, and if he did, I still think he'd become a Dustbringer. But now, I think he won't. I cooked up this crazy theory and I'm reveling right now in its amazing glory. Drumroll, please, for a (hopefully) really cool theory. Spoilered, FYI, because I made it that way. IK this is kind of a short one, and it's definitely got more work, but I had this idea and wanted to share it with all y'all. Have a nice late Winter Festivity, Sharders. I'll be making a new topic for this post so that this thread stays about Adolin in general, and not any one facet of him. Smiley for long post

Can we get any love for the "it's Taln" theory? Only problem that's ever been mentioned to me is that Taln and Jasnah might have a thing later in the second arc, just on a hunch someone had. Anyone see another problem(or multiple) with it? Reasoning spoilered for length... .

What marvelous humans in this thread, setting such a human example for the rest of us humany humans. Truly a wonder to behold. Exemplary humans, you lot.

Keeping of the Way(invisible T) Kings of Wisdom(no T) The Knight of Whispers(no T, really like this one) That's all I've got for now

Hey y'all! Vessel of Theory posting another theory! I personally think that the first quote refers to either nobody we've met yet(or a flashback we haven't seen) and when we get it, it'll be one of the Sanderson revelation moments. If it's not that, I'm going to guess the dude from Dalinar's flashback, the one with the kid who picked up the shardblade, the one who used the Thrill, the one in the place Dalinar razed(though dead in all but one of these scenes). I don't know his name, and I hope he isn't important For the second quote: Let's think back to Warbreaker. 1) the God Kings are children who died(I don't think we were ever told how, exactly, or if there is... an alternative) 2) "Breath". Breath. Investiture. 3) "All who live wish me to let the blade slip". So based on these, I officially theorize that at some point, the God King(or someone similar) is not liked by the people/priesthood, and they want him/her dead, replaced. So, they send someone to go and kill a child(specific or random, idk) and hope they Return? Sorry I lost steam there, maybe someone else can finish this one? I definitely think that this has something to do with Nalthis, possibly something we see in Warbreaker 2. Smiley for a long post

So just a theory from a Shard near you: 1) The Honorblades are not spren. 2) Spren can form Shardblades. 3) KR hear "dead" shardblades, very unpleasant(Renarin's life in danger and he puts it away) This leads me to believe that while a spren's soul cannot(morally, ethically, or reasonably) be split, you could wield both your sprenblade and an Honorblade. This leads to a further theory that perhaps, somehow, it is possible to use Push/Pull(I know, I know, Investiture resistance) or Lashings(same here) or maybe even fabrials(not sure if using these would have Investiture resistance) to create a kind of circle of flying Honorblades... like what Kelsier did with that nasty Inquisitor, only the metal is Honorblades. Just a musing

I'll try answering your question, comrade: If Nightblood hits a spren, the spren will be destroyed/consumed(spren are Investiture) If Nightblood hits a KR, they are destroyed and I believe there would be serious side effects for their spren, but maybe not death. There's this quote from Syl: "We don’t sleep; we don’t eat. I think we might feed off humans, actually. Your emotions. Or you thinking about us, maybe. It all seems very complicated. In Shadesmar, we can think on our own, but if we go to your realm, we need a human bond. Otherwise, we’re practically as mindless as those gloryspren." I personally would agree with @Karger, it would depend on the amount of oaths, and power of oaths, sworn. Essentially, if the person and spren are one Cognitive being, which could probably be achieved through time and oaths, I believe that Nightblood would destroy all of the KR(Spren and Radiant). If Nightblood doesn't kill the spren too, it'll probably do that thing the spren call "killing" because they've never been destroyed before. Smiley face for a longish post

heh once again, noice just for playing Devil's advocate at this point: What if said Epic has a big ol' house with a bunch of rooms and no one knows which room they sleep in? Just put a bomb in the door? What if there're multiple doors? Would it be possible to just kinda nuke or burn down the entire place? "Accidentally"?