Vessel of Theory

Fair enough btw, do you mean "the main character" or "a main character"?

I'm excited for you to post it, can't wait for another great theory! Just because they aren't grouped tangibly in the books doesn't mean they aren't grouped - that'd be like saying that no theory is valid unless it is written out word for word in the books. @Stormwalker mused on the thought that some of the Unmade were classified as "Mindless", and then noticed a potential pattern that they shared with us. While it could be that the Unmade do all belong in categories, it isn't conclusive that because the mindless Unmade were the only ones grouped in Hessina's Mythica there aren't any other groups. It could be that they just hadn't gotten that far in the train of thought. Sorry if this comes off as rude, I'm trying to debate and I know that some things I say come off/sound differently than I want them to.

No contest, at all. Both are very good fighters, and Kaladin doesn't have Shardplate, but Dalinar, even with the thrill and his shards, loses. Here's how the fight goes: Kaladin lashes himself into the air so that Dalinar has to defend up, an awkward angle for any warrior. Meanwhile Kaladin will be fighting downward, and has complete control over his momentum(storming Windrunners). Syl forms as a Shardlance. Kaladin pokes Dalinar a bunch. If Dalinar jumps, Syl becomes a warhammer and smashes him down. Additionally, can't Kaladin throw Syl and then call her back to his hand? If that's not enough, remember that even if Kaladin gets hit, he can heal, as he did in the fight with Szeth. I think Kaladin could win without even hitting Dalinar: all he does is Lash some rocks really hard at the man. Doesn't matter if he cuts them to bits if they all hit with the force of 10 atmospheres.

Or a non-conventional shield, since we're talking about shapeshifting fairies that kill with a touch. I'm thinking of a shield with a bunch of long spikes coming out the front. Picture this happening with a bunch of Stonewards on the field, or a Windrunner outnumbered in the sky. Is there a limit outside of what the spren will do that determines what shapes they can take as a Shardthing?

Wait... So the lowlanders really are airsick??

I like this... really like it, this is great! I don't think we know enough either way to prove or disprove that Chemoarish the Unmade is not firemoss... It might not be the presence of the Unmade that makes Dalinar, Moash, and Teft all feel the same way when they go to firemoss, but maybe that feeling the way they do is what draws them to the firemoss. Either way, right or wrong, this is a really fun theory

Definitely interested

Okay, that's really helpful thanks a bunch, that clears some things up for me

Alright, @kaladin22, let's talk about this ^^^ TL;DR: HERE'S WHAT I THINK: Taln will become the Champion of Odium, somewhat against his immortal Stoneward will, because of an Odium-sworn Ishar making a kind of one-man Oathpact between Taln and Odium, just to really cement things. I agree completely, one of the Heralds will be Odium's champion. However, I don't think it is Ishar. I think it's Taln. I won't disagree that Ishar is the traitor Herald. Or that he is the "head ardent", and has some level of command in Odium's forces. However... RoW spoilers Additionally, isn't Ishar's mind no longer intact? Do we know when the Heralds lost it upstairs(I'm actually asking, genuinely curious)? I agree that Ishar might be a power-hungry maniac now, but why did he go to Odium in the first place(this is just pure speculation, nothing else)? Here's why I think it's Taln: RAMIFICATIONS OF ODIUM'S CHAMPION Odium's champion has black shardplate(Voidplate) Surrounded by a golden light(Odium) and nine shadows(Stormfather says these are the Unmade, more on this later) Red eyes(a gimme, that's a sign of Shard interference from off-world) Looks familiar to Dalinar(both proposed to be Odium's champion) WHY TALENELAT'ELIN I'm sorry to all the people who, like me, love Taln. Here's why Taln is the most qualified: Only real clues we have to who it will be are Odium's proposition to Dalinar and the familiarity Dalinar finds in them, everything else is granted. FAMILIARITY: Taln shares a surge with Dalinar, both have/had Connection to Honor or a splinter thereof, Taln is the Herald of War and Dalinar is the Blackthorn, Taln has a lot of pain/regret in his past just like Dalinar, both Taln and Dalinar love someone very close to their main group(Taln -> Ash -> Heralds, Dalinar -> Navani -> Kholins), both of them are focused on doing what is needed of them(Dalinar's "Unite them" and Taln's "I'll be where I am needed") MOTIVATION: Taln, unlike Ishar, is not seeking power, but release from pain. What does Odium say to Dalinar? Essentially, it's this: "Give me your pain, let go of it, it was my fault, I drove you to do those things". At the same time, Odium shows Dalinar every horrible thing he's done in an effort to break his will to resist. Taln is not sane. Taln spent more than 4,000 years being tortured. Taln was betrayed by Ash, the Heralds, and humanity. He was there for them, and they completely abandoned him. You know how he tells Ash that he understands why they did it in OB? He's insane. He may understand, but people change a lot when they are A) tortured and B ) betrayed by literally everyone they have lived and fought and died for. WHY IT'S NOT ISHAR: Ishar is definitely the most common alternate theory I've seen on the 17th Shard so far. However, while Ishar might meet all of the vision's requirements, and maybe better than Taln(although, really, is 400% that important compared to 350%? Just saying), he doesn't have the same motivation that Taln has, aside from already being sworn to Odium or whatever. He doesn't have the same pain, the same betrayal, the same loss. He's seeking power(which I def agree with, amazing job with the Hierocracy), not relief. Taln needs relief, and that is what Odium seems to want to offer to his Champion. Of course there will be power, that's heavily implied what with the Voidplate(can we call it Voidplate? Please?), the nine shadows, and Odium's golden light, but the main thing seems to be the release. That was his entire allure to Dalinar, and I honestly don't see how Ishar would find it that important, that convincing. HERE'S WHAT I THINK: Taln will become the Champion of Odium, somewhat against his immortal Stoneward will, because of an Odium-sworn Ishar making a kind of one-man Oathpact between Taln and Odium, just to really cement things. Anyone got questions? See holes in this theory? I've posted it several times, no one has replied with any serious holes yet...

Thankee kindly, O scout of the Foxes. Your greeting was much appreciated. 17th Shard has def helped with the loneliness of isolation, and it is so very wonderful to apply my Intent to the wonderful ideas found all over the shard, especially in the SA section. I've learned a lot, I feel, and will continue learning more. Definitely looking forward to talking to all of you lovely individuals(I think we're all individuals, are there any of us who are more gestalt entities?) more

I'm new to 17th Shard and am curious, what are these "shardbuddies" and how do I... bond them? Invest them? what's the word here? Also, I'm much interested in becoming shardbuddies with prob anyone y'all are great

this the theory, @Halyo_Alex?

Heh heh singing creepily: All Odium's kids got a place in the torture

Not necessarily the word I'd use, friend This. Is. Brilliant. I love it. As for @Honorless's statement that Ashertmarn and Nergaoul "corrupt" people: Do they corrupt people, or simply encourage mindlessness, which is able to be perceived as corruption? All of the Unmade share similarities, and I think that that is part of what makes them so fun to think about and debate about. I might switch around Nergaoul and Ashertmarn for which corrupts which focus realm, but I absolutely love this. Ashertmarn I would say encourages cognitive mindlessness because when you join the Revel, you lose sight of your mind, letting it unravel into a more visceral, primitive state. Nergaoul would go into physical mindlessness because it promotes irresponsibility, recklessness, violence, etc. In short, these are all more primitive, "mindless" states of being.

Yeah, this theory isn't very sound. I think there might be something, but that's 3 hypotheticals, so moving on... I'm not sure I agree that Ishar made the Unmade, but I thought up a theory that takes it farther This is more of a conspiracy theory assumes that Ishar is absolutely rotten: Some of my genuine thoughts on your theory: I agree with @Karger that Ishar, as Odium's biggest opponent at the time, would not have been likely to do something so extreme without either a very good reason/motivation/potential consequence, or with false information. I've heard that there is a traitor among the Heralds, and it seems to me that the most obvious answer is Ishar, though I'm already lost on why and when and how. It may be that Odium didn't create the Unmade, but altered them. I actually really like that idea, it seems like a Sanderson thing to do. This kind of explains the power of the Unmade: they too were not always so powerful, but when they were snatched by Odium, he Invested them or whatever a Shard does. However, if Odium did make the Unmade, I'd guess that he made them on what he perceived as the Herald's flaws, or maybe a spin on the Heralds' abilities? Lots of theory food here

Oops, my bad Guess those are different things, then. So Aharietam is the "Last Desolation" where the Oathpact was broken, and the false desolation is another thing. Thx

Here's the coppermind entry for Bondsmiths: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Bondsmiths#Historical_Bondsmiths Yes, in Aharietam there was only one true Bondsmith, Melishi, who was bonded to "an unknown spren". Melishi, however, was a male, so I think that reasoning dies there. I like that... I think you might be onto something there - anyone got more time to check if the Vorin Book of Propriety, when naming male and female jobs, has a pattern of giving men two handed/violent jobs, and women one handed tasks?

I agree. I think it'd be weird at this point for Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar, to NOT know almost everything about someone as close to her as her ward. Is it too much to hope for that Jasnah has a mole in the Ghostbloods?

Same, got my poster a while back. Waiting for the rest of it

Definitely relatable People, no matter who, where, or when, see a male and a female doing anything together and they think that there's something more going on... It's happened to me several times, and I'm sure it's happened to some of y'all. Completely! Jasnah and Hoid are very motivated and hardly distractable. Let's all keep our fingers crossed that there isn't anything but rumors.

So in Chapter 17 of RoW, Jasnah treats Hoid kind of like family, and Navani mentions "intimate rumors". Am I the only one sitting back in absolute confusion and apprehension? I mean, Jasnah's great. Hoid's cool too. But I'm sure we all agree that Hoid would drop any feelings he might have for Jasnah if the greater needs of the Cosmere called for him to do so. And I'm pretty sure Jasnah has some relationship issues in her past, so I feel like if they are... involved, things could get really ugly really quick. Otherwise, I'd hope that they're really just exchanging information. What do we think? Is there something going on between Jasnah and Hoid, or are they just using each other for information/contacts? How's this going to end?

heh heh heh I've got a pretty fun theory for exactly what Taln being the "bearer of all agonies" means(smirks) OB Spoilers Does anything not line up?

there's this awesome thread I found one time, just looking up the Ten essences. If you take the time to read it, I think that this adjusted table by @skaa could shed a lot of light on some other theories, as well as this one. Remember that WoB where Brandon talks about the Unmade "kind of" associating with each Herald? What if each Unmade corresponds to something like the remaining Shards of Adonalsium? Perhaps(just musing here) Odium "unmakes" something in a twisted image of whatever Shard he's going to try to destroy next. This would also maybe explain that pesky WoB where Brandon says that "the number of Unmade is fixed", if we assume that the number of Unmade is able to be fixed as dependent on some checklist Odium has in his desk? Anyone got more thoughts? I know this is kind of a dead thread, I just get so excited when I find a Theory Splinter

*Huffs theorily* Okay, guys, I'll put aside my Intent for just a moment to commiserate with the best Herald... Taln deserves: a vacation to Hallandren, an apology from the other Heralds(living and dead, Jezrien can figure it out), the best counselling service available in the Cosmere(probably on Scadrial), a fully prepaid tour of the Cosmere with Brandon Sanderson and a 6 pack of Horneater White, an apology/explanation from Brandon, and scritches with Magellan.

So stormlight, as so helpfully proved by the injury-prone Windrunners, is able to heal people's body's, to the extent that the Lopen is regrowing his arm. However, stormlight is not able to cure the Heralds' madness(not sure what causes this, prob not best example). Across the Cosmere there are cases where madness or other mental illnesses happen in conjunction with magic(sorry if this is poorly worded, we just put down one of my dogs and I'm having a hard time thinking) Essentially, what I'm asking is a two part question. 1: is it possible for an individual with above average levels of Investiture(specif. Knight Radiant) to have a mental illness? I imagine this would somehow relate to Cognitive Realm and Spiritual Realm. 2: If it is possible for a KR to have a mental illness, such as amnesia, are they able to forget one, or any, of their oaths? If possible, what would the effects of this be?