LuckyJim

That's technically true, but the treatment of darkeyes is still unjust and wrong, and any level of oppression is bad, even if it's comparatively not as bad as other groups.

I kind of agree with the sentiment, but Vyre doesn't really have that many impressive accomplishments after Oathbringer. In Oathbringer he kills Elhokar and secures one of the most influential wins in the True Desolation, but in Rhythm of War he basically fails in everything he attempts. He only succeeds in killing Teft, which was only a means to corrupt Kaladin, which he failed to do. Moreover, he doesn't have much agency or drive, unlike the other major villains, he's strictly a henchman, carrying out other, bigger, villains dirty work. What's really impressive is that he managed to survive for so long, villains in Stormlight don't usually last all that long, and Moash is behind only Taravangian and Mraize in how long he's managed to stick around.

The name of the species is singer. Listener specifically refers to the group that abandoned Odium and lived in the Shattered Plains, and and term related to parsh is the human name for them.

"This undermines my entire existence!" I can't explain why, but this was one of the funniest things I've read, it just makes me smile. It's like this line from Mistborn: "Marsh knelt in a pile of ash, hating the world and himself" in that it totally fits the story in context, but if you look at the line itself it's kinda funny..

I wonder. I will maintain that nothing Moash has done really makes him the worst character in the series. Even attitude wise, he's basically tied with Venli who was, and still is in part, a selfish coward who does the right thing more out of necessity than actual moral obligation (this isn't a criticism, I actually like that aspect of her character). That being said, I feel like Brandon was really trying to drive home that this a character you should not feel any sympathy for whatsoever. Even when his Connection to Odium is broken, he makes sure to clarify "he feels bad for himself, not Teft, don't have sympathy for this guy". Moash had redeeming qualities in Oathbringer, such as his relationship with Khen and her group, but even that got kinda shoved off to the side. I'm sort of interested to see where his character goes, but that's mixed with the fear that he'll continue going down the darker and darker direction, until he's bascially just Amaram but with more viewpoints. I guess it could work, but I agree it wouldn't be very interesting to read.

This is something I've considered in the past, especially with Bradons stating that it is possible that flashback characters will die before reaching their books. That being said, I think much of the back 5 will be major characters, Jasnah at least will be most likely on the level of Dalinar now. I do think it's worth considering that some front characters (Kaladin and Shallan at the very least) will have largely completed their arcs in the front half, and not have as much need for development in the back half. I could easily see Kaladin settling in to a more supportive role, especially considering how RoW ended for him, while Shalan goes to fight the Ghostbloods in the background, making room for new characters. Once Szeth has cleansed the Shin, I think his major arc will be done too, unless he goes on to the fifth ideal, but I kind of expect him to die. Dalinar's a little more difficult to say, his powers are growing, and he could be a major force in the future, but he could also become a fused. I really hope that Venli, on the other hand, will be a major character in the back five books though. I find her very interesting because she actively struggles to be a good person, not because of external obstacles, but because she's kind of selfish and cowardly. It makes her a kind of unique and interesting character, but it means her development is a bit of a slow burn, and I want to see the process she goes through to swear her next ideals. It would be nice if the listeners in general gain a greater significance.

I think "singers" is the collective term, and it's what the singers refer to themselves as, where "parsh" is a term used by humans, I don't think any singers/listeners have referred to themselves as parsh.. Listeners is just a specific group, it's like the difference between "Native Americans" and "Lakota".

I'm actually really glad the greater Cosmere elements were kind of restrained. I know a lot of people want more of this crossover stuff, but I like it more when Stormlight is able to be its own series, without required reading to actually understand what's going on all the time. I think at the point it is now, Brandon's pushing the limit a little bit on how much he can include without alienating other readers, and I hope it stays around this range for a little while more.

I don't think it's anything like that, personally I think it might be related to the significance of eyes on Roshar. People killed by Sharblade have their eyes burn out, deadspren have their eyes scratched out, I think Moash suffered some wound that's so deep (spiritually, probably) that it can't be healed by the honorblade. I think one of the limits of honorblades is that they can't heal shardblade cuts.

I feel like he and Moash were kind of interchangeable in this book. I did like the line "this undermines my entire existence!" though, because it sounds like something I'd say when I feel like being overdramatic.

I liked them, they both seemed pretty cool, and it was nice to see some more "normal" Radiants who aren't special cases, or nobility like most of the others we've seen. I don't expect them to have major roles or much character development (since they're back half Radiants, we probably won't get their oaths either) but I do hope they maintain a presence in the series moving forward. I'm pretty sure he was a member of the Devotary of Sincerity. He mentions the Book of Endless Pages, which an important symbol to that devotary, and his open view on Vorinism reflects their nature of finding their own answers, while remaining devoted to Vorinism.

Moash was one of the characters I was most interested in when starting Rhythm of War, and while I wasn't thrilled with how he was written in Rhythm of War, and I wouldn't say that I'm coming around to it, I am starting to think maybe it could work depending on where the character goes in the future. Which makes me wonder, what even is his purpose in the story now? I feel his arc as Kaladin's foil has been completed, Moash gave up on caring because it's too painful while Kaladin accepts that caring is painful but he continues to move forward anyway. Even more than that, he even had a confrontation with Navani, who was able to defeat the man who killed her son. He's lost, he could have easily been killed off at the end and I don't think anyone would have felt unsatisfied but he's still standing regardless. Villains in Stormlight don't really last long, after a couple books, most of them either die or switch sides, even Rayse isn't immune to this, especially if you consider that he only actually appears in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, yet Moash of all people sticks around. He's been an antagonist in three books and he's approaching a fourth, making him one of the longest lasting villains in the series, behind Taravangian. So far Moash has only really served as a counter to Kaladin and Radiants in general (a big theme of RoW was what makes people good is the fact that he can change, but Moash doesn't) but if that's all he is, why hasn't he been killed off yet? It's possible that Moash could eventually get a redemption, but I kind of doubt it. Throughout Rhythm of War, you constantly have characters remarking about how terrifying, monstrous and evil he is. The same could be said of characters like Szeth or Raboniel, but for those characters there were also moments put in to signal to the readers that these were characters that could be sympathized with, but there's nothing like this for Moash. Even when he gets his pain back for a second, it's made clear that he feels worse for himself than Teft, as if to signal to the reader that we really shouldn't have any sympathy for him. Even if he did get redeemed, what would he do? He can't exactly go to the coalition, the Alethi are notoriously unforgiving of regicide. At one point I thought he'd join the listeners, but I think he missed the boat on that one. Honestly I'm half expecting it to turn out that he just froze to death on the mountain after the end of Rhythm of War.

I think thinking about the fifth ideal as "becoming x" is going about it the wrong way. In Szeth's conversation with his highspren, it seems as though swearing the fifth ideal as a Skybreaker means being confident and understanding of justice and law enough that you can make your own decisions without relying on whatever dedication was chosen in the third ideal (which is apparently only meant to be a temporary measure). It's not so much about "becoming law", as it is about becoming a fully actualized Skybreaker. A clue for what this might mean could come from the divine attributes of each order. For example, Skybreaker attributes are "justice" and "confidence", a fully actualized Skybreaker is confident enough to make their own decisions on what should be done, but is just enough to not abuse the power they gain. If we apply this to Windrunners, who are associated with the attributes "protecting" and "leading", we might get something like "I will lead others so that they can protect themselves". I think this fits Kaladin, who is frequently an inspiring figure and helps others to stand up and help themselves, rather than pushing them on his own the entire time. Personally I don't think the fifth ideal needs a specific power up, being able to get that far is its own reward. If anything, the benefit might be that the bond with the Radiant's spren is so strong that they can't break it without specifically intending too.

It's not unrealistic, but it's not satisfying either. Moash was honestly right about a lot of things, monarchy and the caste system set up by the Alethi is really bad, systemic oppression is the result of everyone involved, not just the few bad apples like Paladar and Roshone. But clearly those aspects of his character aren't important, he's just someone who torments Kaladin and pushes him to develop. It really bothers me because in the same book you have "The Lady of Pains" Raboniel, who tortured the heralds for thousands of years and builds genocidal tools but is also a complex and sympathetic character, but the guy who spent his entire life under the thumb of a cruel and oppressive monarchy is just a selfish monster. I guess it's not impossible for him to get a redemption arc, but I don't know how it could be done in a satisfying way. His character is only used to mirror and torment Kaladin at this point, so I'm not sure how he could develop to be better aside from just going in the exact same direction of Kaladin and forgive the lighteyes.

The idea that "ends justify the means" is not incompatible with the Radiant oaths, Brandon has said that while some would disagree with it, other orders would be fine with this line of morality. The Elsecallers and Skybreakers were given as specific examples of this. AndrewHB (paraphrased) Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.) AndrewHB I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a-- one of those other, uh-- one of those... Brandon Sanderson So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is... the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible* Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Spren have always had some capability in manipulating objects in the physical realm. Syl was able to carry blackbane leaves really early on, and Patter could pick locks.

That could be interesting, but I have to wonder what would even be the point of doing that now? Even if he got clarity and could resist Odium, where would he go? He can't go back to the humans, both because they wouldn't take him back, and there's no real reason he would want to in the first place, so it's not like he can really do anything other than continue serving Odium. It seems pretty clear at this point that he's just meant to be a vile and despicable character with no redeeming qualities, considering after he gains some clarity after killing Teft, he feels worse for himself than for Teft. That is kind of jarring in a series where even characters like Raboniel and Sadeas are given moments to show a more sympathetic and caring side to them. My main concern, and the reason I really hate the direction his character has gone, is because I feel like he was written this way to simplify the lighteye/darkyeye conflict and avoid making lighteyed characters less likeable for not really opposing the system. It feels like his arc and position as a foil to Kaladin is meant to show that you should forgive the people who abuse their power, oppress you and treat your family as expendable because its the right thing to do, and not doing so means going down a path of hatred and "petty" revenge. The best outcome for his character at this point would be redemption through death, or possibly using his bond to Odium in some way to influence the outcome of the conflict, perhaps imprisoning him in some new Oathpact, which is fine but still keeps the whole class conflict thing kinda simple. I legitimately just want him to die at this point (and before RoW, I was a huge Moash defender) because I don't see his character going anywhere that isn't further disappointment.

I mean, a huge portion of RoW was spent with Syl seemingly developing the desire to become more human, and gaining more human-like traits as well. Not to mention she got her own chapter portrait, I don't think they'd do that unless she was going to get a bunch more PoVs in the future. I've always kinda shipped Syl and Kaladin on the down low, so I'd be cool with it. I wonder how it would affect their bond though, maybe Kaladin eventually gets Jez's honorblade.

I thought I was alone.

I think "Order" could be a possibility, sort of like Preservation, but more everyone acting according to specific rules and tradition. This is mainly based on my reading of Aether of Night. So on this shardworld, the society is heavily regulated, everyone has a specific purpose that they follow (to the detriment of people that slip through the cracks), and traditions, rules and regulations are a large part of what determines their lives. Shards heavily govern the culture of the people they inhabit (Preservation's world is resistant to change, Endowment's is very extravagant, no one ever stops talking about Honor on Roshar), so Order could be a potential possibility. Decay (the eventual Ruin) was interfering in this world, but there was a god of that world before Ruin showed up, which could have been Order. Of course, this is based off of a book that was never published, and with large parts that aren't even canon anymore.

Fine, I hate Moash now, but I'm not gonna like it. I hate that a character that was at one point a sympathetic and complex villain is now just a 2D comic book monster, with no other purpose than tormenting Kladin.

I already preordered the book so I could get a link to the release party, but I'm strongly debating doing this anyway to see the book just a little earlier. Of course, I might just end up making a new audible account so I can get the book with a free trial.

On one hand I feel like I should reread part one just on principle, but on the other I might be too excited to get to the new stuff to pace myself like that. Although, participating in the discussion each week also let me get a better understanding of the part one chapters than I usually would have usually gotten... Oh well, there's always the reread when book 5 comes out.

Spicy take, but I can get behind it. On a related note, I kind of despise the idea of Moash being a dutiful member of Bridge 4. On one hand, it would be kind of interesting for Elhokar to have a constant reminder of his crimes right in front of him, but on the other that would require Moash to sacrifice his dignity and his ideals. Why should he relegate himself to protecting the leader of a system that consistently abused and oppressed him and people like him?

I've considered this from time to time, and I really can't see any possible resolution to this issue. The problem is no one has the authority to punish Elhokar, except Dalinar and maybe Navani, and Dalinar's response to the Roshone affair was to punish Roshone and hope that everyone else just forgets about it. Even if they could though, I don't think any potential redress would make things alright, even getting revenge wasn't particularly satisfying for Moash, none of that brings his grandparents back. I think what I'm most interested in is Elhokar's feelings on the affair, does it haunt him, or does he think it's not his fault because Roshone told him what to do, or since they were darkeyes it wasn't that bad. Another thing I've thought, as a hypothetical situation, let's say Elhokar isn't sent to Shadesmar with the others, Kholinar still falls and he has to help the citizens escape like Skar and Dhrey did at the end of Oathbringer themselves. I think the biggest problem they'd face is keeping the citizens from killing Elhokar, he basically abandoned them to play warrior king while Kholinar fell, even before the Everstorm they were only one dead ardent away from a full on peasant revolt, so things were pretty bad. It would have been interesting to see how he overcomes this challenge. As for overturning the social order, I don't think he'd do as much as Jasnah, if anything at all. Elhokar is pretty insecure, and he'd likely just clamp down to maintain order over his kingdom and his own position. Jasnah's motivation for social reform seems morally motivated to a decent degree, which is likely because she's so much more worldly experienced than Elhokar. Of course, there is the possibility that he starts using his Lightweaving to disguise himself as a commoner to avoid potential assassins, and in doing this becomes more conscious of the difficulties faced by darkeyes.