Honorless

Wax? (I assume he can speak Terris?)

You actually did it! You should ask on the 17th Shard Discussion forum or the equivalent channel on Discord. Chaos doesn't check his AMA that often.

Oh wow, sounds like Odium might not have been able to manifest himself directly on Roshar yet but he was paying attention to certain events. I wonder... does a tiny bit of Connection form between the observer and the observed? It sounds very plausible to me that it does. Because that might be one explanation of how the spren can feel him.

That's... circular reasoning. Sorry, not trying to be insulting, that's just the name of the logical fallacy. You're saying that it's not true that Moash hated Elhokar here then saying that Moash did hate Elhokar here Then you're saying he didn't have a reason for killing Elhokar ...while listing out two reasons You offer no rebuttals to those two reasons, you just state that you don't accept them. If Moash hated Elhokar, as you say here: then, why did he hate Elhokar? That's a potential reason. If he found a justification, as you said, that is a reason, is it not? We've already gone over why a lower caste getting promoted to upper caste and becoming a part of the system is problematic representation so I won't go over that again. I would however, like to point out that you're stating that there's a large gap in power between the Darkeyes and the Lighteyes, which is something that I do agree with. Yes you do, and so do we. Which we're doing? We are allowed to disagree with your opinions, which some of us did. Feel free to disagree with our opinions but expect us to defend our opinions and question yours? Just like you've been doing with us. That's how discussions and discourse work. Again, literature cannot really be divested from the real world. If you write about people, and those people are different, chances are very high that there are disparities between them. These discussions reflect the real world and yes, they can get a bit heated at times. Feel free to help de-escalate if you're so inclined or take a break. Your not obligated to respond here, nor are any people who choose to post here your responsibility in any way. Of course feel free to respond to any commentaries & criticisms to your posts and defend your viewpoint. I think that's what I see happening on this thread, with most of the posters participating. The discussion is heated at some points but people are trying to untangle everything and respond with coherent arguments.

The Ghostbloods managed to reach Yolen in record time, which Khriss struggled to do/is struggling with?. So definitely a lot of reach. They also managed to get an Aviar while Khriss and scholars from Silverlight could not survive Patji. The Ire are definitely well-entrenched on Roshar, near Threnody. Their knowledge of Shards is also pretty good. The Seventeenth Shard also seems pretty powerful and big, but apparently the Ghostbloods poach members from them. The Ghostbloods are definitely a powerful worldhopper organization, comparable to the other big names. Given how well-known the Ghostbloods were to freelance informants and how deep their reach was, I think it's pretty safe to say that they've got a lot of members. Though possibly not as many Invested members as some others if they were recruiting low level informants native to the Shardworld.

That's what I said actually. "Restricted to the middle dahn", meaning the lower dahns do not have the right

Oh my god, I forgot that the "Right to Movement" was also restricted to the middle dahns. They were basically serfs who were treated as property and near free labour. Hmm... the lack of legal rights for rich merchant Darkeyes compared to their Lighteyes counterparts is also notable. Moash's grandparents probably weren't the only Darkeyes to get done in my jealous business rivals. @Jash, definitely agree with fantasy & sci-fi authors feeling more free to explore societal themes than authors writing fiction set in the real world. Brandon talks about this too a few times when asked about these themes in Stormlight. A lot of contemporary literature seems to go out of its way to portray everyone being equal and socio-political arguments never rearing its head in even a diverse cast. A lot of people aren't in a position to ignore this stuff, y'know? Because a large part of their lives are defined by these things. The fact that you can afford to ignore this stuff is a privilege. Also, have you read Red Rising? It's not the best portrayal but it's one of the more well known for delving into race & caste in fantasy. Oh yeah, Korra completely forgot about the Equalists... Also relevant, Hermione and S.P.E.W. in Harry Potter, which is relevant because people like to talk about the part where the plot point addresses the fact that you have to listen to the people you are advocating for, but more importantly, jokes about the fact that the whole thing makes fun of people who advocate or talk about any societal issues. That's not cool. Just classifying people who speak for any social movement like racism, feminism or LGBT rights as annoying is not a good argument.

We do see Moash's PoV during that point. He just saw some Darkeyes who were so used to the existing power structure that they congregated around a Lighteyes and helped him re-establish his position. It's not a nice reaction, and a bit unfair, but the complete distancing is still understandable. I think that was just because Elhokar was right there, and Roshone wasn't. Also he might've seen Roshone more as a symptom, while Elhokar, as the king, was the cause, in his eyes. Also why is Moash's act of vigilantism treated so differently from Jasnah's or Adolin's? Elhokar wasn't any different from those thugs or Sadeas in Moash's eyes. By severe physical disability I meant their advanced age, that in itself can be pretty debilitating. It's just very notable that in-book, Kaladin's racism is reacted against by other people, both Lighteyes and Darkeyes, including former slaves who're apparently all buddy-buddy with lower ranked Lighteyes, the same that walked across the bridges that they died carrying. But the same reaction does not happen with any Lighteyes character. We do not see anyone react to their racism, ever. It feels a bit like the author's social commentary at some points, and that makes me a bit uncomfortable. Moash is himself human so I'll give him a pass on that one. That misanthropy is very unfair but just another expression of his self-hatred and disassociation & dissatisfaction from society. I would still like to point out that the highest Nahn Darkeyes were comparable in wealth with lowest Dahn Lighteyes. We do see Shallan making a quip about still being a Lighteyes even though from a fallen house. Even the Tenners were comparable to high Nahn Darkeyes. Also note, Darkeyes don't use enslaved humans, but Parshmen, they didn't know about the Parshendi. Thank you for talking about racism vs systemic racism btw!

I assume you meant aside from which spren were looking to Bond him? I think that character-wise too, Elhokar was suited for the Lightweavers. The thing he was struggling with was how others perceived him and coming to terms with his own shortcomings. So which Ideals he needed in his life and which Ideals he would've been good at, are both the Ideals of the Order of the Lightweavers. He also had some architecture, map-making and party arrangement talent as Dalinar, Adolin, Navani & Shallan noticed, so he has some artistic disposition as well.

Yup, that was bad. I'd still argue about indoctrination. Also... ugh spoilers, you know what in RoW. OP, plz quickly finish RoW so we can discuss more! So def a lot of bad stuff. My point that making Moash so damn evil is problematic representation still stands though

Damn, I forgot this wasn't in the RoW spoiler forums Update: spoilers removed, thanks for pointing that out Those are very tightly related things, you can't pass moral judgement on a character and put the context of moral philosophy into a box marked "irl stuff, do not touch". It's a hot button issue, it's going to be contentious. Take a break if it gets too much.

Heh, how inspiring that first line is, I think Imma take it as encouragement on this thread Ok, sure. I'm discussing my views on Elhokar with someone because I have different views on Elhokar, and they in turn are doing the same. If it's a closed case to you, that's completely fine. You don't have to excuse yourself from that discussion to us, you can just ignore those parts completely. I'm not saying someone's judgement is invalid because a story that they didn't write isn't addressing what I feel it should. I'm not invalidating anyone's judgement. They aren't my responsibility. I'm questioning their interpretation of the story because we both took out separate things from reading the text. We got separate things because our experiences are different, with life and with literature. Literature doesn't spring from some sort of fantasy, unbounded to reality. It stems from the author's imagination, yes and their experiences from life. You really cannot divest literature from reality. It's more important, and yes, it is more important, because a kick-ass fight is just a kick-ass fight. And a piece of literature handling complex social issues is literature handling complex social issues. By all means concentrate on what you like. I'm not sure why you feel so attacked by the fact that the latter is what I'm more interested in? I care more about the latter than any fight, why is your desire for the narative more important than mine? Why did you feel the need to question why certain things are important to me? If these discussions aren't important to you at all, then why are you here? What gives you the desire or right to invalidate or question my desires? Why are you so upset? I never did specify whose bodyguard Moash was. Besides, as you yourself said, Elhokar being good or bad apparently does not matter. Wanting to use media to get away from irl politics is understandable. Harping on people who do want to discuss those things when it does fall under the aegis of literary discussion does not. You may excuse yourself if you do not find said discussions to your taste.

He did have a problem with it, he does say to himself that they were supposed to be better. I agree, he could've gone to Dalinar. I'd still be a bit iffy about it because that still shows his lack of agency within the system due to not being established and sheer power gap. Thank you for saying that! That's an interesting way to look at it. How does Vorinism and it's dogma of "the fallen Radiants" fit into it, in your opinion then? The social mobility wasn't really much. How would one hope to defeat a Shardbearer? How would a Darkeyes hope to contest a Lighteyes that they were the one who claimed the Shards within that twisted power structure? It is all still very problematic because of the social strata, people's birth decide their station. I think you're seeing this as more meritocratic than it really is. It's just propaganda and false hope. Yeah, they were in prison without trial... that's a problem. Even our older cultures often showed more leniency to people accused of crimes if they had severe physical problems instead of throwing them into a dungeon. And racism against Darkeyes still exists. Distrust against oppressors or people who have power over you isn't a sign of bad character, it's just common sense. And Kaladin did give them all a second chance and reflect on his reactions to them. This is problematic because we don't have a single scene of any of the many, many Lighteyed cast/caste members reflect on their inherent racism. Dalinar and Shallan have problematic reactions, and the readers are meant to notice it, but the characters themselves do not ever reflect on it. The fact that Kaladin was a freed slave is just completely glossed over. Why introduce this systemic racism in the narrative and tie so much of the first book and Kaladin's character arc around it, only to do nothing with it. It feels like invalidating all the discourse about inequality that the book itself raised. It isn't about a Lighteyes being good or bad. It's about someone being put into a position where their only available option is relying on someone's continued goodwill. That is a very demeaning position to be put into, to put it very lightly.

Ah, the man himself. Care to confirm or refute the theory of your real identity?

The Bondsmiths have a Bond to spren that can be referred to as "godspren". They have a lot more Investiture compared to other sapient spren. The Stormfather is responsible for distributing water, crem & Stormlight over Roshar and the Nightwatcher can alter men's Spiritweb and the Sibling maintains who-knows-how-many fabrials all over Urithiru. We've been told that how a Bondsmith's Surges manifested also depended on which godspren they Bonded, so the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith would have powers slightly different than the Stormfather's. The Surges sometimes act differently for different Orders. Active use of the Surge of Adhesion, for Windrunners is more Physical, while for Bondsmiths it's more Spiritual, direct manipulation of Connection.

Wonder what would've happened if the bodyguard told the king that the king was responsible for a lot of past grievances for that bodyguard. Demotion at the very least. Elhokar was trying to do better, that's true but how would Moash know that? All Moash saw was a man responsible for taking everything from him trying to kill the person who saved Moash. An arrogant, spoiled, inconsiderate, drunk man. And even if he did, what then? Would that undo everything that happened to Moash? Forgiveness is not owed. "Brandon does not need to fix these things because he created a common cause that United those factions" He does not need to address the social issues with obvious parallels to society irl because he can just shove that under the rug because there's a villain everyone has to fight. That's... very problematic. This has been pointed out multiple times now, are you even reading any of my posts or are you just reacting to the fact that my views are not similar to yours? Moash hasn't got a chance to try to do better. He had an entirely realistic reaction to literal imprisonment without any due judicial process and slavery/death sentence. Then he got indoctrinated into Odium's side. And then [RoW spoilers]. Narratively, it's still quite possible for him to have a redemption arc. I'm not entirely sure this would happen though, which is what is kinda problematic about how Moash and Kaladin's arc is written. Moash is having multiple kick the dog moments and has become a lightning rod for the community's hatred. Kaladin is constantly picked on for assuming all Lighteyes are bad. When he's literally a former conscript and a former slave. That's really problematic.

Okay "I have no idea what you just said, child. So I'm just going to pretend it was something coherent and move on with the conversation"

Sure, that works. Elhokar was in a position of power and he abused it End of story The same Elhokar who tried to sentence Kaladin to death for accusing a Lighteyes? If morality is a black/white in most cases, then Elhokar is bad. Of course killing people isn't right but as you said, of course any sane person would want retribution for such a thing. And it wasn't even malice. Moash and his family were just bugs that got crushed. And then Roshone did the same to Kal & Tien. Why would I give Elhokar slack for this? Because it's the culture. Done, slack given. What's the narrative done to address this culture? Nada.

Granted, but it's the Necronomicon My wish is to access that book, for research purposes, of course

ooh, that's an interesting limitation! Granted, you can charge your phone, or whatever other device that you want to power while you're sitting on top of a fire Edit, ninja'ed mid-writing

Lol, the Sibling?

Elend

There should be at least one more Dawnshard on Roshar as when Honor mentioned them in the Visions, he pluralized them. Same with snippets of old in-world texts that we get in epigraphs. One mentioned that there's a Dawnshard that could "Bind all creatures, mortal or Voidish", which doesn't sound much like the Change Dawnshard. This is theorised to be the Unity Dawnshard. The Command is not canon, just speculation. People also theorize that this Unity Dawnshard might have some Connection with Dalinar. As for the possibility of a Dawnshard on Scadrial, Preservation does mention a weapon that he buried in Secret History. "Survive" being the Dawnshard Command is also fanon, not canon.

Granted, you are a bird. Your bane is that if you ever touch the earth, you die I wish for a Nahel Bond with the Nightwatcher and become a Bondsmith

I'm thinking @Kingsdaughter613 because her guess technically did fit the clues But really if any of you have a character planned, go for it! Looking forward to the next round!