Honorless

So, the oaths were a natural progression of the Nahel Bond? Actually, the Skybreakers' Oaths and the individual Skybreakers' reputation for strict adherence to law... We saw in Szeth's chapters how laws were only one interpretation of their Order's oaths. One could choose to follow anything external to themselves and dedicate themselves to their own personal quest. It does seem more natural when explained by a member of an Order who still have their culture preserved, and also show the difference between their actual organization and oaths. Thank you, @Calderis

Woah, that was fast! Thanks, Calderis!

Welcome to the Shard, @RossMurdock! I assume, going by the title, that you read Sanderson after reading his conclusion to the Wheel of Time series? What other Sanderson books have you read? And which one is your favorite?

Thank you! I haven't had the chance to reread Oathbringer yet. But I thought he was definitely told more than simply "there's your god. go kill it" Was it in the chapter "An Ancient Singer's Name"?

"The most important step a man can take..." [paraphrased] it is not the first one which starts the journey or the last one at the destination "It's the next one, isn't it? It's always the next one"

Wonderfully articulated, @The traveller! Those are all valid points. That does not really take the tragic aspects of his character however. And his PoVs as well as daily interactions are so... well, human. It's hard to hate an old man! Hmm, maybe the fact that most of us believe him to be a Cultivation plant also mitigate his actions in our eyes. Definitely not a liked character though

So, by far the most thorough vetting of who should get access to phenomenal cosmic power is to be found in the system of Surgebinding, those who became the Order of the Knights Radiant. We know that Honor created the Honorblades and gave them to his Heralds. We know that Ishar had a major hand in the creation of the Oathpact, which is why he is called the Binder of Gods. We know that he "thrust organization upon [surgebinder]" when he learned of their access to the Surges. He hoped that the Knights Radiant would help preserve humanity and its knowledge during the Desolations, and help rebuild civilization after the Decisions. He became the patron Herald of the Order of Bondsmiths. We know that spren recreated the powers granted by the Honorblades. Honor had no hand in this and was surprised. So... Who created the Ideals? We know that wielding Honorblades does not seem to require any oaths as we see with Szeth. So it's not inherent to the system of Investiture itself. So did the spren create the basis of the Ideals of the Knights they were to bond? Did Ishar craft the binding oaths so that the Surgebinders were generally chosen based on personal merit instead of happenstance and had to act within a structure? Did Honor craft the Ideals of the Knights Radiant? And if he did, Cultivation probably had a hand in it too... The themes of bonding, swearing oaths, personal growth meshes so well with their Intent Did the first Bondsmiths create the Ideals? Do we have any mentions or hints in the books? Any WoBs?

Thank you, all of you @Calderis, @The traveller, @Quantus, @ND103, @Firerust, @Winds Alight, @ILuvHats, @TheWadehart, @AonEne, @Child of Hodor, @Rushu42, @Vindo, @Bigmikey357, @Ixthos, @StanLemon for your opinions. Actual discussion of his character, his PoV chapters and motivations is exactly what was needed rather than more #F**kMoash. Hopefully, discussions like this would help against the constant vilification of the character and harassment of those who speak in his defense. Personally, for me Moash was always and still is, a tragic character. Even if going forwards he meets an ignoble end like Amaram, I'll still remember him as the man whose family got murdered, who then got sold into slavery (specifically the sheer brutality of the Bridgecrews), went out for revenge, ended of hurting the one man with whom he has any sort of positive relationship at all. I detested Elhokar. Yup, I agree that he was trying to change. But as (I'm so sorry, I forgot who... was it you, AonEne? Calderis?) pointed out, he did it not out of remorse for his past actions, but out of self-pity. He felt like he was a bad king, that no one looked up to him. Seeking to better yourself is hardly a bad thing, in fact it is commendable, and being selfish is just human nature. But he had gotten Moash's grandparents thrown into prison where they died, then he sent the lighteyes who was his advisor on the matter to a remote village out of embarrassment (this lighteyes would go on to get Tien killed, out of sheer pettiness, all because a doctor chose to save him instead of his son, aka basic triage!), Dalinar, Navani and Adolin have all noted that the former two end up doing more ruling than him. When Amaram was accused by Kaladin of past wrongdoings, he IMMEDIATELY ordered his EXECUTION, this was after Kaladin had jumped in to SAVE his cousins Adolin & Renarin. Adolin had to spend a significant amount of time in prison in solidarity before Elhokar had cooled off. He later admitted that he resented Kaladin for how he is perceived as a hero. When Elhokar began to speak the Words, I was mortified. When he got stabbed I was... well that moment's an emotional mess. He could've become a better person but I'd have hated him throughout that. As for his killing of Jezrien... as many have pointed out already, his headspace was a painful place to be at that time. He was desperate for any direction. Before that, in his chapter when he met Sah and his group, as well as the one where the lighteyes who was still trying to rule: these were both one the most poignant chapters I have read. He thought that the Parshendi were supposed to be better than humanity, his punishment of hard labour didn't even compare to the Bridgeruns I wonder how much he knew when he stabbed Jezrien. We know he came to know of humanity's status as refugees and eventual conquerors of Roshar due to his reactions in the Singer camp but how much did he know of the Heralds? He may very well have thought of them as gods who abandoned humanity and he definitely would have had reason to think of them as gods who committed many atrocities against the Singers before and during the Desolations @AonEne, wow. You responded in a civil manner to someone who sent you a caricature of you getting hit by a train! #Respect

Right, I forgot that Gavilar had directly told the Listener Five Elders of his plans that led to his assassination (I'm so sorry, Eshonai. I, for one will not forget you!).

Then that would come down to personal philosophical beliefs. With the amount of information he has, Odium is a God, with all the connotative meanings attached. We don't yet know how much the Sons of Honour knew, from whom Taravangian initially got his information (alongside Gavilar). That only leaves what he did. He prioritized his people over his world He prioritized on achieving results over his own mental well-being (as well as possible physical well-being) He is a consequencialist, to him the ends justify the means (Jasnah too, freely admits to the same school of ethics) He sabotaged his former colleague Gavilar and then Dalinar, stabbing them in the back He has not considered the possibility of his predictions being wrong or insufficient by themselves, only potentially not being enough in the face of the enemy he plans to face (whom he had reason to believe, he could not truly meaningfully resist, only negotiate with)... Someone to overcome, perhaps but not truly a villain

Granted, you no longer have a head (come on, that was so easy! You had to have seen that one coming) I wish for money (preferably a lot of it!)

Granted Your curse is that you're intangible and thus cannot interact with the world I wish for the ability of to teleport safely, myself, as well as others people or things I want to carry with myself

While they don't decay (but don't recover from decay either), the OP asked for a tireless body (technically) But he still asked for a body that doesn't decay so the response is kind of valid...?

Granted, they do But doors now hate you and want your blood I want a pocket dimension for myself over which I have total control

You're a wonderful person, @1stBondsmith

Somewhere after finishing WoR, I remember going online and seeing a thread on Reddit about creating a new thread called r/stormmoash. I was vaguely amused, I most certainly did not expect it to become what it has become today. Stormlight has had some less than True Hero™ characters. This complexity has always been part of what made me love the series. Some characters, like Shallan and Adolin as well as Elhokar are quite notably polarizing. I would count Dalinar in that group too post-Oathbringer. Some are more reviled: Sadeas, Amaram and Moash. To my surprise, opinion on Kaladin too seems to be quite divisive, mostly due to the existence of the previous characters. He is pointed out as being more traditionally heroic, in contrast to the other characters, on top of being depressing. He seems typically moral than the more complicated history of Dalinar and less fun to read or interact with than Adolin and Shallan. Some people have also taken issue with Kaladin's view of Lighteyes. Dalinar: I feel already tired of explaining my views on him. There are two new threads where I have put forward my views on him "moral miscalculations of Mr Sanderson in Oathbringer" by Parallax and "Dalinar's Genocide" by Hakusho Slick. Shallan and Adolin mostly come under heat because of their casual racism. Many seem to be thoroughly incensed by Adolin referring to Kaladin as "bridgeboy" as well as his comments on "the world changing" when "even darkeyes have access to Shardblade", the fact that he makes that comment about women having Shardblades also tends to draw frowns (although it is notable that he makes that comment in a positive manner, offering to teach Shallan how to properly wield a Shardblade) One of the most quoted things for hating against Shallan is the same scene with Adolin, where he makes the comment mentioned above about Shallan's worry about seeming feminine while lugging about a Shardblade. She responds by thinking "thank you for comparing all women to peasants".... Oof. There is the infamous boots scene with Tyn where she bullies Kaladin into giving her his boots. Before that, once again with Tyn, they both try on something (I forget, eye drops? lens? I think it was the former) to darken their eye colour so they could move about freely. Shallan is very excited to shed lighteyes propriety. Then she suddenly gets really worried that there might exist something to make darkeyes seem lighteyes. The point I'm trying to make by going on a spiel about these characters' various controversies is that these things are discussed. Negative opinions and accompanying evidence are examined, others' point of view seen as valid, arguments and counter-arguments are made, and so on. I'm not saying Moash isn't discussed. I've seen the threads and topics. For example, the Vyre discussions. I'm pointing that a disproportionately large amount of disliking Moash seems to have become popular simply due to trending. Oh yes, what he did was not okay but we have characters like Sadeas, Amaram and Roshone right there beside him. Moash killed Elhokar at a pivotal moment. Elhokar did genuinely try to change and was close to swearing his Ideals. Moash succeeded where the others (except Roshone, RIP Tien) didn't, as Sadeas failed in his Battle of the Tower plot and Amaram failed to dispose of Kaladin. But there are no threads or discussions simply dedicated to only hating on any of these other characters. I mean discussions like Shallan Davar disgust thread do exist but the Moash thing has gone out of control. Moash has the aforementioned very famous hashtag on reddit, where people simply drop in to say that they hate him with almost the same frequency that they say "I am Stick". There are discussions dedicated to simply hating on Moash. As well as various other such threads on who would kill Moash, etc. People casually drop "I hate Moash" or variations thereof, which get upvoted a lot. These comments often seem to be there for the sole purpose of getting upvotes. There has a become a cycle of *positivity* around the activity of dissing on this character. Here's the meat of the matter though, the name Moash actually doesn't seem to generate as much hatred as Sadeas or Amaram. It creates amusement. He isn't hated nearly as much as he is associated with lighthearted online banter. People make a "dynamic entry" with a post about how they hate Moash, generally get positive feedback and that's it. This is especially popular on forum games. (I have to admit to having dropped Moash's name in a similar manner but I did it to gauge receptiveness to disagreements against popular opinion during one of my first posts on this site. I had just come from reddit, I wanted to see how people would react. With burns or actual arguments. Thanks to AonEne for providing the latter.) People seem to find hating Moash funny. I'm genuinely curious (read: very worried) if someone will come and comment "I hate Moash, lol" or "this guy is #Moashdidnothingwrong" or just go "storm Moash" If you feel strongly about it, try to keep your comments restricted to Moash's actions against Elhokar and Kaladin. Edit 1: I forgot about the Shard's policy on cursewords. I think the real name of the reddit thread is obvious though Edit 2: minor grammatical corrections Edit 3: thank you for the upvotes, guys! Edit 4: I explain my rationale for creating this topic here: Edit 5: @AonEne's response to the same

I voted Other for Hashal and her husband, Matal from WoK: the lighteyes responsible for managing the Bridgecrews

@Calderis I'm not pointing fingers. No, I'm not painting the idea of forgiveness as being inherently religious. I wrote an entire monstrosity on the correlation between the two concepts, that's it. But I can include a tl;dr: That the complicated question of morality posed by Oathbringer can not be answered by referencing and explaining Dalinar's deeds towards rectification. I'm with the OP on feeling revolted, and that makes the very idea of the next books exciting. I'm willing to trust the author to not trivialize the issue and that enough people read his works who will be affected by his handling of the Dalinar issue if it isn't done satisfactorily. I also mentioned some real life examples of forgiving extreme atrocities. As well as one of vengeance and noted my feelings on the topic.

Huh, didn't look at it that way. Yeah, could be

Granted, your curse is that it is too tight for you to open its cover, much less press it to get to that deliciously hot Tabasco sauce. I wish to become the holder of a Shard of Adonalsium!

I think a very large part of this argument unconsciously comes from our theological beliefs and its reaffirmation in literature and other forms of media This includes the belief that there are some things worse than death. It is a statement either believed to be true or at least assumed to be a good moral stance (such thoughts probably contributed to the idea of painless methods of execution rather than endlessly torturing and humiliating criminals or painfully executing them). This idea affects how death itself is perceived: that there are worse things that can be done to people than ending their existence (I find this very arguable) I think many of Sanderson's readers come from a religious or at least spiritual background (by which I mean that they are not strictly practicing organized religion but have a less strict belief in an abstract, deeply personal God). Many probably believe in an afterlife, consequently many also probably believe that, in the Cosmere, there exists something for the deceased in the Beyond. It feels more wholesome. It can be, in that form difficult to weigh between (A): someone (or many someones) who are gone and no longer suffering, and (B) someone who is clearly and unarguably suffering. (A) being the people of Rathalas and (B) being Dalinar. Clearly (A)'s suffering has ended while (B)'s hasn't. (B) is genuinely trying to change themselves so that they never become that person who could do something like what was done to (A). Also, forgiveness itself is a defining component of Christianity. Trigger Warning ⚠ Existentialism, Atheistic Philosophy, Consciousness/Self/"Soul" But what if there is no afterlife? What if we are just a collection of neurons, hormones, blood and bone. What if the answer to the question of "what happens to us after we die?" is like asking, "what happens to a flame after it has been extinguished?" The answer is nothing. The flame is gone. It no longer exists. Fire is just a chemical reaction and now it has ended. What if existence is just a process that will come to end? The above viewpoint seriously affects how someone would perceive death. A large part of the audience probably believe in some form of afterlife and that affects whether or not they believe that killing can be forgiven, and if atonement for the killer is possible. That the people of Rathalas are at peace somewhere and capable of forgiving what was done to them. Obviously, we don't know what happens after death. Dalinar doesn't either. But for the people of Rathalas, their journey has ended. They can't voice their opinions. Dalinar seems to be capable of moving forwards. There were children in Rathalas who'll never know adolescence. If it were a different book, it could very well have a survivor of Rathalas as a viewpoint character, watching in horror as the person who ordered the massacre of their home says that they're very sorry and then getting rewarded with mystical powers. It is a very valid stance to not be moved by Dalinar's story. It is valid to be concerned and/or disgusted. Sanderson has taken a different stance before, in Mistborn. Vin killed many soldiers of Cett but then spared Cett himself. Reen was cruel, he crushed Vin's spirit.. but he also sacrificed his life for her, in more ways than one. He could've left her but he only did so at the very end, leading the Inquisitors away from her but getting himself caught and tortured. He never revealed Vin's existence, stopping the Inquisitors' hunt. Vin still refused to forgive him for never really being there for her. He felt obligated to keep her safe, yeah, but she never felt loved. She moved on. (ironically Ruin probably helped by mimicking Reen's voice). Not everyone has to be moved by Dalinar's Ideal. Sanderson himself seems very open to different opinions on morality. It is simply an exploration of the theme of 'becoming better people'. It's perfectly acceptable to balk at the idea of forgiving Dalinar's actions. Oathbringer seems an experiment in morality, this is just the one that people would have to agree to disagree on. I have mentioned this before but real-life people who have committed massacres against a group have been forgiven by remaining members of that group. [Why I forgave the man who killed my children - Rwandan genocide survivor - BBC Africa]. On the other side, I recently read the story of a man who joined some elite military unit to chase down the officer who was responsible for his hometown's destruction (Eliahu Itzkovitz). I couldn't not cheer him on. There are so many WW 2 stories like this and possibly (and probably very controversially) Vietnam War stories too. It is a controversial topic We're discussing a fictional rather than a real life incident. You are not hurting anyone by taking a stance. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and free to express themselves as long as they're not hurting anyone. I hope you've found the discussion you've started fruitful, @Parallax. And feel free to tell people off if you start to feel that they are trying to convert your stance on morality rather than speaking on the point you raised. You have my support.

The entire plot of Mistborn first era: to expand: