Honorless

@Harrycrapper, @Calderis I don't think that The Stormfather has a role in accepting the Oaths of other Orders aside from his own and that of the Windrunners. Honor relegated the task of creating Honorspren to The Stormfather, remember? I think that's why he has a say on the Oaths of Kaladin & Lopen. The only other instance of him having a say in a Bond is with Eshonai donning Stormform. But that one has 'storm' in its name, so there might be some mechanics involved. It actually isn't so bizarre that a Form of Power granted by Odium would go through a spren or Honor's system or Investiture. We know from both questions asked to Brandon and various instances from the books that Shards cannot just stop someone from utilizing their magic.

Where? I don't really think we have enough information to know anything about his powers other then that they seem to prolong life. My pet theory is that Skathan himself is actually an avatar. FotS is First of the Sun where the ecology itself utilizes Investiture. That is my counter-theory to Skathan being an Avatar of Autonomy. Why do you support the theory of Skathan being an Avatar if all you believe we have confirmation of, in regards to his power, is his longevity?

Ah sorry, my bad. I should've elaborated. From what we saw of Sazed, it seems that one needs to be using the attribute that they want to store, so no storing eyesight in Tin while asleep. There are attributes more inherent to human biology or fundamental to physics or Realmatics that Feruchemy allows one to store. Weight should be possible to store while asleep.

Given that Bronze Ferrings exist, it should definitely have been possible to tap a metalmind while asleep. Good to have a solid book quote though!

That looks to be the case right now. Also, it has been stated that her magic on Taldain is more a part of the ecology like in a minor Shardworld Invested by Adonalsium, like Ashyn or FotS or Roshar. The latter is no longer a minor Shardworld and Honor and Cultivation's presence there has caused some changes. Sounds like Skathan found the equivalent of Surgebinding on Taldain to me. Not as in, he found a way to bind a spren equivalent but that he found a way to directly use Taldain's Darkside equivalent of the Surges.

That is the question, what I said was basically what the suggested method really comes down to. Also, technically he won't be getting infinite Stormlight since he would switch to using Preservation's power instead. Ability of using Investiture should be in Spiritual Identity, I think

I don't have an infinity blade but I do have a blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. It is yours. I wish for the power to summon unlimited food and drinks

Their (both the ancient Radiants and the Shardbearers) eyes are supposed to transform into the colour of garnet and ruby (if they are darkeyes). That part is canon. The corruption part is me speculating. Though corruption makes it sound a bit sinister, I prefer the term Brandon first used: 'co-opting'.

Looks thoroughly polished! Man, the editing options on this site aren't very versatile, are they?

@The traveller Within the scenario, he already has the bond. There's another problem though, most spren are repelled by Hemalurgy per WoB. But the question was just about whether Preservation's power could be used instead of Stormlight via this method. And I think yes, that is possible.

@The traveller, @Tglassy Spren are just sentient Investiture. That said, I think stealing spren bond would be much more difficult and would need grafting of both Connection and Identity.

Ah 'Your Name'... that song is forever stuck in my head. And I don't begrudge it the headspace either, it's beautiful Also, you two discussing '5 cm per sec' finally made me watch it. My heart hurts.

This would make it the second time I'd have deviated to discussing animation films in an Intro Topic, @PrinceGenocide . Just wait I'll DM you an entire list of the ones I like and yeah, I've watched 'Hotarubi No Mori E'. Edit: now I've also watched 'A Silent Voice' and that walking scene with crossed out faces is right up there with Spirited Away's train scene and Paprika's parade! @fadiay08, you remembered! Uh-oh, don't linger on the forums too long without completing till Secret History. Though you've already been at least partially spoiled by knowing the book titles and covers. But personally, that just builds up anticipation, don't you think? So, at this point you must've gotten what the character | subplot I was talking about earlier that I didn't like in this book was. What do you think of Zane?

Ah, maybe the Intent and Investiture recycle theory? Or the system in which the power is used matters even more than who provides the power. Probably both.

Chaotic Neutral. He has exactly one precept with two words and no idea how to decode the complex idea behind one of them, to make matters worse, that one word is supposed to give him context for the first word which acts as his command. Destroy Evil. He understands 'destroy'. He doesn't understand 'evil'.

I'm glad I could have given you some encouragement in posting that very intriguing topic.

Granted, however Mario dies in this installment. Permanently. Granted, as the Nightwatcher, I am very pleased that you would ask for a boon that itself carries a bane. Enjoy your partial transmogrification into Dragon kin. I wish for the power to create a realm of existence over which I may reign supreme

I've always thought of Lightweavers' encouraging positive change, "providing spiritual sustenance" and that possible instance of clairvoyance as more Spiritual aspects of their Surge. What Kaladin did with the Bridgemen, though not necessarily magical, seemed similarly evocative of their divine attributes of leadership & protection. I have similar feelings for Skybreakers' purported knack for separating lawbreakers and innocents. A combination of the kind of people such spren seek out, their perspective, the social structure of ancient Radiants plus a little bit of idea, which are tangible in the Cosmere, with an entire Realm of Existence filled with them. Maybe the Orders at the centre, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers can access the Spiritual component of their Surges more easily or lean towards it. Again, Truthwatchers do see something, maybe they had some degree of clairvoyance, psychometry or even retrocognition.

I think enough of the theory depends on the Odium rather than Rayse that it can hold, at least on that front. The main thing that runs contrary to it is the part where it only associates the Unmade with a single Surge. The WoB that stands at its base compares the Unmade to the Orders, which had a combination of Surges. The spren, even the Nahel-capable ones that grant these Surges, were creations of Adonalsium, not Honor and Cultivation, so had bits and pieces of other Shards mixed in. This could, in fact, be why the colour red, which in the Cosmere signifies that Investiture is being co-opted by another Shard, is present as the colour of two Orders of Radiants. Though that might turn out to be unrelated. However we do see that complex sociological ideas can get translated into magic within the system of Surgebinding. So a hatred-based magic doesn't seem completely unusual, there might be something more central to them though, than mere interpretation. Something like how the Orders seek to emulate a definition of the idea of honor and seek to grow as individuals. Something like not accepting responsibility and "giving up your pain" perhaps? Those might also be a matter of "rejecting" Honor and opening up your soul though, we do know that "broken" people have "cracks" in their Spiritweb through which Investiture can seep through. On the other hand, Odium does sound like his Intent might have more free expression than Honor, so he might not have anything integral to his magic. He might simply be divine hatred divested of context that gave it meaning. Maybe he just goes around corrupting other Investiture rather than Investing his own.

Wow, beautifully crafted @asmodeus! The part about Moelach fits the theory most beautifully but it might also be Tension. Agreed with @Debarra in part, I would link Ashertmarn with Gravitation rather than Cohesion under this theory. With what we've heard of Ba-Ado-Mishram, she could be associated with Adhesion. She connected with the Singers and granted them access to Voidlight. We've already seen Dalinar do something similar as Spiritual Adhesion by Connecting to to other people to speak their tongue or provide Stormlight to the Radiants. I would wait to see the rest of the Unmade before anything more solid, though Definitely agreed that what the Fused were doing was accessing normal Surges, they were also using Stormlight to power it. All the rest of Odium's influence on Roshar were either effects of the Unmade or recently other Voidspren but lesser Voidspren, not Nahel-capable spren's counterpart. Roshar is confusing, especially counting its more magical inhabitants, the Singers, the Dysian & Siah Aimians, whose intrinsic magic is more Adonalsium-derived. I think of the Old Magic as similar to Forgery and Hemalurgy due to how it affects the Spiritweb, modifying it by altering, grafting or tearing it. By that sense the comparison with Voidbinding makes sense since all the Voidspren function as a Spiritual hole (much like Hemalurgy did for Ruin) for Odium. I've always considered Renarin's future sight to be a more natural side effect rather than a Void-ish Surge, tbh (future sight could be said to be Illumination of Progression). Brandon only ever pointed towards the Voidbinding chart when asked about Renarin's visions, I think people are overestimating the connection. Brandon has certainly done similar misdirections before. Truthwatcher see something. Plus, in the Urithiru gem archive, there was one gem that said "...I foresaw this"

Cohesion and Soulcasting are both up there but Lightweaving isn't far behind.

Welcome to the Shard, @asmodeus! Happy theory-crafting! What's your favourite magic system?

It's in Sarene's chapters mostly, iirc, but also mentioned in Raoden's chapters.

That is a bit too optimistic, I think. I remember that line that Wyndle said, that Mother (Cultivation) is starting to give up on humans. Preservation had reason to want to put Scadrians before himself. It was his Intent plus he created them. I don't see Honor and Cultivation doing this. They have no obligation. They've already switched sides before, from Singers towards humans, maybe for completely understandable reasons but I don't see them as self-sacrifing. There is also the doubt that Cultivation herself expressed on Dalinar, that he might ultimately become Odium's. Does she have a plan? Definitely. Was everything that happened part of the plan? No. She is juggling multiple things and doing it well, that doesn't mean she's calculating the trajectory of all individual pieces. It was the same with Preservation's plan. Not everything went according to plan but he had accounted for those moments of chaos the best he could. Even then without the random factor of Kelsier, everything would have gone completely awry.

@AngelDeath At first? No. In the middle... yeah I was curious about Vasher I liked the suddenness of Siri's situation and Vivenna's reaction. I somewhat liked Lightsong *sound of crickets chirping* nothing happens for the first entire half of the book No court intrigue, aside from Susebron's reveal, nothing interesting happens Lightsong banters... and banters..... and banters.......... it became really annoying how inactive he was Vivenna was just a complete stuck-up, managed to do even less than the other characters Vasher was a no-show (except one zombie squirrel) ... Then the plot exploded. Vivenna was suddenly destitute. Denth and Tonk Fah were the bad guys. Nightblood. The priests weren't the bad guys. Lightsong's fate started to approach... That was quite an about-turn the book made.