Honorless

I don't like that one. Um, what about Emperor's Soul?

What about Mistborn?

I think you meant 'spren', , I assume you're enjoying The Dragon Prince

Mediocre

Absolutely agreed with all of that

I don't know if I am just very late into Mistborn characters' morality discussions or if these things were really just sadly overlooked. While Stormlight characters have multiple topics analyzing them, I've found very few doing the same for Mistborn characters, with Kelsier being the one notable exception. There have been previous topics discussing Kelsier in this context such as: https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/comments/7t5rdz/tfe_i_was_disappointed_in_the_ending/ My thoughts regarding the same, well, I think that the stakes as well as the context for his hatred made his actions quite understandable: the Nobles were gits, who practiced extortion, slavery, rape and mass executions. Kelsier intended to die and with his plans with the Kandra, to inspire the Skaa via the one element that Sazed recounted lasted the longest against the Lord Ruler: religion. He did have a very high opinion of himself and wanted to leave quite the legacy behind by becoming a god, he ultimately had no concrete plans for dealing with the Lord Ruler or the Inquisitors, and what he did could be seen as a form of escapism. Does this make him a bad person? I was talking with @Michael Marssen regarding the morality of characters from Stormlight and Mistborn, about Shallan & Dalinar, and the big four of the original Mistborn trilogy: Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Sazed. I will quote my thoughts on Kel, Vin and Elend from this conversation for expediency's sake ~Stormlight, Oathbringer spoiler~ But there has already been enough discussion on this character. So, I won't rehash those and instead move on two other characters who I believe should also be discussed within the same frame: the main couple, Vin & Elend Vin Vin notes herself to be a creature of instinct and in WoA muses that she isn't a judge but an executioner... or something along those lines, I forget the exact quote. The highlight here is her wholesale slaughter of the Cett soldiers while sparing only Ashweather Cett himself, intending to also kill his son Gneorndin for trying to defend his father. Elend I really feel iffy about the two executions that Elend committed: of his former friend Jastes Lekal and the Skaa soldier, Bilg. For those who've forgotten, Jastes Lekal was a fellow idealist and compatriot of Elend Venture and Telden Hasting. They often met at balls and discussed politics. After the collapse of the Final Empire, Jastes fled Luthadel to his home Dominance where he tried to implement several of Elend's ideas in governing his lands, such as freedom and political honesty, which was seen as a sign of weakness and led to his family members were culled off by the new rulers when they took control. He became unhinged and recruited an army of Koloss by paying them with fake coins to beseige Luthadel. He was caught by Elend trying to flee in the aftermath and summarily had his head lopped off. Bilg was a Skaa who was sceptical about the chances of a successful skaa rebellion. He just wanted to live. He saw through Kelsier's charisma & realized they were being led to suicide. Kelsier used him & Demoux to turn the tide of opinion by having the two duke it out by Rioting Bilg's emotions and supporting Demoux with steelpushes and ironpulls. Kelsier intended to kill him but Demoux resisted. In WoA, he gets involved in a scuffle between the Mistfallen and the other soldiers, started by Midge (actually accidentally started by Kelsier, as seen in Mistborn: Secret History) who claimed that the Mistborn were holy and chosen by the Survivor. Their general, Demoux had to interfere, punched his general in the face right when Elend joined the scene. According to the law instituted by Elend, he had to execute Bilg, even though Demoux pleaded to only throw the man in solitary. Another point of contention for me, as I mentioned, was Elend became a military dictator. Again, as I said, I understand the stakes and I do love him for his selflessness and willingness to die for his beliefs, which he displayed twice, but he also basically went democracy is for later, now we fight. And he inspired others to fight and die... um, a quality that is praised in real life too, especially in soldiers but it's one of the heroic qualities I'm most uncomfortable with. So, what did you guys feel about the original Mistborn trilogy characters?

We have roughly one & half books worth of characterization on Kelsier, I think we should stop flanderizing him over a few meta commentaries

Yeah, I could visit King Cole's profile while logged out, but after I logged back in it showed: www.17thshard.com is currently unable to handle this request. HTTP ERROR 500

Other threads discussing the fork, as requested:

The Southern Continent?

Welcome to the Shard! Hmm, do you know what the books' titles are in French?

Yessss, that is the only correct response to reading the Emperor's Soul! Also, welcome to the Shard!

He meant *Cyto is short for Cytonics, auto-correct, I assume, struck again

Hey @AonEne, thanks for defending me and the topic in your response to the question of why I made this topic, I either missed those comments & responses back then or chose to ignore them for a while And thanks to the rest of you as well. I'm gonna sound more than a little miffed in the rant below but it's because of the things I mentioned, everyone of you who commented on the topic itself was perfectly civil Let me explain my rationale for creating this topic: No, I'm not daring people to say #f*ckMoash here, but I am calling them out. No I'm not trying to "convert" people into #Moashdidnothingwrong camp, I'm trying to generate sympathy for the character. I refuse to believe that anyone could watch their family being killed for petty reason, be enslaved and forced to become a nameless meat-shield for other people's grudges, and games, watching people die thanklessly, needlessly, then save some of the very same people, then see the person who saved you and them getting jailed (actually almost executed) for daring to speak up against one of them... I refuse to believe that anyone put through those positions should be asked to take the high road, to forgive & forget, and to become a good little bodyguard to these very people. Elhokar was the one connecting element, he was just as responsible as Roshone was for Moash grandparents' deaths, Elhokar didn't free them even after he realized Roshone's corruption because he was embarrassed, his grudge resulted in the War of Reckoning, that put him in the Shattered Plains as part of the infamous Bridge 4, the dregs even among the wretchedness of the Bridgecrews. It's just a book bro, chill out It's just a topic bro, chill out Yeah, it's a book, I'm trying to point out that the hate against Moash comes from flanderization of a very well-written character. Also because of our sympathy towards the main character/PoV character because it was through Kaladin's eyes that we saw these events unfold. It's a knee jerk reaction stemming from loving the main character. I also have a practical reason for posting the topic, that's where the "calling out" part comes out. People online are getting mistreated for trying to defend Moash. Chill out, Moash haters. Also it's an annoying meme, and it's not better than "I am a Stick", in my opinion

Maybe you can hold off on reading/completing Oathbringer till Rhythm of War comes out

Happy to help!

Imperial Seat of the Rose Empire?

I always thought the Cognitive Realm was cool. The use of the Platonic idea of the Ideal Realm (separated into two Realms: the Cognitive realm of the mind and the Spiritual realm of the ideal/perfect objects & beings) in fantasy was awesome! I was also very sad that we won't get to see something like a character's own personal pocket dimension. The Cognitive Realm seemed like the perfect candidate for hosting pocket realities: it is the realm of the mind, space is malleable here being shaped by collective belief & perception. I thought that the fortress of the Ire would be as close as it gets Then I realized we have seen this: 1) Stormfather's imagined place, where he took Dalinar, which he was very defensive about explaining saying that "it is no place!" before explaining that he imagined it and explaining the nature of the Cognitive Realm and the objects in it 2) the visions sent by Honor, I didn't realize it was a real (ish?) place, simply imagining it taking place within Dalinar's mind. Then I remembered that: A ) Dalinar shared these "visions" with other people B ) Odium broke into one I imagine it's very Investiture-intensive to create a pocket world, given the characters who've shown the ability to do so. I wonder if any Investiture system we've seen can be used to do this

I think the link to the prose is broken at the moment, but you could check? Go to Brandon's website and register for the newsletter. Then go to your mail, check the mail that contains a link to White Sand prose. Also, go ask for Aether of Night!

I have to say I agree with the feeling of anger people feel towards Moash for his actions in WoR much more than his actions in OB. He did attack and almost kill Kaladin, the person who saved him in more ways than one. But I still believe that what Moash felt and did there was understandable from his perspective. Revenge for losing your family because of someone's embarrassment, getting turned into a slave, in a situation as hopeless as the bridges for other people's grudges, games & entertainment, then saving some of those people's lives by putting your own lives in danger, then seeing the person who brought you out of that misery and lead you save the lives of those other people getting jailed for the action of accusing one of them? So very understandable that he wouldn't want to take the high road and forgive the one person linking all of these "misfortunes" together.

Going by the name, Purity's Eye could refer to a Red Spot analogue on the probable gas giant, no idea why he'd use that to swear though

Welcome to the Shard! Any Cosmere books still left on your to-read list?

I have to agree with Invo here, Way of Kings was quite dark

I think the newsletter link for White Sand prose isn't working currently, but do go check & grab it if/as soon as it's up. It's better than the graphic novels and all you have to do is subscribe to Brandon's newsletter.

Oh I've seen this before, no offense to the creator but I would not want to use that as a reading guide or recommend others to use it as such. After completing the Sanderverse maybe, to visualize the connections