Elsecaller_17.5

Something along this line is most likely. Its probably technically a curse too. Several of the Heralds pages on the coppermind have commonly used curses/sayings referencing whatever herald.

I'm rereading oathbringer and I found a cool little throwaway line. Ico, the lightspren captain, references his daughter "who ran off chasing stupid dreams." Could his daughter be Timbre? I think the idea has further merit since Ico's father was a (betrayed) radient spren setting a precedent in the family.

Please

I don't think we can underestimate the potential of progression. During combat it would be difficult but in the breaks and lulls it could be very effective (and more cost effective) to heal wounds that aren't neccesarily going to kill but will put a soldier out of commission.

If I ever hit my reputation limit for a day it will be because of this thread.

Interplanetary war. Horrible, but it might be fun to read.

Welp, Brandon "hemalurgy always hurts you" ends the debate for me (but I don't think it will end in world) I was operating under the assumption that a single spike could benefit without major side effects. Evidently I was wrong. I still think medallions need hemalurgy, but I think hemalurgy will be discarded as soon as possible. I should add that I believe in the tenacity of the soul. I don't think anything you could do to the soul could permanently damage it. In the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms definitely. But in the the sceme of the beyond, no.

Its supposed to be hard. Remember Nale is the only skybreaker to have sworn the 5th ideal in 100's mabe 1000's of years

I sure hope so, and I'd love a chance to visit Roshar (if I pick up a Nahel bond on the trip that's a pretty big plus).

This whole scenario adds greatly to the value of bronze. Cause now the guy who was a tineye last week might be a bloodmaker this week and a rioter the next.

I think it would be more like acupuncture, and even more complicated than that. But I don't think they will. It seems far to active a prospect for the Kandra to facilitate. Yeah in hindsight heart surgery was a very poor example. Still though I think we can compare it to modern day experimental medication. And last, but certainly not least. Yes, but we don't know. If it causes significant side effects for the receiver it is a massive blow against the ethicallicity (might be a made up word) of hemalurgy. But the only way to find out is through experimentation and I think that it would be worth it for the potential gain.

Yes, a sort of idealized version of it. The skybreakers jump from "I'll put the law first" to "I am the law." I see it as comparable to honorspren being the living personification of honor. Once you've sworn the 5th ideal your are a living personification of whatever, be it law, protection, or empathy.

I did, and it's quite possible it wouldn't be worth it. However I can't think of any examples of what the side effects of one spike might be. Again yes, there's a ton of gray area. In this case I'd compare it too there being a lot videos of surgery on YouTube but not a lot of people trying it in their basement. I think hemalurgy is complicated enough that without shardic influence you would need a lot of training. Because of that training it could be regulated in a way similar to how surgeons are regulated today. But it required a fullborn. On modern Scadrial the only way to get enough powers in one person to do that is hemalurgy (or the bands of mourning thenselves). I feel this way cause while only metalborn can provide a spike giving a metallic power, anyone can donate strength, their senses, emotional fortitude, etc. Yes it would take experimentation, but so did heart transplant surgery. The main difference with TLR was I believe he was trying to make hemalurgic constructs which I would assume are much more complex.

I've already shared by biggest one. That I believe bondsmiths would have much more active oaths. As far as the patterns I see it as a little more general. Constant, main idea, clarification, ???, main idea but bigger. And I'd rather not debate the wording. We certainly could, but I agree that it's not the biggest part.

It's not clear how the surge of transportation works, but willshapers and elsecallers could be amazing at getting small groups behind enemy lines and to other critical locations. Again depending on how illumination can be utilize lightweavers and truthwatchers could aid in communication.

I've really enjoyed reading these posts @Karger, good job! Just in general I've really agreed with most of the stuff you've said. We could debate the specific wording and the validity of the constant, service, fairness, etc. but I think the most important thing is you have captured the feel of each order. With almost all of them they've just felt right.

That's a fascinating question. Probably not, but I do see how "surgical" rioting and soothing could help someone attain the personal growth to progress further in a Nahel bond. Edit: This is a tangent but I'm really just genuinely curious @Karger is the "physiological torture" your opinion on emotion allomancy in general or doing it on such a massive scale to make a crack in a soul.

They are, but I believe that whether or not you participate needs to be a personal decision. I had not considered quality of life after donation because I figured you were pretty much just dead. Not sure if a 100% (or close to) mortality rate for donating makes it better or worse in your mind but I see it as a plus. No ones gonna donate unless there all "yeah I want to die." But the basic spikes would be available in much higher quantity. Not quite as high, but comparable to modern day organ donation. I agree, but as I stated before I believe to produce southern technology (at least at first) requires hemalurgy. I feel that this strengthens my argument because a relatively small population of donors could create benefits for generations. I'm certainly not saying people should be requires to donate that would be horrible. But I think everyone should have the option. Whether I'm a metalborn who wants to pass his power to my kid or just a citizen who wants to help people with an everyday problem the option should be available. I'm starting to ramble so I'll make my last point quickly. I believe basic hemalurgy (not creating metalborn) has the potential to be more common that medallions and do more for society.

Well this pretty much ends the debate, kudos pathfinder.

Any surgery has risk, but we still allow cosmetic surgeries that aren't necessary, and in many cases lives could be saved or at least improved. Iron spikes in particular come to mind. A surgery starts going south, shove it them, they live (admittedly this might not be quite how it works but I think the point still stands). Yes there would be corruption and black markets, but there always is in any system. I (personally, and respecting others opinions) think that the potential gain outweighs the risk. Just a side note, I imagine the actual powers being akin to a family heirloom passed down through the generations. Second side note, yeah a lot of this will be invalidated by the "medallion revolution" but we're probably going to have to use hemalurgy to get there. Third side note, I do see most hemalurgy being non power granting.

This is true. To clarify I think because A and L are an internal part of the system they might not be any harder to push on then a hunk of steel.

I am specifically referring to his suggestion to spike out metalborn at the end of the natural life so their powers can continue to benefit society. Many theories suggest that this very principle is what allows universal metalminds to be created. Beyond the metallic powers other traits could be wildly useful to pass on. Imagine a physical therapist being able to give a patient an iron spike (strength) or a dying grandfather being able to give his depressed grandson his emotional fortitude through a zinc spike. Is there anything I'm missing? Some glaring problem that invalidates this?

I think A and L would be an all or nothing thing. They are the god metals, pure investure. They would either be as hard to push on as a Shardblade or not limit pushing and pulling at all. Evidently it's not the first the first so I would assume the second.

The metalminds resit pushing and pulling, but I dont think the god metals do. I specifically remember a scene where Vin pulls an atium beed from a jar into her mouth. Less confident on this one but I think she saw the Lerasium bead with steelsight.

Arguments that the ideal will be this or that tend to be based on the gem archive (the aren't I supposed to protect people one) and Kaladins own inability to swear the oath. I'd like to add one more reference as well as another interpretation. (Here I'll make an aside to say I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this) In OB at the end of Kaladins travel with the Singers he flees with the incoming highstorm. Before he does so he rescues the human captives that he can, bringing them to shelter. Syl tells him "you can't save them all." I believe this suggests a general 4th ideal of "I will protect those that need it most." (For anyone wondering I still think Kaladin's personal oath will tie in self forgiveness)