Karger

Wow I did not even consider that but yes that is totally how Taravangian would play it.

No one told Einstein what we could get from his homework either. I challenge you to predict the results of any technological revolution accurately and we are used to them existing, Development on this scale is very new on roshar. You are entitled to your opinion but it remains an opinion. Stating it as fact changes nothing. Connecting the theoretical with the practical is a very difficult exercise at the best of times. I think it realistic that Navani would make such a mistake given the limited time she has and pressures she is under. The blatant lies were there on purpose. Gaslighting does not always refer to making someone think they are crazy it is used to compromise someones ability to think clearly and make the choices they would otherwise. Navani is led to believe that her cause is hopeless and the war will never end unless she can get this to work. She was righting down theories and brainstorming sessions as well as recording results from her experiments for analysis. That is part of the process. Saying that Navani's only impulse was ego strays off the path from opinion to be demonstrably wrong. No one in human history has been motivated solely by ego. Human beings are composites of a large number of emotions some of which are in opposition to each other. Navani's main impulse may have been ego. I think that is a more fitting description of Venli. I would insted describe Navani's impulses mainly as a combination of a desire to prove herself, hope, fear, and desperation. Hiding the notes would only hide them from causal observation as Navani knew. If Navani thought researching was a good idea she needed notes. Ergo she did the best she could. You may think research itself was a bad idea but if she was being monitored as carefully as you suggest notes or no notes would not change much. I did not ever say anything resembling this. I think it understandable that Navani would wish to prove her capacity to Raboneil. I also think that it is a valid interpretation to state that this may have compromised Navani's judgement. All this proves is that Navani has some deep seated insecurities(like everyone else) and that Raboneil was more then capable of exploiting them. I think it wise to be circumspect in your criticisms in this regard as you never know when others might have cause to judge you for the same reasons. She instructed her scholars to do just this and did so with a moderate amount of success. However diverting Raboneil is not a real solution. It buys a small amount of time and limits Navani's access to information she might need in the future. You are essentially saying Navani should cash in all her peices at the begining of the game without even knowing the rules or objectives of the players. Navani gave away one sibling node as a mistake. She helped her make Warlight which was useless to Raboneil(as Navani knew ahead of time) and actually was a much better time delay then what you are suggesting. Navani effectively lead astray or diverted Raboniel by helping her find something real that was completely useless to her. I call that a win. Again different times. She discovered she was being watched in her conversations after the discovery of warlight and the loss of the second node. They were also not watching but listening. Remember the notes you complain about? They cannot be read without a direct view. Given that Navani is doing research on a topic the fused don't understand much of I do think she could have gotten away with it.Anot She was only around ten minutes too slow actually. That is a lot when considering the several days process. If Raboneil had waited to visit a little longer Navani would be in the clear. And it is not at all suspicious. Navani needs the plate to accurately reproduce the rhythms so that is not an option nor is it wishful thinking to think that the plate may not retain intent. No one knows the rules. It is a coin flip. Finally Navani concluded that this work is a good idea. The fact that you think the research should not happen is not a flaw in the security. Another layer of security. Presented with an unfamiliar peace of technology you won't always figure out its purpose. The fact that you think the research should not happen is not a flaw in the security. Navani correctly judged Raboneil's behavior and acted accordingly. Raboneil survived because of pure luck. This treason was undetectable and would have delayed the sibling's death until at least the next everstorm. While a plan is in operation you can only hope that things work out the way you want them to. Navani maximized her odds using clever strategy where she could and hoped where she could not. She did the second for a good chunck of the book(that is how it gots it's title). She consideres doing the first but decises against it. We won't know the full extent of Navani's actions for years or decades. As to your last comment. Repetion does not make a statement more true. I have freely admitted that an interpretation in that direction is valid. Your rufusal to see any other point of view is irritating not interesting. Even the shards can't perfectly predict the consequences of those actions. Willful ignorence is also somthing everyone is guilty of at some times. I fail to see how Navani could pull off what you sugjest. Navani also is smart. She is a connector and orginizor. You can't expect her to be amazing at everything all the time. A chacter flaw is not a desire. She did not hand over the method nor did she figure out the full implications until after Raboneill discovered what she did. I agree this is a topic for elsewhere. However gunpowder has killed many more people then nukes and the same attitude does not exist around it. She saved the tower in all probability. Kaladin may or may not have been able to turn the tide. I am more inclind to think not despite my respect for him. It is not like Navani wrote an instruction manual. They reverce engineered her work. With the exception of herself personally most of the scholars in the tower did actually spend their time wasting time(at Navani's orders). I am interested to see what her third oath will be.

She created something that can kill there god. For an enemy. Given that Honor is dead and Navani probably does not know much about Cultivation other then that she is in hiding creating disorder in enemy ranks could be beneficial. This is common knowledge to us but not really to them. Syl jokes about it but that does not mean that Navani puts it together instantly. Remember this is very new subject matter for rosharan scholars. They know even less then we do, have had less time to get use to knowing, and on top of it all have to unlearn previous theories. Untrue. She was very worried. She was too caught up in trying to end a war she thought she had lost from an impossible situation while being gas lighted by a seven thousand year old manipulator. She takes notes. More or less all scholars do this. It is exceptionally hard to organize your thinking without them. I imagine she had a contingency to burn her notes if given enoug time but in between all she could do is what she did. Hide them. This is common knowledge to us but not really to them. Navani knew that Raboneil's lies were lies. Her reasons for collaborating with her were simply different. I see no problem. Her conversations with the Sibling were being watched closely. Her research was not. She had a several step security system. Don't get caught. Standard methods. Do your work out of sight of the guard's direct view, work on several different problems at the same time so what you are doing is less clear, hide notes on secret project along with the two materials that actually matter(the plates). During conversations deflect attention from secret project. If discovered possible the plate does not retain intent or at least that the difference is not noticed by investigator. If discovered and plate detected possible Raboneil does not figure out a method of making antivoidlight with it. If discovered and plate detected and method(vacuum) detected cooperate knowing that Raboneil will want to test the new theory(this is know because Navani would do the same thing and Navani understands Raboneil). Leave room for a second while she blows herself up. Raboneil won't realize this is a possibility anymore then I did initially. I only know because some people did it by accident. After she dies reenter room and destroy or abscond with notes. The confusion caused by her death may allow me to make an escape using my prepared fabrail weapons. If Raboneil survives hope she can't do anything too dangerous with this technology. I challenge you to do better on short notice. Raboneil got Navani to work for her without knowing the consequence or purpose of her actions. I call that a con. You are of course entitled to read a character as you wish but calling Navani's motives selfish seems unfair. We all have exploitable patterns of thought that leave us vulnerable to manipulation. The fact that Raboniel managed to appeal to them is not Navani's fault. So you are saying Navani's only motivation was curiosity and a desire to prove herself? Both of which are normal and healthy human behaviors? Seems too me that her only crime in that context is overestimating herself. Navani may be Oppenheimer but it seems pretty unfair to cast her as Mr Sinister. You are conflating two different decisions by Navani. She initially worked with her because she wanted to spy and sabotage. The result was warlight. Afterward she decided to work on anti-voidlight because she thought she was out of options. I have already admitted that Navani has deep seated insecurities and a desire to prove herself. This may have played a role or even compromised her judgement. I personally think she was working because she thought she had no other choices. This is absolutely a false dichotomy. Navani could have been working with Raboneil because she thought Honor wanted her to. There are more then two explanations to her behavior at any given time. That is very much not what is happening here. Sure doing something unintentionally does not mitigate the harm done. Doing something that when combined with factors beyond your control creates harm is not something you can realistically blame people for. Otherwise I could lay all the suffering done by a hurricane on the fact you breath. As are (unsarcastically) the estimated millions of American troops and even japoniease civilians who might have been harmed if they could not get them to work. The vast majority of people in WW2 on either side did not die from nukes. Even the vast majority of civilians who died in cities. I am not excusing their use I am just saying that I will not accept anyone who believes they can tell me weather them existing is good or bad. The quote seems apropos. I would say she worked, while under intense pressure, to find a way to defeat an unstoppable enemy, and the result is a devastating weapon whose effects and ethical implications are beyond me. I actually sympathize with Raboneil a bit. It seems only fair that everyone play for keeps this time around. What actual mistakes did Navani make? I am talking about real mistakes not "this turned out badly" or "she should have known better." I would say that since we don't know the full effects antivoidlight's discovery will have on Rosharan history we can't say yet if working on it was a mistake. Also since Gavilar managed to make some it is not as if we know it would stay secret otherwise. I agree she probably should have figured out the potential dangers of antivoidlight earlier. The only real mistake I can think of is believing the sibling's communication was secure. Navani has become too used to spanreeds. Never believe a message is secure is a rule that she would know if they did not have them. You seriously need a reread. They spied on Navani's conversations with the sibling. The sibling assured Navani that the communication method was secure. They did not keep her under 24/7 surveillance.

You really should reread the chapters where anti-light is discovered. Navani's initial motivation and situation... Raboneil previously indicated that killing Odium was the reason she wanted antilight. Navani had no idea at the time that it could destroy fused or that a variant of her reserch could destroy spren. After making some progress they have this exchange Navani realizes her motivations have been compromised after this exchange and resolves to try and find any other solution. but then... So she works and... Raboniel enters her workspace and Navani makes several attempts to deflect her. She asks about Axi and lies about her research. However Raboneil discovers and plays the plate. Navani had no way of knowing if the plate would retain her intent. Remember it sounds exactly the same as Odium's tone. With this setup and the unfortunate arrival of the Theylen vacuum tube Raboneil has everything she needs to replicate Navani's work regardless of her cooperation. However Navani does realize this offers her a chance to kill Raboneil. It almost works too. Unfortunately Navani had not realized that this would work for spren as well. She was just a step too slow. Yes. I have to call BS. The idea that you can't con a smart person is ludicrous. She worked for her at least initially because she wanted to keep an eye on and foil Raboneil's plans. Raboneil's communication skills, praise, and compassion did muddy the waters a bit but that is very much a false dichotomy. I don't believe that. If we were all responsible for the bad outcomes of our good intentions we would be in soooooo much trouble. Is the existence of nukes a bad thing? That is a complicated question that neither of us has the authority to answer. I am personally grateful they exist as I could very well not if they did not. I also think you are rather deliberately ignoring Navani's acts of sabotage and the fact that Raboneil is now dead.

That is not what we are talking about. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law but leaving your door unlocked generally does not mean you are complicit in a murder that happened because the perpetrator could enter your building. A driver who has no way to know that a given action might result in a death is not complicit. Also Navani's relative age compared to Raboneil does make her a child. She did this while trying to find a way to avoid collaborating with the fused while captured by the fused. She had previously helped Raboneil create warlight but that was a different set of experiments. You completely misunderstand. If Raboniel had not walked in at exactly that moment Navani would have cracked the gemstone containing her new anti-voidlight and then smuggled her notes out of the tower. No one would have known until Dalinar's armies started killing fused. Baring that Navani could have burnt her notes and waited for an opportunity to escape with the knowledge. Either way working without notes is not a practical solution. You could argue that she is being dangerously arrogant or lacks caution but this does not mean her actions are unethical. I personally don't care what a person feels at any given time only what they are doing. I will not deny that Navani's motives were complex and that her desire for Raboneil's approval was real. Raboneil worked carefully to compromise Navani's judgement after all and was successfully at exploiting her feelings of inadequacy. This does not change that Navani's goals were not unethical nor were her methods(at least in my view). Navani did not actually believe that Raboneil would leave her the tower nor did she ever trust her. The fact that she got played is a testament to Raboneil's skill with people not an indictment of Navani's conduct.

Welcome to the shard. Spren don't need air so they could have just walked along the bottom of the ocean. Also I am not sure they were entirely in the cognitive realm. They could also use boats or just use Syl's method of going into the physical realm and kind of drifting toward their radiant.

Yes it is. In both depending on circumstances. Except the discovery of antivoidlight did not happen during their brief collaboration. It happened when... She was working on warlight not antivoidlight. Different technologies at different times. She also hid her notes and had no way of avoiding preforming the test without Raboneil. Her goal was to create a weapon that could kill fused. I do not think I would characterize Navani's choice as selfish. Raboneil even stated that working under her would give Navani a chance to spy on the work and sneak it to her husband.

No such system is infallible. Vasher delayed the development of other NB like weapons because he got in on it early but he did not stop them. I personally do but we don't agree that no private citizen should ever have the theoretical knowledge necessary to build such a weapon. I am going to use the simpler example of an old fashioned nuke. I agree that private citizens owning them is bad. However if you check your history you might notice something odd. The fact that most nations don't have them is not actually because they are particularly difficult to build but rather because most nations got together and decided by treaty not to build them. Plenty of people still research physics that could lead to practical weaponry of this type. We don't build them because we came to an open agreement not to. A still better example might be biological warefare. Of the vast network of scientists that are(hopefully) about to start distrusting vaccines against covid a large number could probably turn their work to making plagues. However I would not advise stopping all immunologists from researching.

I feel like one of these is necessary. With all the things that happened during RoW we are struggling to keep up. I would like to go over Odium's current plans and address what I think are some common misconceptions. I freely admit I can miss things so rather then just grumble about them privately I will publicize them so that they can be peer reviewed. What is Odium bound by? This one comes up a lot. Taravangian states that he is bound by all previous agreements that Rayse made. We know of two although there are probably others. Firstly Odium made a deal to protect Kharbranth. Here are the terms A lot of people have stated that Taravangian is still bound by this agreement. It seems to make sence. Then you remember this passage in RoW. and I don't really see how it could be still on the books. Stabbing someone does not count as loyal service and since Taravangian is the judge in this case I can't see Kharbrath's protections really mattering. The second deal is a bit more complicated. Wit is safe from Odium's direct harm. Additionally... Alright. We do not know what this contest will actually look like. I personally think it is going to be way more complex then just have at each other with sharp objects. It does seem like it ends in the deaths of one of the champions. Who will be whose champion is a topic of a lot of debate. One particular theory comes up a lot but I think we should go to another chapter for Taravangian's view. That is some serious megalomania. I hope there is a shard therapist out there. Nevertheless I think it pretty well sums up why Taravangian's champion can't be Gavinor. Even ignoring the possibility Gav would not be considered "willing" under the terms selecting him as a champion plays very strongly against his stated goals. Gavinor cannot reasonably be expected to defeat Dalinar in any way I can think of so appointing him puts the ball in Dalinar's court. Taravangian would never willingly do this. Sure he does not think Dalinar would kill a child but he does not know this. He learned the hard way of the dangers of underestimating Dalinar's choices back in OB. Also this method does not really break the agreement it just delays it slightly. What if Gavinor gets sick and dies two years from now? The deal would go into effect then Taravangian's position could conceivably be much worse then. What if Jasnah has him assassinated? What if Dalinar ascends to Honor or even just buys two thousand breaths? I don't think this would work. What Taravangian actually decides to do depends on what he wants. He wants to fix everything and save the cosmere(YIKES!) but we don't know how he plans to. I personally think Taravangian is going to fake loosing in what is actually a tie so he can monitor developments and make a sudden move when he wants to. Something like being his own champion but gas lighting Dalinar into a situation where the answer to the puzzle is the fifth ideal so they both ascend but then enforcing the treaty so that team radiant thinks they lost seems much more Mr T's MO.

I am not sure that we can entirely judge Navani for anything except potentially negligence. None of us know the exact outcomes of our actions and if ignorance itself was a crime I don't know who I would punish first.

Yes and no. He managed to keep everyone else locked down by abusing his own access to privileged information. I should have qualified that statement by saying that it can't happen in any society where almost any research is conducted. Stopping development is an all or nothing game. So if we are arguing the the Set is right what we are really saying is that we want the cosmere to be a group of scadirals that are occasionally nuked by a group of people whose ideology we don't understand.

Knowledge cannot be contained nor can research be stopped. If someone who understands stops others from gaining the power of connections who will watch them to make sure they don't abuse their exclusive information?

Not currently necessary in this thread. We spent a long time on it, after OB's release especially. However we don't have much new in the way of information and Brandon's statement that Ash will be a viewpoint character in the back five along with the fact that we have nothing new on it means it has died down a bit.

In the coarse of probability it is probable that many improbable things shall happen. For one thing Taln braking did not happen on anything resembling an exact schedule. For another Honor commanded the Stormfather to give the visions before his death around two thousand years before Dalinar and Gavilar. Given that at the time no one could accurately predict how much time they had and Honor's poor future sight abilities I think it much more likely that Honor's command was something like "If Odium takes action you must give these visions to a potential bondsmith." Define winning. Humans might have been kicked back to the bronze age but that happened during other desolations. Had Gavilar not been experimenting he would not have been assassinated and the parshendi might not have created the everstorm limiting fused to the old method of returning and granting them only a small group of unwlling host bodies. I believe that the everstorm appeared in shadesmar indicating that the fused would return soon. Odium does not seem to have had much(or any) control over the unmade before the everstorm. I would also think that the Heralds would be much better off if they had Honor helping them through the torture. The spren noticed some of Odium's earlier actions.

True but it is still unclear if there is a one to one correlation between truths and oaths. IE Shallan's second two oaths could both be part of her overall third ideal.

I did not receive that impression. Convenient for whom? Honestly team Odium benefited almost as much as team Honor. Correlation is not causation. How? He was stuck on Braize being tortured when Honor died. I mean technically he did. The vengence pact would never have formed but I don't think you are looking in the right direction.

They are the inverse of cultivation. They allow things to develop in unpredictable ways thus making the cosmere less boring.

A little bit yeah I think it is explored more here.

I personally expect the NW to be the most "laid back", for lack of a better word, of the three godspren. Unlike the Sibling, who takes ivory tower a bit too literally, and the Stormfather who wants to act as the storm(good for him?) I think the NW just wants to learn about people and find clever fixes. Lift would honestly be a great candidate for her bondsmith although she is already a radiant. Anyway I don't we will know much about Cultivation or related for a while. We have not even cracked voidbinding yet and apparently she has her own magic system on top of that.

As previously stated they can't without dropping the protections which leaves them vulnerable. Barely. Would rely on Navani believing she understood or could trust Raboneil. Neither possibility is a particularly good one. Raboniel has no idea how long humans will retain their current edge and understanding. Desolations are called this for a reason. Ten years from now most literate humans might be dead. Additionally she is up against the clock as a move by Odium or Dalinar could foil her plans. It is exactly because she could not do it herself that she embarked on the quest for human input. Even if she does not get the answer in her lap additional information(like the warlight discovery) or even learning human methodology(modern fabrail creation) could eventually give her the pieces she needs to come up with an answer. Finally we don't know what Raboniel was doing to any other human researchers. As has been stated several times you and Raboniel define victory very very differently. In Raboniel's view military advantages are temporary. The fused might keep the tower for the next century and some fused would not even notice the difference. Raboniel is not fighting for Odium she is fighting against the possibility of a continued conflict. All other goals are secondary. If she risks the tower it is because she believes it to be of transient value. Only information actually matters to her. To state it mathematically(because I am a nerd) the tower has value = the integral of a continuous decreasing function well human data has value = the integral of a constant function. Given, as you stated, she is immortal Raboneil should take human data far before the tower. Sauron did not really guard the one place that could destroy the ring because he could not understand someone wanting to. Too be clear I am not stating that your interpretation is entirely without merit I am just saying that in this one spesific instance you are slightly wrong.

Certainly a possibility Raboneil would be interested in. However NB is a kind of unreliable and dangerous weapon. You can just see him starting a fused bloodbath. Also Odium is probably being cadgey about NB's existence and capabilities. Finally there is only one NB and if your war effort depends on holding and using him in battle it does not really change much.

You might want to stick to a single plot line. Themes include failure, imposture syndrome, redemption, worthiness, unfairness, loss, and friendship.

No for one spesific reason. As long as Navani thinks she has a chance of retaking the tower she will actually work hard to help Raboniel with her reserch. The sibling going online is not a possibility as long as they are unbonded as I understand it. Remember the protections did not go back online until Navani bonded the sibling and undid Raboneil's damage. Either way the sibling would have to drop the protections and leave themselves vulnerable as those protection cut them off from the tower. You are also making the same mistake as most others in terms of Raboneil's plans. Raboniel cares far more about her research then any, in her view, temporary military advantage. As such it is worth basically any risk to keep Navani productive. Technically speaking she was only replicating work by other people while logically adding in new capabilities she learned from Raboneil herself. Raboneil chose Navani because Navani was intelligent(not ridiculously but still), organized(used to putting together desperate pieces of information), and had motivations and feelings Raboneil herself understood and could exploit.

Taravangian, Raboneil, Leshwi, Venli, Mraize... For Honor's sake villains should at least be dignified!

That could just be because mistspren are more interested in Sja-anat then most other types but Odium's future seeing affinity is well known. I have posted a better wording of this somewhere else but in summery. The fused don't voidbind they surgebind with void investiture. You could fuel it with Odium's power(pretty sure this is what Kal does when he beheads the Pursuer) but for his own reasons Odium does not want this. As such he created a BS explanation as to why adhesion is not real and made all of the fused cut off a finger and use a base nine counting system(that last part was sarcastic).