Sedside

Well, first of all, I don’t think that being ready to die for something equals taking responsibility. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. Sometimes death is a result of being irresponsible, it happens all the time. Secondly, I don’t read Dalinar’s decision as being ready to die for it, his death reads to me as a side effect of his decision, not something he has deliberately chosen, but maybe I just wasn’t reading it carefully enough. And finally, after thinking about it a great deal, I’ve revised my opinion about it. It was probably my lack of self-awareness that I thought that was the thing I didn’t like. I’m not so good at defining the reasoning behind my emotions as 90% of WaT characters, lol. It’s not passing of the responsibility that pisses me off about this contest, but the way it was written. And I am viewing this from the reader’s standpoint, not from character’s. I mean, the most of us pretty much knew Dalinar isn’t going to survive this book, didn’t we? It was pretty obvious he is going to die, it was all about how it will happen. And to me the way it happened was extremely convenient and anticlimactic. He has faced a moral dilemma, and it turned out that the right decision was not to solve this dilemma at all, but find a way out of it. It undermines the dilemma, the contest, the choice of the champion, the Taravangian’s plot about it, everything. Moreover, the dilemma itself and the way Taravangian handled the contest was the entire reason for Dalinar to come up with the decision in the first place. Let’s do a couple of mental exercises. What if someone else was the champion? Taravangian himself says it didn’t matter, just like he says the same thing to Jasnah after the debate, that he would have taken Thaylen anyway, which undermines the entire debate thing as well. But back to the contest, Taravangian says it is about killing an innocent, but Gav is not just an innocent person, he is Dalinar’s grand nephew and his wife’s grandson. This is the way we, the readers, identify this character. If it was, say, Adin (remember him, right?), it would have been entirely different, and I would definitely be reading it like Dalinar doesn’t want to kill an innocent, but when it’s Gav I read it like Dalinar doesn’t want to kill his relative, just like he didn’t want to punish his son for murdering the highprince. In both cases Sanderson just handwaves the problem by saying «well, this is the right thing to do, so there». If the problem is handwaved, I don’t understand why introduce the problem in the first place. So, if it was someone like Adin, I as reader would at least be sure that Dalinar is genuinely trying to do the right thing, and not just avoid killing his kindred blood. It would have enforced the moral part of the dilemma. If it was someone like Moash, I as reader would be sure that Dalinar wants to do what is best for the cosmere, because he would have to spare the character almost every reader hates to do the right thing. If it was Adolin, it would enforce the emotional impact of the contest, and give us a really cool Retribution Vessel for the back half, but yeah, sorry, I’m talking about Adolin again, I’ll try not to do this anymore. Also, the way it happened, should it have happened on the tenth day exactly? I mean, Dalinar could have come out of SR a couple of days earlier, it’s entirely possible by the world rules, manage to meet Odium somehow and then do the exact thing he did, only without the contest at all? In that case I would have said oh yeah, Dalinar is indeed brilliant, and that would really have been a twist. But no, Dalinar comes to the contest, sees that the champion is someone he doesn’t want to kill, then Taravangian freezes the champion to give Dalinar more time to think, and then Dalinar makes his «brilliant» decision. And in this case Taravangian is dumb, because he has set himself up to fail. And if it’s not a failure, then Dalinar’s decision is not brilliant, because he has doomed the whole planet, crippled all the Radiants, could have killed all spren and Heralds, and all just because he didn’t want to kill his grand nephew. But if his decision is brilliant, then it’s not because he is so good and clever, but because Taravangian has chosen the wrong champion to prove his stupid point in his stupid moral dilemma. But answering your question, in given circumstances I would have preferred Dalinar to kill Gavinor. In my opinion, it would be the only outcome that would justify picking him as a champion from the writing standpoint. But Sanderson doesn’t want any drama in this book, he wants everything to be lackluster and convenient for the plot, so we got what we got.

This is what amuses me too. You can't simply say anything unpopular here, even if it's your feeling or opinion on a character, not a matter of fact, and not get immediately attacked by 2-3 people telling you that you are wrong and this is not true. When people say that they disliked Dalinar's decision and think it is stupid, it seems like highstorms are back. The book says it's brilliant and here's why! Even despite the explanation is spoonfed three times by the book itself. Actually, I do distrust the author now. He has broken almost every single promise he made to me in the first books. There were a lot of things and decisions I thought were strange, but I hoped that they were just a buildup for WaT, it turned out they were not. Also, why should I trust the author who doesn't trust me? I am reading endless spoonfed explanations of what characters feel and why they feel this way and not the other. I am being constantly told not shown everything. So yeah, I don't trust him anymore.

I'm glad.

Agree with you here. I'm also very much concerned about it taking much more cosmere wide turn. As someone absolutely cosmere unaware (Warbreaker and 2 books of Mistborn) I had hard time reading parts of this book. The whole mess between Shards is also absolutely uninteresting to me. When I was starting reading WoK, I thought it was about people in fantastic circumstances. If I knew it will become a superhero comic about gods, I wouldn't have picked it up.

Absolutely my thoughts on the matter. This is a huge problem of this book for me, it looks like filled with a lot of modern messages. And maybe the overall idea of the cosmere was "something is wrong with the Shards", but then there should be other external standard to follow, if gods are not gods. And this book to me screams something like "no external moral compass is good enough, the only correct moral compass is inside you", which is (in my opinion) absolutely wrong and is actually a very modern (liberal?) idea.

Fine. You've changed my 5 years old pretty solid established opinion on his character. Thank you.

I don't mean it to be gendered, I just like Mary Sue more than male variants, that's it

That is exactly what I said I don't like about this book. Taking something good and subverting it into something bad, pretending that it's good. And also pretending that not following oaths is something hard. Everyone always keeps oaths, you know, it's how it works. Everyone cares about everyone else but not about themselves. But it's not good, you have to think about yourselves and not about the others, you should not follow oaths if they don't suit you, it's hard, I know, it's very hard not to keep an oath or, say, refuse to be a king if you don't want to, or refuse to kill a man you hate, it's very hard, noone ever does it, but here we go, you have to take effort and start thinking about yourselves, guys. Protect yourselves first, don't stick to stupid oaths, follow your own wishes. You can pull the wool over people's eyes as much as you can, it won't work with me, sorry. I have my own head on my shoulders and I see what this "subversion" really is.

Yeah, that's what I don't like about this book, because it was not like that in WoK and WoR. In WoK and WoR (and OB) morale was represented like it is - a set of rules driven by some divine / transcendent meanings, that also helps people live together in society. And now all of it is thrown out the window, screw morale and external rules, rules suck, mind your own business and desires, do what you want, only your desires matter, only your feelings matter. You don't want to win a contest by killing someone dear to you? Don't, we will come up with some deus ex machina stupid decision, but then Wit will come and explain why it is brilliant and the only right thing to do. You don't want to keep the oaths you've sworn on the exact same page? Don't, renounce them, you deserve it. Noone will get hurt, your spren will find another Radiant to bond, it's fine. You don't like oaths? No problems, join our Unoathed squad and you will have your superpowers anyway for free.

Oh yeah, 100% agree with you here, I'm glad someone else thinks this is very strange and unbelievable. The only thing I am referring to regarding firemoss, is that is was mentioned in the book, like, hey, we gave him firemoss, this thing is very addictive, hey hey, and then it looks like that it served nothing plot wise (maybe I've missed something). But the same happened to a lot of other stuff in WaT, so I'm sure it will be totally forgotten and will go nowhere. It was like Brandon thought "Adolin has lost his leg, my readers will think why he isn't dying from pain, all right, here we go, firemoss", which is dumb, imo. It looks to me like this firemoss stuff could be completely removed and nothing would have changed. Yes, but this imperfection wasn't overcame by Adolin, it was overcame by Kaladin. He saved Adolin's life three times, and only then Adolin thought Kaladin is worthy of his friendship (I'm exaggerating on purpose). If it was Adolin's merit to overcome this imperfection, it would have been done differently. For example (just example, don't think that's what I would like to see in the book, please), after swinging Shardblade at Kaladin Adolin would think "oh my, that's not right, he saved my and my father's life, I overreacted, I have to apologize and compensate it somehow" and then takes a step toward Kaladin. But that's not what happens. Kaladin risks his own life two more times and only then Adolin takes a step. So it's like three huge steps from Kaladin and one little step from Adolin. That's how it reads to me. I don't view it as Adolin's merit. Btw, I've thought today, how OC Adolin could have fit into the current story, and I think it would be awesome and much better if it happened like this: Adolin and Dalinar fight, Dalinar tries to take Honor, but Honor refuses him, then Adolin kills Dalinar, then some weird realmatic shenanigans, Adolin kills Taravangian and Ascends to Retribution. Now, that would be juicy. I think Adolin and Retribution are 100% match. It's exactly what he did with Sadeas and a lot of other things in his character I think are both of Honor and Odium. I really think it was initial plan for this story, but Brandon decided to take the easier path with all this Adolin worship in the fandom. Hope someone writes a fanfic about it, it will be my headcanon And no, I won't discuss it with you if you don't like it, it's amazing and I will die on that hill Anyways, I'm tired of Adolin discussion, I'm totally aware now that Brandon prefers vanilla mary sue story in regards of him to a good tension, conflict, drama etc, so nothing will happen, Adolin will keep crushing enemies with one little finger of his safeleft hand and everyone will keep praising him for that, it's ok. I'll just be skipping his chapters, if I ever read SA6 Yes, a lot of potential was wasted with both Helaran and Sons of Honor. And Envisagers probably too. I have a vague hope for these Skybreaker dissenters, maybe Helaran is one of them, if he is alive, which to me seems absolutely possible. About Chana - maybe, but I believe he is not her son? And it looks like she was willing to kill her own daughter to make her a Herald... to be eternally tortured in Damnation instead of herself... I don't know...

I'd like to add to the list. All the things about the Calling and Devotaries, that was so widely discussed in WoK, especially Shallan's chapters. Tranquiline Halls and stuff. Now everyone just knows it's Ashyn and abruptly stopped calling it like that and believing in it. What about Purelake and their Wun Makak / Nu Ralik religion? It was no space for it in the last two books and it feels forgotten, maybe there will be something about it in back half. Also, I'd say that the introduction of gods PoVs played it's role too. They've lost their charm as mysterious incomprehensible creatures, they are just ordinary characters (rather stupid I'd say) with superpowers.

I would call it a consequence of Dalinar's idiotic plot device actions

I know one person who was reading it like that (by days, so whole character arc within one day, then other arc within the same day etc), and was absolutely content with it and even thought it was better than the constant PoV switches. I think if I've read it like that it would've probably improved my experience as well.

I don't think it will affect anything if you do it up until day 10 or maybe 9. There is little to no connection between different PoVs even on day 10, in my opinion, actually, all of the connection happens around the contest of champions itself.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

Or a million other options. Dalinar creates a perpendicularity, pulls Gavinor in there and spends another 20 years with him in SR un-brainwashing him. Dalinar creates an SR copy of Urithiru for Gavinor to live in, like Taravangian did with Kharbranth. Dalinar goes to SR alone and spends several months there talking to other Shards and threatening them to give Honor to Odium. There is a whole Pandora's box of options after SR was introduced in this book and what T could do with it.

If you want to know my opinion, I've only felt emotions in one particular moment in Kaladin's storyline (and it's not in the end, it's day 9), though I think I've only felt it because I love Kaladin too much that this book couldn't completely unmake him for me despite all efforts. The second moment was with Jasnah, but this particular moment is very controversal. And a little bit of emotion regarding Adolin, but I don't like Adolin in general, so if you like him you will probably be more pleased then I was. That's it. No more emotions other than cringe and disappointment for me

This. I hoped he was going to be OC, but when I was reading this book I already knew it's not what happens. And so reading his story I was 100% sure he will both succeed with his task and stay alive. Actually, I thought he would also get his leg back, he didn't but whatever, no problem, he will defeat the fused with no normal weapon and no leg as well. In RoW it was Maya who saved him in 20v1 fight, which I also was sure he will be totally fine with, and here his armor spren suddenly protect their sir. Whatever. He had been given firemoss to deal with pain, will he get addicted to it during the timeskip? Of course not. Or maybe he will off-screen, but then we will be just told that he had an addiction but overcame it with his endless power of will because he is so amazing and honorable. He was a womanizer in the past, now he is away from his wife for who knows how many years, he is surrounded by women who adore him, he doesn't like oaths and don't want to sit on the chair until told he could stand, will he be cheating on Shallan? Of course not, because his wandering eyes had magically disappeared when he found The One, and his dislike of oaths is for any oath but this particular one. And as well, because he is honorable and amazing. He is bad with words and doesn't understand Shallan's humor, she thinks he is goofy, will they have problems during years of long-distance relationship? Of course not, Adolin will magically become good with words and gain sense of humor. Because he is amazing. And honorable. Will his Unoathed turn out to be something bad, because oaths are the cornerstone of Stormlight Archive? No, it will turn out that oaths are bad, because Adolin doesn't like oaths. They all could have been points of character growth and a message from author to the readers, but instead we have a message "be born a noble rich prince, manage to be miraculously saved everytime something goes wrong, and you can do anything you want, murder anyone you want, throw any responsibility away, have a happy sunshine and rainbows marriage out of nowhere by arrangement, and your only problem in life will be to choose the right suit to wear today". And he should have been eternally grateful to Kaladin and Bridge Four for saving his, his father's and their men's lives, but what does he do? Swings an unprotected Shardblade at him and kicks him in the chest while wearing Shardplate. Amazing honorable Adolin. And only after Kaladin saves his life two more times he goes for him to prison, where he can have bath, use cologne, chat with Shallan via spanreed, and also he can leave it anytime he wants. And everyone adores him for that. Yay, look how friendly he is with Kaladin, he helped him overcome his hatred for lighteyes! My problem with Helaran is that at this point it could have just been any other random Shardbearer, and nothing would have changed for the story. While at the same time Helaran has so much hype from Shallan and her backstory, and that hype seems pointless too, because Helaran does literally nothing, except for giving Shallan drawing tools, what could have been done by someone else. Though I think this arc is not finished yet (but I don't know what to think of Sanderson's writing anymore, so it can be another annoying red herring or whatever), because Helaran was brought up several times in WaT, and also we have a bit of new info about him being a bastard, I believe. My crack theory is that he can be alive, though it will undermine the possible conflict here. But it looks like Sanderson doesn't like conflicts at all.

A flashback sequence with the overall message "now see what happened" reads more like telling than showing to me. Whereas it was a vision, so it could be considered as "showing", it was a single huge info dump with no real investigation or danger for our characters, like it was in WoK with Shallan and Jasnah discovering the nature of Voidbrinders (investigation), or in WoR with Shallan discovering the path to Narak (danger). That's why I read it as tell, not show, though technically you are right. Ancient democracy was nothing like the modern democracy, as well as the ancient republic. Though I am not going to dive into this discussion, I am not an expert historian, I just had my commonplace feeling about how drastic social changes should happen, and so it felt somewhat unrealistic to me how easily it happened in the book. I will just assume that I am wrong and you are right, this is not the biggest problem of this book.

Really? Wow, thanks, I remember that, but I guess I misunderstood it then. Yeah, it was, it just feels so pretty well established as high stakes of oath breaking for me since books 1-3, that reverting it back to how it was before seems like making it cheaper. Also, Honor was alive back then, so maybe it was still different somehow, but I'm not sure I understand it clearly.

Exactly. And here is where it circles back to the big Adolin hypocrisy. Sure he did the right thing in murdering Sadeas, did he? What if it was not Adolin, but, dunno, Skar? Or any other random darkeyes or even lighteyes. Sure Dalinar would have said "boy, it's all right, we will deal with it, we will keep it a secret and there will be no consequences for you, because it was the right thing to do". Would he? (Natalie Portman is looking at you now) I mean, Kaladin was imprisoned for less. But no, Dalinar was not a hypocrite, he was not the one choosing to protect his family members, but doing the "greater good" choices for the cosmere and Alethkar or whatever. His relatives involved are just a coincidence.

I have two things to say here. First - I am approaching this from a common reader standpoint. I think of myself as a common reader, not a super fan, who googles a lot, reads coppermind and so on. I read the books. I would never have known that WoBs existed, I would probably even never had known that there were other cosmere books, if Brandon had never written that stupid embarrassment of a nonsense the love triangle was. You would never have had me here on this forum, and probably that would have been for the best. Second - I believe some WoBs were proved to be outright lies (or retcon) on multiple occasions already. And so yes, I am not going to count WoBs as something valuable for my analysis of the book's plotline or writing quality. This is a valid point. Though I think that 5 enormous books into the series there were plenty of opportunities to introduce this option to the reader. That one I think I've missed, how the Nahel bond works with the Unoathed (other than Adolin) and what is it based on, could you please hint at where should I look for?

I don't know. I'm actually a little bit hesitant to discuss things like that here, because I'm not any good with realmatics, also not at all cosmere aware, and I always expect to get bombed with WoBs in response I also don't get why Dalinar couldn't just kill Gav, aside from him being his relative. It was not explained in the book well enough for me to grasp it at the first read-through, maybe I'm too stupid for that. Like someone said in the other topic, I haven't done a good enough job reading, lol. Edit: oh, I thought the posts will get merged but they didn't, I'm sorry for that.

Sorry, but I don't read "Adolin killed Sadeas" as "addressing Sadeas's death". And yes, it's a writing issue, not a moral one. Adolin is a one single writing issue. The thickness of his plot armor is unbelievable, and in my personal opinion he is a vile corruption upon this series. Noone can ever make me change my opinion on this, unless the author himself writes a proper arc for him in the next books when I will see him really struggling with something and growing as a person. WaT had some hint at this, but it's not enough.

Honestly, I'm tired to explain what I think of it, I will die on that hill, so let's just agree to disagree.