Sedside

That's what I'm secretly hoping for as well, though the hope is frail, to be honest. It's just an overall feeling for Shallan's plot line in WaT so far. Speaking the Ideal, using substantiation, besting that new Abidi Fused like a piece of cake and now this... I don't know.

Yeah, it felt too easy for Shallan to get out of there. Just armor, Shardblade and Shardshield, a couple of words - and that's it... I would at least expect Ghostbloods to have that anti-Radiant fabrial from RoW or something else, but they were absolutely unaware of what can happen, though they knew Shallan is going to hunt them. And they've even spent a rare anti-Stormlight bolt and let Shallan know more about it. I'm disappointed with this too

Hehe, yeah, I like it too I've watched it 3 times already, and is currently watching for the 4th time.

Well, okay, maybe I'm wrong about the reasoning, but it doesn't change the outcome. The character wants something, he gets it conveniently served on a platter with no consequences. Adolin wanted to kill Sadeas, but it was Brandon who wrote them meeting in a dark corridor with no witnesses around. It was not like Adolin thought 'okay, I want to kill Sadeas, how can I manage to do it and get away with it?'. I would understand if he did it and I would probably even like it, but it was a coincidence. A very happy coincidence for Adolin.

Haha, well, I just don't see it as a punishment. And it's not because he got away with murder. It's because I have some expectations of how a book should be written. I mean, we have a lot of people getting away with murders in this book, and I'm totally fine with it. But in Adolin's case there are just a lot of things going around this murder, and also a lot of thing going around this character, so if this happens, I'll just be disappointed by the resolution, and I don't like being disappointed I guess noone does, lol. I somewhat agree with you here, as it mostly is about Shallan's state of mind and so on. I will have to think about it for some time to word my thoughts about it properly if you are really interested to know them, but I'm afraid it's quite offtopic here Oh, I like these questions, thank you! I mostly address this as an issue of writing. I mean, I have nothing against the idea that someone can kill someone else and get away with it (in fiction, of course), I'm currently re-watching Dexter for instance, lol. But if it happens, and specifially if it's addressed as something important, I want to know, like, how did he get away with it, what was the purpose of this action, what was the message and something like that. What I see currently, if it's left like it is, is just, I don't know, Adolin being used as a plot device? Like, I don't want to leave Sadeas alive for the next books, so I'll make him meet Adolin in a dark corridor and be eliminated from the book. And then Adolin just tells Dalinar he did it, and nothing is going to happen because he is Dalinar's son. Very convenient. It just looks quite dumb in my opinion. Of course characters can stay divided. I mean, there is a conflict set up between Dalinar and Adolin. I've actually seen them having some tension ever since WoK, and currently I see this confrontation heading towards its climax. Sadeas's murder is one part of this conflict, not the only one, but an important one, along with Evi's death. And I think it is a very interesting conflict, very juicy, with a lot of potential for drama and emotional impact on the reader. And I agree with you that there is no resolution for this conflict in world, because there is no correct answer who is right and who is not. Each one has his totally understandable points. So I do see characters stay divided by the end of the book. What I don't see is a juicy, dramatic, perfectly set up conflict being dropped and forgotten. So I think that this issue is going to be addressed, the characters are going to be left divided, and the conflict is going to be resolved by the Contest of Champions. That would definitely leave me disappointed If Adolin's arc is going to keep heading for the same direction it was headed for the previous 4 books, like, you know, fashion boy, happy husband, Maya revival and so on, I won't be reading the rest of the series I know I'm like in the 1% of readers who don't think Adolin is so great and everything like that, I think he is a Mary Sue (Marty? whatever) or a plot device, and I think the only way to save his arc (for him to actually have an arc) is to turn him to Odium. I'm not so interested in magic, worldbuilding and so on, I like it, but mostly as a scenery for characters, their relations and arcs. I can of course see Sanderson doing the opposite from what I would like to see, but that would mean he is probably not my writer. Though from WoK and WoR I thought he was exactly what I wanted, lol. And Warbreaker was also very very good in this regard.

Thank you

Don't "so what" me, please.

It happened a couple of hours ago, in the beginning of Day Two. And it's still Day Two.

If it's true, then Sanderson isn't the author I thought he was, and WaT would be the last book by him I'd read Yeah, I would like to see the implications of this too. I don't think it's likely though, but it would be great to read. I personally read it as just another item in the long list of evidences that Shallan and Adolin have a bad influence on each other and their marriage is doomed Veeery long list of evidences

What I see the important about this topic is not whether it applies to the world rules, but whether or not it applies to what the book implies. I mean, there are no topics titled like "there will be no consequences for Szeth for killing half of the Rosharan royalty" or "there will be no consequences for Kaladin for taking part in a plot against Elhokar". In Szeth's case there is no discourse about it in the book. Noone is talking or thinking about it. In Kaladin's case the discourse was started and concluded within WoR. We already know what author thinks about it and what he wanted to tell us writing this arc. In Adolin's case I see the discourse still going. In my opinion, it can't possibly be a coincidence that Kaladin gives his speech to Moash regarding "murders in dark corridors" and several chapters later Adolin commits murder in a dark corridor. And then in RoW Dalinar says it as well, talking about Adolin murdering a man in a back alley and lying about it. At the same time Wit and Shallan approve of what Adolin did, and most of the other characters are just not aware. What I see here is an issue raised by the author without the proper answer given yet. I see our main characters divided in regards to this issue, with Kaladin and Dalinar being the ones who think it's wrong, and Wit and Shallan (and probably Jasnah) thinking it's right. We can of course keep assuring ourselves that Sadeas deserved to die, the world is better without him, over and over again, but it's not how it should work for the book, in my opinion. I want to know what author thinks on this matter, and this answer should be given with literary devices. As this is one of the main Dalinar's claims against Adolin, then the way to answer this question positively would be showing Dalinar changing his mind or being somehow punished for having these claims. Answering this question negatively should be Adolin facing consequenses for his action, whatever they could be. But just leaving it all like that would equal, in my opinion, to Sanderson saying something like "okay, guys, nevermind, let's forget it, let the topic drop and move on to the more important matters, like Maya revival or whether or not Mraize is a kandra". I wouldn't like to see this happening.

I'm glad you wrote it. Because this is exactly why shower scene can't mean anything in regards of Shallan's possible pregnancy in this book. As you said, maximum what she has right now in this case is fertilized egg. And even if it really can be seen in Shadesmar (I don't know what Brandon thinks about it, so I won't speculate), Shallan won't even notice she is pregnant till the end of the book. Even if her cycle is as accurate as Cusicesh the Protector, it will take 13 days at the very least for her to start being suspicious, unless Rosharan women physiology differs greatly from ours. And why even add this scene, if, as you said, we've seen two more sex scenes in the previous book and Almighty knows how many we haven't seen. But we know for sure there were plenty, as Shallan is very eager for this side of their relationship. So the shower scene can be either a fanservice, or a "goodbye sex". I really hope it's the latter, because in regards of the former, unlike Ala, I do, unfortunately, have a stomach.

Yeah, but it doesn't answer my question, what her pregnancy would add to the book 5 narrative. As you say, there will be plenty of time for her to get pregnant during the time skip, so I just don't see it necessary to make her pregnant right now, other for the drama, in case he dies, or for some 'happy couple' moments, which, in my opinion, we've already had enough in previous books and in the beginning of this one as well. Making Shallan pregnant now just to let Adolin say something like 'oh, Shallan, I'm so happy, I will definitely be a better father than Dalinar!' and then the curtains close, is just... meh.

But he won't have the time to heal generational trauma. He will only have time to say or think it. And I just don't see how him thinking or saying it can bring anything valuable to his or someone else's arc.

I think that this Shallan pregnancy stuff is reading too much into it. I just don't see a point in making her pregnant now, I don't see how it can influence the narrative. If Adolin survives through this book, why do it now? There are 8 days left before the timeskip, why can't she get pregnant in, say, a month? What will it change? Just to add some more 'happy couple' scenes? In my opinion, there are already plenty of them in each of the books since WoR, I would definitely prefer this page space to be spent on something I haven't read enough yet. Like, maybe, happy Kaladin? For the sake of pure analytical approach we can look at the other options. We can imagine one of them not to be happy to hear these news, but it looks like an unnecessary drama and not very Brandon thing to do? If Adolin dies on the good side and Shallan is left with his child, it looks too cliche. If Adolin dies on the dark side, it looks like even more drama and will probably require Shallan and her kid to have a decent amount of character development in back 5, which is not what is intended, I suppose. If Adolin joins the dark side and survives, so if he is a villain in back 5 and there is his child among the good guys, it could be interesting, but again too tropey and dramatic? He is Kholin, not Skywalker. And if they both join the dark side... Well, I don't think it would be a good message for the audience doing that with Shallan's character. Again, I'm looking at all of the options, regardless of how possible or preferable they are, and I don't see her pregnancy enhancing any of them.

I think the Davar family member among the Ghostbloods could be Helaran. I have a theory that he can be alive, I have explained it here.

Oh, that's a thin ice for me to step on I realize I'm in a wast minority here. Yeah, he definitely is a good person as he is depicted now, and it seems like he is reviving Maya. But Kaladin is a good person too, and he was about to fall to Odium in RoW. I won't be talking about what I think of Adolin as a character, as I'm afraid of a hail of rotten tomatoes thrown at me Let's just say that the reasons I see for his turn are mostly logical, based on foreshadowing, my understanding of the book's messages, questions like 'who else can it be for this arc to have a huge emotional impact on the reader', and so on. And yes, the title and the content of the 21th chapter of OB looks pretty much something I can't ignore as well. As for Sadeas's murder, I don't argue it can be seen as a right thing to do, and I would accept this outcome. The thing I see as very wrong about this murder is the way it was committed, Adolin's thoughts about it later, and him hiding this fact and pretending to be investigating it. It is described as an act of passion, rage and fury. And he feels satisfied by the sensation of ramming a knife into the eye later in OB. It's not a Jasnah-style cold-bloodied murder like 'okay, this guy is a threat, I have to eliminate him'. It's a pure affect. So I can easily imagine Odium taking advantage of this side of Adolin's character and pushing him towards the edge.

If by consequences you meant political or legal consequences, then I agree there will be none. And not because it was the right thing to do (which I personally think was not, but not going to insist or argue), but because a year has passed, only 10 days left, and people are just too busy to deal with it, especially during the three front war. Adolin is a skilled fighter, Shardbearer, he can command armies and so on, it would be a waste for the coalition to punish him now. I also don't think that an impending rift between Adolin and Dalinar will be the only consequence of this murder. I've been on OC Adolin train since OB, and I will stay there until the book proves me wrong

I really hope this is not the case.

Agree. Moash is, imo, a good character with well-written arc (by good I don't mean kind, I mean relatable and believable). He is real, as you said, and he is scary because of it. He represents how a single misstep, reluctance to deal with a single emotion or weakness in oneself can gradually lead a person to darkness. And even when he is already in darkness he is still the same old Moash, not some cartoon villain. In other words, his arc is a depiction of a journey to the dark side, and this journey is so smooth, it scares people. We've already seen Kaladin almost taking the same path, he was this close to it, and we understand subconsciously that other characters (real life included) are not immune to it as well. And discussing is a way to channel this fear, I guess.

Well, yes, he had a dead blade, and that's why any assumption he could be alive is so easily dismissed. And this is what makes me obsessed with this guy, lol. Because I have a lot of questions about him, and no answers. It's not 100% confirmed he was a Surgebinder, but there are some hints. Taravangian's interlude in RoW: WoB (very vague but whatever) Also we know he probably was with Skybreakers for quite a long time (~5 years), so he had plenty of opportunities to bond a spren. We also have several examples of Shardbearers that have bonded a spren (Renarin, Eshonai, Elhokar, Shallan with dead Testament, Gavilar maybe). So he could be another one. But the most important thing I don't get is why he is even in the story. I mean, lets imagine that the Shardbearer Kaladin killed was someone else - does it change anything? After that let's mentally remove Helaran from SA at all. Everything he had done could be easily done by someone else or written differently, and nothing would have changed. Also, so many contradictions. What do characters say or think about him? Shallan - oh, he was so good and brave and strong and the best person in the world. Lin Davar - all my sons are despicable cowards, only Helaran was worthy (WoR 73). Mraize - Nale was impressed by him and invited him to join Skybreakers with the display of great power and Shards (could be a lie, but still). What does Helaran do on page? Leaves home shortly after his mother dies, abandoning his family to suffer his father's ill temper, promises to help his siblings, but never actually does, and eventually kills himself against a spearman untrained in fighting Shardbearers and even without Radiant powers. I mean, Kaladin is good, but I doubt someone like, say, Relis would have let such thing to happen. And just a little bit more. Lin Davar ordered him assassinated - why? I mean not even why he did it, but why Brandon wrote it? Just as another proof that Lin Davar is a very bad person? And another detail - on Middlefest Wit told Shallan that he met Helaran, and that he was in Alethkar on that time. It's not exactly but still quite close to the time Tien died. And Mraize was aware about the Surgebinder in Amaram's army, and he also said he was fascinated by Lightweavers. And now let's just imagine, as a crack theory, that Helaran was connected to the Ghostbloods. Maybe he was their spy within the Skybreakers (or even the Diagram, who knows). Skybreakers found out about Tien and sent Helaran after him. Maybe he killed him, maybe not, but he could find Tien's Cryptic afterwards and make a bond. He had a Lightweaver sister after all. And what if then he found out that his father had sent assassins after him? Or maybe it was about Taravangian being aware of him. Or something else. But what if he decided to fake his death for whatever reasons? He could have become a perfect "dead" Ghostblood agent, especially if he was both Lightweaver and Skybreaker. Four powerful Surges. And what's the best way to convince the world you are 100% dead? I think dropping a Shardblade will do. Especially when you don't need one. And I guess if the Blade was unbonded, it would not disappear even if the person holding it was still alive. As a Lightweaver he could manage it perfectly - create an illusion of a wound over his face, escape to Shadesmar after, or fly away if he was a Skybreaker as well. I mean, I'm just imagining all of it, of course he could simply be as dead as it is stated now, but I really want my boy Helaran to still be a factor in this story

Or maybe it could be someone else. There was a character a couple of books ago who had quite the hype around him, he was also supposed to be a Surgebinder, but then all of a sudden he got himself killed by a simple stab in the face from a certain spearman with no training in fighting Shardbearers, which is a strange way for a Surgebinder to die. And then he just disappeared from the plot and everyone forgot about him. Isn't that weird?

Could this speech be moved to Dalinar instead of Wit? Dalinar says something like that in the next Kaladin chapter. Would probably be repetitive, and also there was a need to introduce the Wind to the narrative more properly perhaps?

That's very polite of you to accuse people not sharing your opinion of "taking Rayse's side". 1. I don't think that this thread's concept was to prove Dalinar was right to burn the Rift. The first post is not about it. 2. Characters can say anything they want to say, we have the right to disagree with them and discuss it, don't we?

I was comparing Kaladin and Moash in this particular line, not Moash and Adolin. Well, I guess we will just have to wait less than 2 months and see

Of course Adolin has every right to be upset with Dalinar. I don't think anyone denies it. The point is whether or not he is going to exercise this right, and where it could take him. I mean... Kaladin has every right to be upset with Roshone and Elhokar. Moash has every right to be upset with Roshone and Elhokar. Two characters are in the similar situations, I would even say that Moash's is even much worse, his entire family is dead because of the actions of these people. Okay, so two characters, similar situations, different decisions made, different outcome. Why is noone trying to justify Moash? He had every right for the revenge. I mean, just try to put yourselves in his shoes, really try to do it. Your beloved grandparents are thrown to prison on a trumped-up basis until they die, and you are not even there to see them, try to help them, or say goodbye. And Elhokar is responsible for that, Elhokar who is an awful king, so it would be for the good of the kingdom to get rid of him. After all we now have Jasnah on the throne, so everything turned well after Elhokar has been murdered by Moash. But I don't see a lot of people saying Moash was right to kill Elhokar, and Kaladin was wrong to protect him in WoR. Why is that? Because we already know what happened to Moash later? Well, sure, Moash was down this road for much longer time, he is on the further waypoint in this journey, but the journey is the same, at least that's what the book implies, imo. But when it comes to Adolin, it should be different for him for an unknown reason. Sadeas had deserved to die, so Adolin was right to kill him. Dalinar had done a lot of terrible things, so Adolin is right to be mad at him. But there is no one-to-one dependency here! Someone may indeed deserve to die, but it doesn't mean you have to necessarily kill them. Someone may indeed have had done terrible things, but it doesn't mean you have to necessarily be mad at them. You can make your own decisions. You can choose to forgive a man who did terrible things and to spare a man who deserves to die, you know? It's about the decisions you make and the actions you take, and about your decisions and your actions not being dictated by your emotions or someone else's actions. And we already see the example of the opposite with Renarin, who also has every right to be mad at Dalinar, but he has already chosen not to. He has already chosen another way for himself while being in absolutely the same position as his brother. Is it something we should ignore narrative wise? Is it a coincidence, that we already had Kaladin-Moash arc kind of mirroring this one? We know it didn't end well for Moash, but for Adolin, of course, it would be different, because... Why?