Sedside

I don't accept WoBs as a proof of anything. Until it happens or is mentioned in the book I don't consider it canon. I'm reading a book, not WoBs. I am asking about Unoathed, not Adolin. And also, it's clearly stated in the book that after Stormfather's death Shardblades can't be bonded anymore, or have I misunderstood?

Thank you for this thread and detailed analysis, it is always interesting to know the opinion of a professional! It looks like this book is all about simplifying everything. You wrote in the other thread that the destination of this book is fine, but the journey is not, and I agree with that. We needed to have Herald of Therapy - we got him, no matter how we got there, let's just imagine he invented therapy in ten days and did it perfectly. We needed to see Roshar's backstory, but no time or desire to properly "show not tell" it - here we go, visions in SR with our characters who got there for the first time suddenly being perfectly able to navigate it, while Wit himself is scared of that place. Same with Jasnah cancelling slavery and inventing democracy or whatever she wants to establish there, and other drastic changes in social or religious structure. These processes took hundreds of years in our society with wars, rebellions, assassinations, and so on, but here we go, just a stroke of the pen and all of it is achieved.

I don't think so. Sigzil. I agree that his case is probably the best among them all. I like it myself. What I don't like is lack of consequences. Everyone is alive, Sigzil even got Dawnshard now and also met 12124. So now we know that Radiants can make oaths and break them whenever they want, and nothing bad will happen to either party. Well, Sigzil lost his Windrunner powers, yes, but this sacrifice was immediately nullified by the book itself with Stormfather's death. If we later saw non-Radiant Sigzil in the world of Radiants struggling with his lack of powers and completing his "resurrect Vienta" quest, I would appreciate it, but we know this is not what happens. Szeth. What was his reason to renounce his oath again? Something like "I don't like my spren, go away, I will find another?" Or "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to live quiet and peaceful life"? I don't even know how to comment it. And again, everyone is alive, the only victim is Szeth's arm, but we all know he couldn't get it back because the Stormlight is gone, and anyway his choice wasn't even shown in the book properly to make it look meaningful and have emotional impact. Look, I'm not saying my boy Szeth can't have quiet and peaceful life. Of course he can. What I don't like is the message. To me it reads like "you should only follow your wishes, do what you want to do, don't listen to the second party". I mean, just imagine that spren can break the bond at their will too. Imagine Syl coming to Kaladin and saying "you know what, Notum told me that I can now exist in Physical Realm without being obliged to look at your gloomy face every day, so I'm not your spren anymore, bye bye". Sure Syl would never do that, I'm exaggerating on purpose. The problem is that both parties benefit from the bond, but only one party can break it. And so the spren only relies on the Radiant's honor, whether the Radiant decides they no longer want this bond. And in this book honor was truly swept away, break the bond if you want to, screw your spren and their wishes/feelings, only your wishes/feelings matter. I saw this trend with Moash and Adolin in OB and hoped it will play out differently, but unfortunately it went the opposite direction. Even Moash gets his eyes back and is still alive! Speaking of Adolin, he is at the head of this movement explicitly saying oaths are stupid and telling us the story about a man sitting on a chair for ten years. And suddenly it turns out good to be Unoathed, and they even have blades and armor now. I'm still not sure how it works. Why are deadeyes suddenly alive and well, especially considering it happened before BAM release? What exactly makes a person Unoathed? I mean, if I want to be Unoathed and have my blade and plate, what should I do? Bonding is impossible, oaths are stupid, so how does it work? If a hundred people apply to the job, who gets it? Is it the case I was talking about, the spren deciding whos armor and blades they want to be? Would be nice to see spren leaving in the middle of the battle because of identity crisis or something. And regarding Dalinar - I don't think that oath revoke was a sacrifice either. I'm not sure if it was even necessary for Dalinar to die after he did what he did, it looks like a plot convenience, but whatever. To me it reads like choosing between two bad options and one good (for Dalinar) option, and the ones who are sacrificed here are Roshar and all the people living in it. To me the way it was written looks like Dalinar just found a way not to kill his grand(son/nephew). I understand it's not exactly what happened, but it reads like that. I've described it in "wat disappointment" topic in more detail.

Thank you, that's beautiful, I think I like your review much more than the book itself This part of it in particular. Actually, when I was reading it I've remembered Wit's conversation with the future Herald of Therapy in the 4th chapter. He explicitly said "A virtue is something that is valuable even if it gives you nothing". This whole paragraph reads to me as the enhancement of SA main theme of oaths and honor, and I was expecting it to continue like this throughout the book, so this oathfall in the end looks even more baffling to me now. But I like your suggestion about this twist being a representaion of Honor's death. It sparkles one more hope for the future books in me (though it's probably not good, because I've already decided I have to abandon any hope for Sanderson's writing, but whatever).

Yeah, I agree with this as well. As a lot of people have mentioned in various reviews I've read/watched, this book is all about destination. I do like the destination we arrived at with all of the arcs, including this one, but the journey there was... weird.

Yes, again, I understand this from the characters' points of view, I don't understand it from the writing standpoint. The way it was written and wrapped up felt somewhat messy and underwhelming to me. If he understands he doesn't have to kill Gav, why does he ask Odium to pick another champion? Why does he keep to this conversation about morale? Why does he keep thinking is it the real Gav or not? It is written in a way that it looks like it's centered around killing an innocent dilemma, but then it turns out that picking an innocent for this fight was absolutely the wrong thing to do. And freezing him was also the wrong thing. And Dalinar's decision feels cheap because he was shoehorned into it by Odium's choice of Gav, and not Dalinar's investigation or his honor (not Honor) or something else. But well, I'm repeating myself, sorry. Haha, sorry, I guess it's the end of the year just affecting my memory too much lol. It kinda worked for me, to be honest. I definitely would like to see Alethkar back much more than Gav alive. But yes, my emotinal attachment to Alethkar was built mostly through Kholinar mission, than through Dalinar's perspective.

I'm glad we agree on something finally

Well, it makes sense for Dalinar's reasoning behind his final decision. But in this case it doesn't explain the moral dilemma. Taravangian was talking about killing the innocent, but look, replace "Gav" with "Moash" in your post, does it change anything? Moash is not innocent, but it makes no sense to kill him as well, because of the reasons you've described. And I would have totally understood the outcome if Dalinar went out of the Spiritual Realm with that knowledge and was heading towards the contest already comprehending the fact that he has to find the third way. But he went there, saw Gav and was like "oh, it's Gav, I can't kill Gav, pick someone else". So, the fact that it is Gav, not Moash, is the reason behind Dalinar starting to search for the third option, that eventually lead him to the correct decision! So, in fact, Taravangian's choice of Gav is what made Dalinar even consider it in the first place! So Taravangian's choice of the champion turned out to be wrong. If Taravangian wanted Dalinar to either win or lose the contest, he must have chosen someone Dalinar either would have wanted to kill (like Moash) or someone who was capable of killing Dalinar. But he gave Dalinar the reason to start frantically searching for the other option and also gave him time to do that by freezing Gav! Doesn't this seem stupid to you? Imagine Moash instead of Gav, as much as I don't like Moash OC, it would make so much more sense in terms of the emotional outcome. Dalinar wants to kill him, but he realizes that by killing him he gives Odium what he wants, and he decides to spare Moash to do what's right. Like, he fights Moash, defeats him, raises the sword over him to make the final blow and then suddenly realizes he must not do it, and must instead do what he did in the book. But we are going down absolutely different path. He comes to the contest confident that he must fight his opponent to death, but when it turns out that the opponent is the one he doesn't want to kill, he starts thinking and comes to the right decision. For me, it makes all of it cheap and useless - the contest itself, the preparation for it, and Odium's champion choice with the moral dilemma at its core. The moral dilemma is cheap because in the end the decision lies outside of the moral, but is totally based on the knowledge of the cosmere-wide consequences. The preparation is cheap because it's not the preparation that leads to the correct desicion, but the moral dilemma of the contest. The contest is cheap because the correct choice is to not participate in the contest at all. And at this point I actually even see the poetry in picking Moash as a champion. Kill the guy you hate, but lose in the long term, or sacrifice yourself, break the contract, do the right thing, but let the character everyone hates live. But in the end the choice is between two absolutely bad options and the one undoubtedly good option, which Dalinar eventually chooses.

And only because neither Stormfather, nor Cultivation didn't want to just storming tell Dalinar all of this for totally ridiculous reasons looking like an excuse so we could have Dalinar in the Spiritual Realm.

I agree with everything you wrote, but I wanted to discuss this particular part a little bit more. Actually, I don't understand why Dalinar couldn't have just killed Gavinor. I mean, narratively. What would the consequences be for the planet or the cosmere if he did? Not for his conscience or for the reader's sanity or whatever. It goes along with "tell, don't show" you mention, and yes, it falls flat for me as well. This is the main climax of the arc, and I don't remember the reasoning behind it, because I felt no emotions when I was reading it. So, from logical standpoint, what's the pros and cons of killing Gav? Dalinar says that Odium wins both ways - why? Because Dalinar becomes a bad guy if he kills an innocent? Is this about Dalinar dooming Herdaz and Alethkar just to personally remain a good guy? Because he can't think that people will think he's a bad guy, there will be different opinions among people in both cases, people can't possibly agree on anything as a whole. So, he doesn't want to kill Gav just so his conscience would be clean, am I getting it right? What are the mechanical, policital, magical, realmatical cons of killing Gav? If there are none, then Dalinar is irresponsible hypocrite, in my opinion. He could have killed Gav and then abdicate or commit suicide. Yeah, that would be very very very dark, but that's the path Brandon has chosen, he is the one who wrote OC Gav. The other argument is that letting Odium stay on Roshar is a bad option because it will give him time to prepare his armies for the fight with the other gods and planets, and so Dalinar chooses to give him more power and free him to... do the greater good for the cosmere? So instead of sacrificing a single person, who happens to be his nephew, for the greater good, he decides to sacrifice the entire planet, Stormfather, and possibly all of the spren, if the Heralds didn't reforge the Oathpact (but yes, maybe he saw the future that they will), or the Heralds, if they reforge the Oathpact, but can't avoid torture, for even more greater good? How is it different? What's the point of the whole moral dilemma then? I mean, I can agree with his decision, but the way it was written directly contradicts everything, including his entire character arc.

Oh, well, I can't possibly disprove this ultimate argument, so thank you for the discussion. What I know about deadeyes so far, is that that transformation is supposed to be almost irreversible. In every scene in Shadesmar in RoW every spren says "deadeyes can't talk/think/whatever", but then Maya talks, thinks, whatever. Is there an explanation to this? I've read the first 3 books 4 times, and I don't think I've seen it. I've read RoW two times, also haven't seen it. I don't think I'm ever going to reread WaT, at least until I know the big picture of where SA as a whole is going, so if you have a consistent in-book (not WoB, please) explanation, I would like to see it This is as good explanation as any, and I would be totally fine with it, if I didn't know that the process happening between Maya and Adolin is so unique. Shardblades had existed for how long? 1000 years? 2000? Why haven't anyone ever experienced this same thing as Adolin and Maya? Why are all the spren in Shadesmar so sure that turning into deadeyes is irreversible? There also is a WoB saying that healing a deadeye is supposed to be very very hard. So I want to know - what exactly is this "very very hard" thing Adolin has done? Or not Adolin, someone else? Why Maya is supposedly the first deadeye in millenia to heal? If she it not - why haven't we heard of another such cases? I mean, try to get me right, I am a very logical person. I want to see the cause and effect relationship. What I am seeing now: deadeyes can't think or talk, the transformation is believed to be eternal, all the spren we see are 100% sure about it and are very suprised to see the Adolin-Maya interactions. It looks like the author himself is telling me "look, sedside, something very unusual is happening, do you wanna know why?" Ofc I do! But then there is no answer. It's just happening and that's it. Imagine we had the same situation with Kaladin in WoK. Look, Kaladin is the only one left alive from his initial bridge crew. Look, arrows always miss him and his wounds heal quickly. Look, he survived the highstorm. And then no explanation to it. I definitely wouldn't like it. But with Adolin there is no clear explanation to what is happening, at least I didn't find it in the book, and the only thing we can do is guess. So I think at this point any guess is as good as any other, and my guess so far based on the numerous other Adolin issues in this series, is that Adolin is a Mary Sue. And back to the topic, the case of him having another asbolutely unexplained unique situation of having powers without the need to be restricted by oaths is just another point in the long list. By powers I don't mean surges, I mean something that makes him supernaturally surpass the majority of the population. And he is now actually the leader of presumably the most powerful force on Roshar outside of Urithiru. I worded myself badly. What I wanted to say is that the whole sutiation turned out to be very convenient for Adolin. First of all, I thought the tower was enormous, but Adolin managed to meet Sadeas in it anyway. The second point is that Sadeas, in my opinion, acted rather stupid from that point. He let his guards leave him alone with the man that hates him and has anger issues. Sadeas knows both of this for sure. And if that's not enough, he also let himself provoke this young and armed hothead, well-known for his dueling skills. And then the entire thing hadn't caused any significant bad consequences for Adolin, except for the occasional pricks of conscience or lectures from his father. Actually, he even had good consequences, because this deed gave him an excuse to refuse the throne after Elhokar's death. The throne he didn't want. Another convenience, in my opinion. Oh, with this I agree easily. I understand that Sadeas had outlived himself probably and had to be removed, the only thing I have issues with is how it was written. Rayse-Taravangian switch was written brilliantly. This... He could have been killed by Ghostbloods, or by parshendi, or by Moash (why not), or by another Diagram member, or by a fallen boulder, or by an assassin hired by Jasnah, or whatever else Sanderson could come up with. A heart attack finally. An accidental drop into the chasm. Poisoned chull dung in his stew. But no, it was written the way it was written, and I thought as a reader that there should be more to it, I expected it to be a buildup for something that will follow, but then nothing followed, and it disappoints me. I'm not saying the subplot has no merit. I'm saying Adolin's participation in it had no merit. The way it was written and addressed to further had no merit. Adolin thinking about how satisfying it felt to shove a knife into Sadeas's eye and then becoming a White Knight everyone adores without any noticeable (for me) processing of what he has done. Ending an annoyance? Sadeas wasn't an annoyance for me, and I can cite Dalinar's take on "let's start removing them quietly" here as well. For me the annoyance here is Adolin, maybe someone will murder him as well like that? You know what, I wouldn't like it at all. I want the events in the book to make sense, and this kind of thing wouldn't make sense even if the character removed is the character I don't like. Amaram - fine, I agree, I wanted to see Amaram back. Conflict between Adolin and Dalinar? Great, but have we seen any implications of this conflict? If we mentally remove this conflict from the book, will anything change plot-wise? I don't think so. To me it reads like applying to Adolin this conflict only exists in his head, just to provide his character with something that looks like reflexion or struggles. Like "look, he is not such a golden boy you thought he was, he has a conflict with his father". Regarding his character growth - well, it doesn't work for me either. I don't see Adolin's character growth until WaT, and in WaT his character growth (which I did like and appreciate a lot, and I'm so very happy to see it happening finally) was tied with him fighting among the ordinary spearmen and coming to all these awesome conclusions about his place in the world and so on. To me character growth is about struggling and overcoming these struggles. It's not about musings or doing something convenient for the plot. I haven't seen Adolin struggling with anything in regards to Sadeas's murder. Bonding mechanism for Adolin and Shallan was their betrothal, and, again, in my opinion, they are still not bonded by anything except for physical attraction. And ofc I don't argue with your point about the meaning of this event for the OB storyline. I believe I haven't ever said anything like that, but again, this is probably because my English is too bad to properly express my thoughts.

I don't mind Adolin not swearing oaths. He can refuse to swear oaths and remain an ordinary human like 99.9% of Rosharans. What I don't like is that he both refuses to swear oaths and still gets his superpowers. I read it as a violation of the series philosophy power = responsibility = oaths. Now we have special case for Adolin "you can have power without responsibility". Yeah, that's why I keep bringing it up. I've already mentioned Jasnah and her episode with bandits, this issue had been brought up, but I wouldn't expect any of the people to think anything was left open there. And still it was. And the episode of Adolin rage murdering one of the main villains after conveniently meeting him alone in the corridor right after Kaladin explicitly talks about murders in dark corridors being distasteful not being addressed at all and used just to show who Adolin is and drive a wedge between him and his father? Especially granted it added absolutely nothing to the story, aside from getting rid of Sadead. I mean, we are in the topic about disappointment, and this is what disappoints me. I think it is either a set up for something in the future, or just a very very very bad writing. And I incline towards the latter, otherwise I wouldn't have been disappointed. This explains (vague, as you said) only the last of my questions. It doesn't explain why Maya had started to revive in RoW and even OB. Is there any explanation to this other than "Adolin is just a really very special kind of a snowflake"? Considering the two previous things I wrote, and also a lot of other things about him, I think this is exactly the case. The golden Mary Sue boy gets everything he wants, even if it's impossible within the world's magic system, free of charge oaths.

Because the topic starter hasn't finished the book, but maybe it isn't necessary anymore.

@Asininity, wow, I really like your way of thinking and analysis, would be glad to know your opinion about the other storylines too!

I agree with you so much on this. Though I would probably add OB to the list, the only thing I don't like about it is a stupid love triangle nonsense that should have never been written. I also think @eriwancoselyn pretty well worded my thoughts about the reasons for it, but I still want to express myself as well, because it bothers and disappoints me, and I just want to talk to someone about it. I have put a lot of thought into this issue after finishing WaT a couple of weeks ago. Here is the list of the reasons my analytical mind could extract from the chaos of my emotions. I am going to exaggerate a little, probably, but only to better express the main idea. It’s going to be quite a rant, I’m sorry for that, but I just want to let it out. I have included a TLDR in the end, so feel free to skip right to it if you don’t want to read my lengthy explanations full of current examples. 1. Characters are gone. Instead of characters we now have plot devices, almost indistinguishable from each other. As eriwancoselyn already said, characters are crucial to our investment in the story. We need to be able to identify with the characters, to feel their problems as real, and to see that their problems influence the story in order to feel emotions about what is happening. Problems can be external or internal, but they should exist and we should be able to understand them. Kaladin's inner struggles with his hatred for lighteyes in WoR gave us the amazing chasm sequence and his Third Ideal scene. His struggles with us/them in OB lead to Elhokar's death and major consequences for the world. Kaladin's PTSD in RoW leads to nothing. He just walks around thinking how bad he feels, but when it comes to action he is perfectly functional. In WaT Kaladin simply has no problems at all. Maybe some external ones, but they get solved pretty easily. Like if he kept coming to B4 in WoK and asking them very nicely to train with him, and at the third attempt they would say "all riiight, fine, will do". The same can be said about Dalinar and Shallan, Kaladin is just one example. 2. Climaxes are gone. I can easily remember 5 or 6 climactic moments in WoR alone, but RoW and WaT lack climactic moments, for me at least. In WaT the only two moments that felt somewhat climactic for me were Kaladin vs Nale and Jasnah vs Taravangian. In RoW it was Maya's speech at the trial, despite the fact I don't like Adolin and his arc in any of the first four books. But those aren't even a mile close to "you cannot have my pain", "stretch forth thy hand", or the original "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do". And my favorite "is it really this hard for you to let me win one single argument", of course. I can make an assumption about why this is happening. Somehow the way those climaxes are constructed got changed. True emotions cannot be caused by rational reasoning. If I have to think why in particular this moment has to make me feel something, it failed to make me feel anything. Emotions are universal and general, they penetrate language barriers and even barriers between species, it works the same for the books. I like examples, so let me give one. Let's imagine you have a friend who didn't read SA, or even any of the cosmere, or even any of the other fantasy books. And you try to explain some of the climactic moments to them. Will you be able to explain it simply, or will it need a deep dive into the world? Compare "a young woman has lost her memories due to a childhood trauma, and when her memory is back, she realizes she had accidentally killed her mother in self defense" and "a young woman breaks her oaths for the magical companion that gave her superpowers that eventually lead to her mother's death, and it causes this magical companion to become something like a zombie, and it's very sad, because she liked that companion, and also because her friends would condemn her for this deed, because they have the same magical companions as well, and they think it's very cruel to do this to them". And what I see is that starting with RoW we have almost no climaxes like the first one, and everything that is supposed to sparkle emotions in me either involves a lot of magic, or has to be explained in length. 3. Strong relatable villains are gone. Sadeas was an awesome villain. Amaram was ok, if a little bland. WoR/OB Taravangian was amazing. WoR/OB and even RoW Moash was great. I could understand their motivations, I could relate to them and even root for them sometimes, when they succeeded with their villainy deeds. But this glorious cast is gone. We now have cartoon villains like Lezian, Abidi, WaT version of Moash, and something indistinct like Raboniel and El. I don't want to talk about TOdium in this section, because he is not a villain for me anymore. I, a human from Earth, can't relate to the god of divine hatred who wants to conquer the universe. I can't fathom his godly problems. So he turned into some kind of an abstract evil, spherical evil in vacuum, not a villain with understandable and relatable motivations. 4. Moral dilemmas are gone. There were several awesome hard choices our characters faced in WoK/WoR/OB. The most prominent for me was ofc Kaladin and his Third Ideal. And, again, this is the kind of choice that can easily be explained to someone who has no idea who Kaladin is, what Stormlight is or whatever. And it is a really, really hard choice because the both options are bad even if Kaladin knows he will not die, which he doesn't. Compare this choice to his choice in RoW. On one hand he dies and also lets his father die with him, on the other hand they both survive. Isn't the result obvious? What kind of choice is that - between a good option and a bad option? I mean I understand that he has depression and so on, but it is again the point where I should involve my rational part into feeling something. And so it looks like an artificial obstacle to an obvious outcome, other than something I can fully relate to. I mean, understand me right, I don't undermine the influence of depression, I do have depressive episodes myself sometimes, I just analyze this from pure narrative standpoint. Can we imagine the opposite outcome of this scene? I don't think so, whether I can easily imagine Kaladin agreeing to let Moash kill Elhokar in WoR. It would be shocking, but the story could continue from that point, and if Kaladin had chosen to fall with his father in RoW, his story would just end abruptly and that's it. And also, please, don't tell me that Dalinar/Gavinor is a moral dilemma. It's not. In my opinion, of course. In my opinion this is just an artificially constructed stupid excuse of a dilemma, created with a sheer amount of pure eventuality and magic involved. Even the characters themselves admit it. And the "solution" to this "dilemma" is even more stupid, with more amount of magic involved, and it's an excuse for breaking our expectations for the contest, created using a bunch of deus-ex-machina-like bits of a new information, in order to free Dalinar from the obligation to choose between two distasteful options. 5. Show not tell is gone. eriwancoselyn has already mentioned the mystery of Desolations and Voidbringers, and what I miss the most is the Shattered Plains. It was so fascinating to feel like you are solving this puzzle together with Shallan. I was thrilled when she found out how to get to Narak with a little tidbit from Kaladin. She was also very interested in natural history, and she was trying to study chasmfiends and why they come to the Shattered Plains to pupate. And then... stones tell Venli where to go, and chasmfiends (???) tell listeners their story and about the Shardpool and the fourth moon and... what? I feel like I've been robbed. The same thing with the Wind telling Kaladin and Ishar where to go and what to do. It all feels like an NPC gives our characters a quest, all immersion is just gone. 6. Subtlety is gone. It's related to "show not tell", but I specifically mean it in relation to characters. In the first three books the characters were just doing or saying something, and we had to draw our own conclusions about how they feel or what they feel for each other. It left room for discussion and imagination. Now we have endless passages of characters reflection. "Kaladin felt good" is the first line of the first chapter. And then he goes into nuances of how exactly good he feels, etc etc. All right, maybe Kaladin is a very self-aware person, he is Roshar's first therapist after all, but he is not the only one. Shallan's personas now explain to us why exactly they have been created and which role they play for her character, and she is probably the least self-aware person in the series. I don't even want to talk about all these endless attempts of shoving the message "Adolin and Shallan are good for each other and very happy together" directly into my head. I feel like I am being treated like a stubborn child refusing to go to bed or something. 7. Stakes are gone. Even if we knew our characters couldn't end up dead mid-series, there still were some threats that felt real. Kaladin could lose his bond to Syl forever, Dalinar could give up to Odium, Shallan could join Ghostbloods or lose herself in her personas. But starting with RoW all of the threats were gone. Dalinar and Stormfather's death were kind of obvious, and I've expected at least one (better two) other major PoV character's deaths and at least one of the other major spren. None of that happened. Leyten is not a major character, it feels like an excuse like everything else. Like "someone has to die, let it be someone expendable". 8. Consistency is gone. In the first three books we had a strong moral/ethical basis of oaths, honor, doing what's right, taking responsibility and so on. What we end up with is that someone can commit murders in dark corridors, someone can't, and it's fine. Someone can break oaths, someone can't, and it's fine. Someone can throw away all of the responsibility and kick the can down the road, and the others should carry the whole world's weight on their shoulders, and it's fine. Someone has to swear oaths to gain superpowers, and others can just say "I don't like oaths", name themselves Unoathed and gain superpowers too, and it's fine as well. What destiny is assigned to you depends on pure luck. Someone will say "but that's how the real life works as well", but I don't want to read fiction books to experience the real life. A lot of things can happen in real life, like "(character) went out of the tower and suddenly a big boulder crashed his head, and he was dead instantly". Can it happen in real life? Of course it can. Will it be interesting to read? I don't think so. Sorry for the gore. 9. Mystery is gone. There are two characters I feel very disappointed about in this section. The first one is Wit. Wit was a mysterious figure that seemed ancient and wise, despite his sometimes awful jokes and blunt insults. His modus operandi was to pointwise appear in crucial moments and lightly push some character in the right direction. In this regard he was much more Cultivation-like than Cultivation herself. His stories were beautiful, and they were a puzzle. All of this was vulgarized in WaT. Wit turned into a regular character conveniently bringing bits of information or something else to the plot. He also turned out to be stupid. His insults are even more blunt than ever, especially that awful exchange in RoW with I-forgot-his-name-was-it-Ruthar? Wit brings info to Shallan, talks to Pattern, Wit comes up with those stupid contest terms, he explains the loopholes, he swears almost like I do, and all of his fleur of mystery is gone. The other character is Odium. I mean, listen, do you really think you can properly write something like the power of an endless divine hatred? There is a reason Sauron is written like he is. Yeah, I understand that there is a Vessel and a Shard, and they are not the same, but still, I don't want a god to read like a human in his PoVs, but he reads like a human. He thinks like a human. If you can't write a god to feel like a god - then don't write a god. Leave me a room for imagination to feel evil like something really ominous, not like any other mundane character, only an evil god. 10. What's not gone is the increasing requirement for the cosmere awareness. I’ve already mentioned this in the «unpopular opinions» topic, I’ll repeat it here. I understand that a lot of people on this forum are fans of Sanderson and have read everything or almost everything he wrote, but I’m not one of them. I don’t like Mistborn for instance, but it looks like I have to read it along with another 10+ books to be able to fully grasp the story in SA. Some people said that I can just ignore the cosmere stuff and still be able to understand everything, but then a large part of the book turns into white noise for me. As well as the advise itself is a catch 22, because in order to ignore the cosmere stuff I have to be able to tell the cosmere stuff from the Roshar stuff, and to do this I have to be cosmere aware. I see a lot of videos on youtube titled like «I’ve found all the cosmere mentions in WaT!» and bloggers showing the book stuffed full with bookmarks. It baffles me. Is this why I should read a book? To find the easter eggs from another books by this author? Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I think that everything that exists in the book or series should be relevant for the book or series, and also everything crucial to understanding the book or series should be within the book or series. It worked well in WoK/WoR/OB, even with Hoid/Vasher/Vivenna, as their off-world nature wasn’t known to me right before I came to this forum after finishing OB, and it didn’t bother me at all. But starting with RoW this stuff begun to multiply and actually annoy me. Seons, Ghostbloods, white sands, aviars, hemalurgy, feruchemy, too much of these, while some inner SA plotlines like Helaran’s death at Kaladin’s hands remain unfinished and look forgotten. TLDR: The first three SA books were serious, well-structured, consistent books full of philosophy, moral and ethical questions raised, hard choices, and the stakes felt high. They had interesting and complex characters that interacted with each other and the world and their interactions had implications. They had real struggles, and those struggles influenced the plot. There was a room for imagination and discussion in these books. The villains were good and relatable. The last two books turned into plot driven unambiguous story headed to the one single predefined and predictable direction. Characters no longer mean anything aside from their superpowers. Everything is explained and shoved directly into my head, so I don’t have to solve the puzzles anymore. All I have to do is digest the cosmere-wide plot and read the other cosmere books to be able to fully grasp the story and find all of the easter eggs and crossover. And what conclusion I can make of this analysis, is that it looks like the serious and rather dark series turned into some kind of a graphic novel for teenagers, targeted at people specifically interested in this particular universe and what the author imagined for it. I’m not interested in unraveling the mysteries of some man’s imaginary universe if it doesn’t make me draw important conclusions that can be relevant for my real life by any means. In the first books the universe and magic were the scenery for the characters, in the last books the universe and magic became a thing in itself, and the characters are just the tools used to explore this universe and the magic system, which can’t be applied to real life or any kind of interesting thoughts or reflection. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just I don’t like it, and it feels like a broken promise to me, given what I thought about the series when I was starting reading it and what I’ve received in the end. I don’t know how it will go in the future books, maybe it will go back to the initial tone, but if it remains like this the series that felt like the best fantasy series I’ve ever read risks becoming the most disappointing fantasy series I’ve ever read.

I agree with almost everything you've written in the spoiler tag, except for

Not only him, but him as well. I just don't want to discuss anything more specific in this thread, because the topic starter hasn't finished the book. As for your spoiler tag,

Finished the book, even had a couple of weeks to mentally process it already, and I have the same feeling. Not giving any spoilers, I would also even develop your impression a little. It doesn't only give me vibes of rejecting responsibility and embracing the lie of nuance, it also gives me the impression of passing the rejected responsibility to someone else like a hot potato. Like "hey, I don't want to do it, let someone else do it instead of me". And at the same time the "someone else" is put into a position in which they can't reject this responsibility - and they don't reject it. And somehow this is considered right as well. So for some people it's good to reject responsibility, and for the other people it's bad. What looked like a well structured, wrapped-up moral or philosophical basis of the series turned out to be a huge hypocrisy. In my opinion, of course.

Could you please point the exact timecodes where the actual criticisms start at that podcast? Because I've tried to listen to it for like 1 hour and 10+ minutes, I've soldiered through a lot of things that make me cringe personally, but at the point they decided Kaladin was meh and should retire from the series completely I just couldn't continue listening to this. He and Rysn are probably the only characters I still care about, so it's kinda physically painful for me to hear this, especially from the people who are supposed to have a lot of influence in the fandom.

Most of the characters are divided at the beginning of WoK. They are divided again at the end of WaT. In WoK Radiants started playing their role in the world, in WaT they are no longer a force outside of Urithiru (well except for Lift maybe). Also the symmetry in Szeth's journeys. He starts WoK as a tool for his masters slavishly following orders and killing a lot of people. In WaT he steps away from killing and gets free. Not sure if it counts, but Kaladin in some sense dies for the people he loves in both books. His parents thought he was dead right until he came back home in OB, now everyone with think he is dead as well.

I guess this is about their religion. They believe that they are part of the One, and they exist to provide different kinds of experience for the One. You can read Ym's interlude in WoR, it's described pretty well there.

My problem with this explanation is the example of the other books. There are plenty of things in WoK, WoR and OB that are important for the next books, but none of them feel like dropped there just to be there, because it has to be introduced. It's either hinted at and feels like something crucial for the story, but not taking too much of our attention and anticipation, like the Thrill in WoK/WoR, or if it's fully introduced, like the Unmade in OB, it's been immediately used in a satisfying way. Ba-Ado-Mishram had a lot of hype for a couple of previous books, and the buildup of this book was centered around her as well, Ghostbloods want her, Shallan wants her, the Recreance is about her, she threatened to kill Shallan's loved ones and so on, and in the end we get nothing. If this is a buildup for the next books, it looks like a huge cliffhanger for how long? decade or so? This is frustrating. The shardpool is less frustrating, but more confusing. It looks like a sudden info bump coming out of nowhere leading nowhere.

I had the same vibes from it too. Also I wonder if the Death Rattle about "standing over a body of a brother" was fulfilled.

Sorry, but I read it differently.

I have complicated feelings about this book, because for me it felt somewhat disconnected. There are things I absolutely loved about it, things I was somewhat indifferent about, and things that made me cringe. I’ll start with the things I liked. 1. Shinovar arc. It was amazing from the beginning till the end. The ending was not a surprise for me, I was sure Kaladin is getting some kind of immortality (born onto eternity hehe), but it still was done in a very good and satisfying way. Also loved the way everyone will probably think he is dead now. It sets up a huge potential for his dramatic appearance in the second half, that could be even more spectacular than his joining the Narak battle in WoR. Szeth was my second favorite character since his first interlude in WoK, and I loved him even more in this book. I also always liked Nale, maybe it’s my weakness for tall imposing dangerous guys in black uniform, but whatever Their company was adorable - Kaladin, Szeth, Syl, 12124, Nightblood, Nale, I enjoyed their interactions, and Kaladin’s fight and the following conversation with Nale is my favorite sequence in this book. I will definitely reread this arc in the future someday. 2. Jasnah. This is my second favorite after Shinovar. I reveled in her dialogue with Taravangian, that was probably one of the most satisfying villain-protagonist interactions in the series for me so far. 3. Surprisingy, Adolin. I never liked him, he always read to me as a plot device and kind of a marysueish golden boy getting everything he wants with no efforts, having no prominent struggles or character growth. I was yearning to see something that would make his character make sense to me, and I got it in this book. I’d still rather him be OC, but the way it turned out is somewhat satisfying for me too. I loved him fighting among the ordinary spearmen and his musings about it. Also loved the way he found his inspiration in Kaladin and b4. I can’t say I liked Azir arc entirely, but Adolin’s inner struggles were nicely done, and I’m glad to finally have some sympathy and compassion for him. 4. Rlainarin. I loved these too! Their interactions and the buildup of their romantic relationship was so sweet, I was smiling like an idiot every time I was reading it. Neutral: 1. Shattered Plains arc. It felt… messy. Fight-fight-fight, some expendable characters dying (Leyten, I feel so sorry that it has to be you, my love), retreat, then some kind of bureaucratic manipulation - and the good guys win. Well… okay. The new variety of Fused were somewhat… useless? Or maybe I just don’t get it, but I honestly kinda don’t care. 2. Roshar’s backstory. I’m not a huge fan of worldbuilding for the sake of worldbuilding, and I can’t say there was any kind of big reveals in it. It’s nice to know what happened in the past, but it’s not like there was anything stunning about it. The only things that sparkled some emotions in me were the cause of the Recreance and Tanavast’s death, and a glimpse of Taln’s backstory. I’m looking forward for his flashbacks now too. 3. Taravangian’s interludes. They simply… were. Taravangian was an impressive and dramatic character for me, but in this book he felt just another bland villain. Him destroying Kharbranth felt somewhat like just for the shock value, and it was reverted in the end anyway, so it turned out somewhat cheap eventually. Didn’t like. 1. Shallan. She was probably the most complex and intriguing character I've ever read. I liked her in WoK, adored her in WoR, was confused and intrigued with her in OB, but then it looks like Brandon has lost her. Her RoW arc felt kind of empty, especially when it turned out that all the spy, Ialai murder and Formless stuff kind of went nowhere. But there still was hope because of her remaining secrets and the Ghostbloods affair. I felt hope when Formless appeared again, I was like "aha, this is not the end of Formless, I knew it!", and then I was so hugely disappointed it turned out to be Iyatil. The Ghostbloods plot was failed spectacularly, even the potentially complex interaction with Mraize turned out to be yet another murder. All of the building potential was just wasted. What about this "I kill all of my mentors"? It was solved by "no you don't, it's ok" - and then she kills her mentor. No Fifth Truth as well? So far, her 4-5 books arc can be summarized as "you have a problem? it's not a problem, forget it". And what was Testament needed for? She influenced nothing, she was just there and that's it. Overall, it looks like Shallan just moved from point A to point B, removed the Ghostbloods from the book, and got pregnant. Her whole arc can be described as "she loves Adolin, her mom was a Herald", and that's it. And, as I've already said in previous posts, I absolutely despised her treatment of Kaladin in her wedding flashback, and honestly I hate her for that. I've never hated any SA character previously, not even Moash or Sadeas, I actually liked Sadeas. But Shallan managed to do the impossible thing and make me hate a fictional character. I'm very upset about it and hope it will change in the next books, but for now I just can't believe that I could have started liking Adolin and hating his wife. That's incredible. 2. Ba-Ado-Mishram. What was it all about? Why were Ghostbloods seeking her? What did her release mean for Roshar? What is so scary about her? What were her endless threats about? So much buildup turned out to nothing. 3. Chana. I understand that this reveal could have been stunning if some clever Sharders haven't figured it out, but then what? How did it influence the story? Shallan was like "okay, I've killed a Herald and started a Desolation, stuff happens, let's move on and think about Adolin a little bit more". 4. Tons of another potential buildup turned to nothing. Anti-light? It was so threatening, so many possible dangers coming from it, but eventually the only thing it has accomplished were the perpendicularity collapse and Leyten's spren death. Kaladin's rock? Not even addressed. Lucinthia joining the Windrunners? Forget it. Abidi? Another comic villain. El? Did nothing. Dai-Gonarthis? Ultimate is on cooldown, chill. 5. Sudden rules revision. We can't release Odium from the planet because he is so scary and can kill all the Shards, but then suddenly we can, and somehow it's a brilliant decision. Heralds are being tortured in Damnation between Returns, and it's the sole core of the Oathpact problem, then suddenly there is a solution for that and it's not necessary for them to suffer. Spren can't have sapience in the Physical Realm with no Radiant bond, then suddenly they can, because people started thinking about them. Somehow they started thinking about them on the third of the Final Ten Days, and not during the year of timeskip between OB and RoW. Why weren't they able to do it before Recreance then? Weren't people thinking about them then, when the world was flooded with Radiants? Being able to get to the Physical Realm was the sole reason for spren to form a Radiant bond, but why should spren have these limitations, obligations to turn into weapons for Radiants, being unable to enter Shadesmar when they want, if they can experience the Physical Realm on their own when people think about them? Deadeyes can't talk or think, but suddenly they can, and there is even no explanation why. And now they can even act like blades and plates for Unoathed. We need an anchor to move between visions, then suddenly we don't. 6. Introduction of the Shard pool on the Shattered Plains. It's just poorly written. First, stones tell Venli to go there, then we are just being told about the pool, the fourth moon and other stuff. It looks like a bit of new information just dropped on us from nowhere, and it looks bad. It also goes nowhere, at least within this book. 7. Too many loose ends. What's up with Helaran? Shallan's father's prophetic lullaby? Boots meme? Sadeas's murder? Musicspren? Puuli's prophecy? Girl Who Looked Up? Chasm sequence? Tarah? Shallan's other brothers? Rock? Cord? Sons of Honor? Envisagers? Of course there always is a chance that some of these things can be addressed in the future books, but it's a long wait, and it feels a little frustrating to have these questions handing in the air. 8. While there are a lot of totally unaddressed issues, other issues just feel repetitive or simply unnecessary. Adolin teaching Yanagawn to fight in Shardplate? But we already know what Shardplate is, why do it again? Over nine thousand names of towers game rules no one will ever remember. Dalinar struggling with the same morale problems again and again. Everyone saying how amazing Adolin is. 9. Reversal of the things that shouldn't be reversed. Dalinar had already dealed with his flaws and sins in OB, but suddenly they come to the stage again and deal drastic amount of damage. This is just inconsistent storytelling. We have the Herald of Second Chances in the very same book, and here we get a message that no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try to atone your sins you have no way out. Moash getting his eyes back and even getting an upgrade? It totally undermines his arc in RoW and turns him into a tool, he is not a character anymore. 10. Gavinor. This was just so storming bad. The only piece of foreshadowing is the Death Rattle. No emotional impact at all, who the hell is Gavinor? Who would have cried if Dalinar had just killed him? It all felt so synthetic and so anticlimactic, I don't know. And the way it was settled? Gavinor just randomly getting sucked into SR and stuck there? I don't know the proper English idioms for this kind of thing, but it was just performed in the most unsatisfying of ways. The whole central conflict of the first arc of SA is a sorry poorly written thing. And also what kind of message is this again? The poor kid was born in this family. His parents neglected him, his father was killed, he was being tortured by evil spren, and then what? He gets involved into some kind of a cruel play between the opposite forces, and he is just a helpless victim, a pawn. Is it what we've been waiting for during all these years? What a shame. Overall impression is chaotic. While some arcs were well structured and brilliantly written, others look like a complete mess. A lot of new things brought to the table, while the old things are left forgotten, or undemined, or turned upside down for no reason. Concluding, I can't give a rating for this book as a whole, so I'll split it. Shinovar - 15/10, Jasnah+Adolin+Renarin/Rlain+backstory - 8/10, everything else - -5/10. But if I have to rate it as a whole, it will be my least favorite SA book, overall SA rating for me being WoR -> WoK -> OB -> RoW -> WaT.