Sedside

To Kaladin: "Consider mating with ardent. Prince will get the girl regardless."

Man, I'm in love with this Kaladin! And seriously nicely done! I wish I could draw this crustacean limbs so well on my Invertebrata zoology lessons

Favourites - obviously Kaladin, I agree with WindsAlight here, he is so far my favourite fantasy character (well, Ged from the Earthsea can compete for me, but he is too flawless) and Szeth. I loved Szeth at first sight, though he seemed a little bit imba to me and I was afraid of it, but it turned to be all right. I think I just have a weakness towards lawful neutral characters. I was truly impressed by his story and can't wait for his flashback book. He really didn't want to kill all those people and hated himself for that but could do nothing, because he had to obey his master. And he missed Shinovar, and thought about stone and his own changes and this is all so awwwwwwww Less favourite obviously is Malata and less obviously Renarin. I like him, just less than others. But if Adolin becomes Radiant he will take the first place of my despised Radiants far ahead of Malata. I just don't think this guy deserves that, sorry, Adolin fans He is nice as a character, but Radiant... Please, no.

31 and I read it to my 4 y/o son. I read it in English, and he hasn't yet learn it so he doesn't understand anything, but Dalinar already seems to be his favourite character

IIRC, he brought her food when Palona asked him. I've already posted my opinion about this "shardblade education" before, I don't think it is love. It is Adolin's selfishness in order to make her do something he loves, but not something she needs. About defending from Dalinar - can you quote please? I don't remember this moment. I don't mind of love being shown in actions, if we didn't have Adolin's POVs. But we have them. And I don't see any signs of love in his POVs. Even when he sees Shallan he only thinks about fashion, not a single thought of her being beautiful or something. Storms, he thinks Syl is pretty! He adores Kaladin! But no emotion towards Shallan? He describes Janala or WoK. Why no such things about Shallan? Almighty, why? Sanderson forgot? Really?

Hah, that's what I mentioned in my long post. What characters say !== what characters think. In Shallan's case it is even worse though. Kaladin says he doesn't love Shallan, he doesn't think it. It's my another favourite topic, actually. Some people think, that he really thinks he doesn't love her, some people say that he is lying to himself. Well, I think neither of this is true. I think, he has enough self-awareness and self respect to understand that he loves her. He isn't lying to himself, he lies to Syl. That's my opinion. During OB we have at least three conversations between Syl and Kaladin regarding Shallan. I won't give quotes now, you can find them if you want. First time is in Alethkar, when she first asks him about Shallan, and her "words strike uncomfortably close to the truth". He wants to finish the conversation and replies honestly - she is betrothed. Syl insists, so Kaladin changes tactics and says something like "she is lighteyes, end of conversation". When did he ever (post-chasms) think of her being lighteyes? It is pure excuse. And he is quite rude here with this "end of conversation", but whatever. Second time they talk about Shallan in Shadesmar (IIRC), and he tries another excuse - something like she brought her maid to brush her hair. This is just ridiculous, I would never beleive Kaladin could really think this about Shallan after chasms. He is not such an idiot. And then we have this final "I didn't love her" revelation. Again, this is said to Syl. When she again started talking about Shallan. When Shallan is kissing Adolin in front of Kaladin (well, below, but who cares). Kaladin says - "she made her choice". He respects her choice and understands there is nothing he can do about it, this is her free will. He also respects himself to understand that he must deal with it and find something else to do. Or someone else. But Syl doesn't understand it. She insists that he has just lost a round and has to continue. He just doesn't want to speak about it, but he also doesn't want to be rude, so he lies to Syl that he didn't love Shallan. And then he makes a virtuosic hook with a stone and "she reminds me of someone". Not "she reminds me of my brother", but "of someone". He uses Syl's curiosity to change a topic gracefully with this stone and with this "someone". This is my opinion, but I am pretty sure that i) Kaladin loves(d) her and ii) he understands it clearly and doesn't lie to himself. It is, for me, one of the best of his moments in a book, beautiful and strong and it convinces me that he will be all right with his love life eventually. Well, I don't appreciate lying to Syl, but in this moment it was what he chose to do to close this topic.

I would much appreciate any quotes showing Adolin loves Shallan. Kaladin loves her - I can see it in his POVs, Dalinar is obsessed with Navani - I can see it in his POVs. Adolin? Totally indifferent. Syl is pretty, Azure is interesting, Shallan? Well, probably woman can look good in trousers.

What do you mean by the opposite? She doesn't love him? I don't think so. Well, maybe she doesn't "love" him, but she definitely needs him. She thinks so. And if you mean I could write "he loves her" - no, sorry, I don't see his love all way long through OB. Not a single sign of his love.

Oh, storms, this is one of my favourite topics, I really could write an essay about it. Because I think that as written it's clear that Adolin doesn't love Shallan at all. I've read through all his POVs in OB in order to find something that could convince me in the opposite - but no. He thinks about how amazing Kaladin is, he thinks Syl is a pretty girl like three times in Shadesmar, but Shallan? Well, her cut isn't flattering and perhaps a woman could look nice in trousers. That's all. I would very much appreciate any quotes of his thoughts that could confirm that he loves Shallan, can you? And I would stress it - I want his thoughts, not Shallan's thoughts about him and now what he says. Because what character says and what character thinks is not equal (another interesting topic, won't talk about it now). But all right, it is hard and time consuming to analyze every single POV and every single dialogue, so let's just analyze the monumental scene in alleyway. So, let us imagine that it is not Adolin and Shallan, but just some random people. 23 or 24 y/o guy, who is, well, much likely a virgin, but pressed by society, his family and his debt to make a heir, and a random 16 or 17 y/o girl, with whom he is presumably "genuinely in love". Can you? All right, so he is genuinely in love, but he sees, that she is probably in love with another guy. So he is going to make a very hard desicion, which will require all his strength and power of will to refuse this girl and let her go. So our hero meets this girl and here we go: All right, up untill now our infatuated hero is struggling with his passion and trying to make everything right. But suddenly: Well, perhaps the guy is shocked and doesn't beleive his happiness. Maybe he is a little bit stupid, because she has just bombarded him with compliments and our infatuated young man still doesn't get she is speaking about him. Let's forgive him for that for a while: Our girl sees that she isn't convincing enough for this young infatuated guy with her million compliments so she makes her final headshot. Headshot worked, he grabbed her. Surprisingly for a 23 y/o man, who never has sex before. But then: I guess, this is exactly what young men in love say to their beloved after they were very close to losing them forever but then suddenly they didn't. What can our girl do to keep this man, who genuinely loves her? Oh, come on! Are you still trying to find excuses, you, guy-who-is-geninely-in-love? Where is your relief? Your happiness about your beloved still being with you? For storms sake! Two more lines from this infatuated man saying he doesn't feel good about the girl who he is so passionate about. Is this man really so stupid? Does he know what "love" means? Allmighty above, he said it! He wants me! All right, he really loves me! Pheeeeew! And as a final accord he wants me to kiss him again. He doesn't do it himself, he is too shy to do it, you know, this prince, to whom I have already said hundred times how much I want him and love him. He wants me to do all the job, all right. Sure, Adolin loves Shallan. No doubt.

I know, it's just my new year wish

Adolin dead, Sadeas resurrected. Sanderson, please!

I think Sanderson is great at writing characters. Well, maybe not perfect, but Sadeas was just awesome. After Sadeas I can forgive almost everything It was probably like the first time in my life when I could really understand and empathize villain. I doesn't mean that I liked his actions in book, they were terrible, but I enjoyed how he did it and why he did it and his interactions with his wife. Storms, I kinda applauded his move at the Tower!

I haven't said that I want Veil to be with Kaladin. The only thing I was talking about was the way I interpret the WOB we are discussing here. I don't want Veil to go out with Kaladin, well, it would be funny, perhaps, but the consequences may be so awkward... All I wanted to say is that the "choice that Shallan made" is not what it seems in my opinion. How it will be dealt with in the book - we will see. Maybe (maybe!) it can be something like "Shallan fails the reintegration quest and Veil takes her place in the driving seat". Again - maybe. But I totally agree with the idea, that both Shallan and Kaladin have to deal with their issues before Shalladin can gracefully sail into sunset with a flying fireplace around it. Or not. Whatever There is such term in psychology, I'm not sure how to name it correctly in English - individual boundaries probably? Well, the idea is that you should treat individual as like he or she is an adult and knows better what he/she needs, feels or thinks. This logic "I know that she should learn how to use shardblade because she needs to be able to protect herself without Stormlight and I don't care if she is terrified by the idea of holding it, I know better what she needs" is the exact violation of her individual boundaries. You want to teach her? All right, suggest it, look at her reaction and if she is not shining with enthusiasm - change topic. That would be the correct empathetic behaviour in this case. Oh wait, but he wants it so much! He is so obsessed with swords and his art and wants to make her part of his hobby! Well, he can go to Damnation with his "wantings", because the fact that you want something badly can't justify anything. Otherwise sexual assault is all right. And please don't get me wrong, I don't say this because I dislike Adolin or I mean that only Adolin should behave like that. This is his character trait, it's normal to be like that, there are a lot of people who do this kind of stuff in real life either. What I don't get is justification of this behavior and saying that this is exactly what love should look like. Actually, the what Shallan does by forcing Adolin into marriage is quite the same. She doesn't want to listen to him or take his concerns into account. She treats him like a little boy, who doesn't understand his happiness. Actually, she does it out of selfishness (again, my opinion), because she needs desperately to glue to him and she doesn't care what he needs. And Adolin is not just determined enough to say "No", he isn't even fluent enough in bridgeman grunting. Just like Shallan can't say "No" to his attempts to teach her swordfighting. Actually, sometimes it requires strength and courage to say "No", I think you understand what I mean. And this is one of my big big reasons to think, that this marriage will turn to a disaster. My biggest disappointment is that there are other characters in the series who have pretty good boundaries, well, Kaladin is one of them, in my opinion. That's the reason he is a leader, not because of his radiantness, and this is the thing I find very, very awesome in this series, that characters gain their superpowers because of their individual traits and choices they make and not because of luck, mutation or whatsoever. And then I see this kind of plot twists and it blows my mind. I am just like really? Sanderson created such deep and complex characters, written such fiery dialogues and then try to sell me this OB ending as a happy marriage? I am rereading WoK and, well, any Kabsal or Yalb scene have much more chemistry and fire in them than the whole Shadolin stuff combined. Therefore, considering all of my own and awesome forum members' analysis I've come to a conclusion that with probability 99% this is not a bug but feature not an ending but a twist. I leave 1% only because I see, how many people are surprisingly satisfied with it and think that Adolin is a great guy (well, he is actually!) and really loves Shallan (which I by the way also don't buy because, well, he doesn't, and that's again IMO) and they will live happily ever after.

Am I the only one, who actually loved Sadeas as a character and was quite upset with his disgraceful death?

As soon as my Shalladin ship is stuck in a dead sea without supplies, I am going to gather a rescue mission on board Jasnadin fregate perhaps with a little help of Veiladin trawler and/or Taradin coggle. Sailing before landing, comrades.

Hello all! I've never participated in any forum discussions regarding any books, but this particular arc in SA left me with so much disturbance that I just can't resist. I haven't read any other BS books, so I have no idea of "how poorly he handles romance", "arranged marriages always work out" or whatsoever. I've read two whole triangle discussion threads in their entirety of 96 + 14 pages and yes, I'm really that annoyed with how it was "resolved" in OB. I have a lot of things to say about it, but I don't see any ongoing threads and don't want to start offtopic here. So I will reply to this: Well, you know, I don't care about this "trope" stuff, I would enjoy any trope, in case it's written in interesting and beleivable way. But if this OB ending was really meant to be sold to me as a break of "male MC gets the female MC" trope you are pointing at, then perhaps BS isn't my writer. Because I just don't beleive it. Whatever fantasy we are reading, human psychology must work pretty similar to the real world, and Sanderson was handling it incredibly well with addiction and depression so far, that's why my mind is blown by this romance arc. Regarding the mentioned WOB (what does this abbreviature mean, btw?). I've also found this one: He says "three and a half", probably he means Veil as a "half"? This makes me think that a WOB about Shallan making a desicion is pretty much the same thing. "Shallan" made a desicion? So did Veil. "Shallan" won't change her mind, but, come on, who said she is the boss here?