Sedside

All right, I will try to explain again. You can come to your superior and say “hey, you are doing your job poorly, do better” - this is not a responsibility. It’s a critique. You can say “hey, you can do your job better, you just have to do the following: …” - this is not a responsibility. It’s an advice. Both advice and critique are fine, is case you are asked for them. Dalinar didn’t ask Adolin to criticise or advice him. But you can also come to your superior and say “hey, we can improve our work, we just need to do the following: … I’m ready to take a lead on the implementation of these improvements, if you find it acceptable.” And this is responsibility. Not only saying something, but also doing something, or at least being ready to do something. Generals don’t speak to Dalinar this way not because they are irresponsible, and Adolin didn’t speak to Dalinar this way because he is brave and responsible. He dared to speak to Dalinar this way, because he is his storming son. What would Dalinar do to his son? Renarin respects his father, that’s why he doesn’t speak to him about it, not because he is irresponsible. He supports his father (as well as his brother, by the way) and doesn't want to make him feel worse. But the fact that Adolin did it actually make this action even less responsible. Not only did he come to Dalinar with an unwanted critique, but he has also used their family relations to do so. Taking responsibility is accepting to take a burden. What burden did Adolin take with this conversation? None. He only placed an additional burden on his father’s shoulders - the burden of “even my son thinks I’m insane, maybe I should abdicate?” Well, the problem is that people don’t mature, if they don’t take responsibility. The process of maturing requires it. It’s like growing muscles, you can’t say “I’m not ready to go to the gym, I’ll have to wait until I grow some muscles, and until that happens I will keep laying on a couch”. Maturing is about taking a little more responsibility each time, then you are comfortable with. Yeah, maybe becoming a king is a little too much of responsibility to Adolin, I agree. But if he hadn't been denying his responsibilities repeatedly, if he had accepted him being in line of the throne inheritance and not “hoping it will never happen”, he would have probably been more mature now and maybe even could be able to take the throne, knowing that his smart relatives will help him. Yeah, I agree with everything you say here.

Yeah, it was Adolin's wording, from his PoV. Maybe it's the part of his vocabulary, as he also tells Kaladin in WoR to "stop leering at her backside" on the training grounds. I'm not sure, that was what Kaladin was really doing Indeed. The other thing, that also miraculously disappeared at almost the same time (somewhat after Radiant council and being chastised by Jasnah for sketching Kaladin) is the whole Helaran issue. She just says "don't think about it" and that's all, gone. I hope it still has to be addressed in the future, as otherwise it is also something that seems absolutely unnecessary.

So, I provide you with 7 quotes and my analysis of them, with logical reasonings and so on, and you just say "I disagree with you" and that's it? Well, I agree with @Alderant, this is indeed very frustrating. Good luck with your theories, the book will arbitrate us. I totally agree with this. I would also like to add, that in my opinion, the language he uses in this whole dialogue does not seem to me as words, said by a genuinely infatuated man, who was about to make a hard decision and let go of his beloved woman to make her happy. And then, when she refuses to go, he doesn't seem happy and relieved. He continues his weak objections, like "that's worrisome", "world is full of Heralds" and so on, like he still tries to "get rid of this girl", he is just not sure and lets her convince him. And in the end he generously and somewhat lazily allows her to kiss him again. Is it how Sanderson thinks infatuated men behave? Thank you for reading my post and trying to provide arguments in turn of mine, I really appreciate that. Though, I can't agree with this statement. I really don't understand, why people keep saying, that what she feels to Kaladin is "visceral passion" and "sexual attraction", whereas it is something different to Adolin. Adolin is the guy she admires for his appearance - hair, smile, voice, arms and so on. She repeatedly says in the text, that she wants to kiss him (application for tongue), defitely wants to mate with him, rip his shirt off and so on. Whereas in Kaladin she admires his personality - determination, resolve, contained passion, leashed anger and so on. There are, I guess, only two places in the text, when she notices something about his appearance - "there was something about his curly hair" (or something like that, can't provide a quote now, it was on Radiant council in OB, prior to the sketch), and "storms, he looked good with beard", after which she immediately thinks, that this beard strikes his overall image of contained passion (like a wild spren of passion, trapped within oaths and codes). To me, those are descriptions of a very deep personal love. The ability to contain passion is not about sex, it's about having the fire inside you, but controlling it with the power of your will, which is extremely magnetic trait in people. It is not about "I want to have sex with this guy". This is "I admire this guy's personal traits". To understand who she is she first of all needs to confront it, but she doesn't confront, she runs from it. She says "they were not her, she was occasionally them" about Veil and Radiant. She pretty much already decided, that she is not Veil and Radiant. Also, if you need a safe place to recover and reflect, why marry? Marriage is something that is considered irreversible. In case she only needed a temporary shelter to recover, she could have just continued the courtship, use Adolin as a comfort provider, become whole and then make a decision, after also storming talking to Kaladin once. But she doesn't even talk to him. She runs. As well as from Jasnah and painful memories. To learn something you must do it. To learn who she is she must explore herself, and she wants to cement who she thinks she is, thats why she is desperate to cling to anything, that can keep her in maskShallan.

Oh, yeah, this WoB. It made me register on this forum. Here is what I think about it. And in case this is 100% what he means and Shallan will really magically forget all her feelings... All the foreshadowing, brilliant dialogues, philosophy, phychology, chasm sequence and so on will be thrown out of the window, well, the book will follow and I won't have any regret. And you still keep focusing of the First Ideal and not replying to my arguments about choosing to be weak.

Yeah, more Cryptics! And Cryptic dialogues.

Oh, I'm sorry, I might have completely missed that! I'm not sure, how exactly I would want him to die. First of all, not so soon. I was looking forward for his other nasty things for our good team to struggle with. Secondly, not so... unexpected, maybe. I would want it to be more planned. More like Shallan's father, maybe. Hired assassin or Szeth, or even the same old Adolin, but having it planned, maybe finally getting him to their settled duel or whatever. Anyway, I'm fine with the fact it happened, it is definitely going to serve the plot somehow in the future. I mean, someone may get me wrong again, so I'll explain. In the context of "Adolin is a good guy and Sadeas' murder arc in over" I don't like how it was handled. In the context of "this is far from being over, Adolin is going to face the consequences, and he is not what he seems" I will look forward to see, how it plays out, and I am going to give a credit of trust to Sanderson, that his intention on this plotline is brilliant. Something like that.

I've already said, that this is not what I don't like. I like subverting reader's expectations, but it should be done in believable and meaningful way. What I don't like is putting something meaningless into the story to create expectations to subvert them later. Can you reply to my logic? To the quotes I have provided and explained my opinion on them? Even if we forget all the "First Ideal thing", do you think it is all right for our main protagonist to deliberately choose being weak over being strong? Or maybe you think, that "subverting readers' expectations" in regard of "strength before weakness" is that you have to be weak, and everything will be all right? I don't know, what exactly Sanderson meant by this First Ideal, what about Machiavellian stuff, but what I know, is that in real life being weak is worse, than being strong, and I can't possibly imagine a good literature, which would have stated otherwise. And, by the way, about subverting readers' expectations. As far as I can see on this forum, the expectations of the majority of readers are: Adolin and Shallan will be happily married. Adolin will revive Maya and be a Radiant. Kaladin and Shallan will never be together. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... ETA: I decided to provide an example of "meaningless thing to subvert readers' expectations". Imagine, that some character learns his sword name and summons her in 7 heartbeats. Just hypothetically. We wait for the next book, spending tonz of pages discussing, will he revive his sword or not, and on the next book he forgot his sword name and summons her in 10 heartbeats all book long. Or maybe he tries a couple of times to speak to her or summon her faster, but he doesn't manage to do it, so he says "storm it", forgets it and that's all, no other consequences of this plotline. Are readers' expectations subverted? For sure. Was it good? No, I don't think so.

Yeah. They had a boat and so on.

Yeah, she could be like that guy from Forrest Gump. I don't remember his name

I've already said in this thread, that I consider arranged marriage as a "destination before journey". Just because it's arranged. I've also come to a conclusion, that this particular marriage is a "weakness before strength" as well. And yes, I treat the First Ideal of Knights Radiant very seriously, and I think that it is one of the main moral messages of the series. So, I'll explain my point. After a 5 minutes of lazy digging through the text of OB I've found the following quotes: I'm almost sure I could have found more, if I spent more time. Then, just a little detail in addition to Hoid and other arguments, that Shallan, Veil, and Radiant are part of the whole: But why did she choose Adolin in the first place? To be maskShallan, and not Veil/Radiant. So she has deliberately chosen the weakest persona to stick to. And also this quote, we have already discussed a few posts ago: A place without fear is a place where you don't develop. You don't go out of your comfort zone. She doesn't want to face her fears, so she chooses weakness. When she sees Kaladin, she stands on two feet, he thinks she is stronger than him. And she also knows, that she can't be weak with Kaladin, I don't think that guy would be interested in a weak girl. He loves her for her strength. So there, weakness before strength.

Her brothers know she killed her father. I thought about Mr T and Team Odium, not Ghostbloods. They have Malata spying over everyone. And Voidbringers are also interested in Cryptics for some reason.

@The Feruchemist, yeah, agree with you totally. Regarding Sadeas - this is exactly my point. I just don't like people justifying this murder by the fact, that Sadeas was crem. I also think he had to die, just not this way. And about Radiant - 100% agree. I will only accept Radiant Adolin if he will be a Dark Radiant. This will be the only way for me to accept Maya revival thing.

Yeah, I wonder if he is alive after TC battle.

It is not "taking responsibility". It is "giving an advice". Everybody is good at giving advices, as long as there is nothing you have to do. If the ability of disturbing the air without contemplating the consequences of those disturbances makes someone a good character, then Adolin is truly the best.

Yeah, I totally agree with you here, this wording is awful. He thinks he can decide for both Kaladin and Shallan, that he wants to "have" her, and she wants him to "have" her. Adolin kind of commands both of them, not asking their opinion. I didn't want to focus on this side of their dialogue, just on his inability to hold to his decision. Neither do I. I never see him in OB thinking she is beautiful or whatever. He thinks about her outfits and that's all. And he marries her only because she insists on it, and he is too weak to say "no". And because he wants "to let someone to just take care of it".

I have some little stupid (or not) ideas of what can happen in the next book or two. I also want a couple of (forgotten) plotlines to continue, but those plotlines can also be somewhat small or uncertain, and I'm not sure any of those is worth a separate thread. So let's collect and discuss those neutral ideas here, and if any of them gathers a big interest start a new thread for it. Again, I want to stress. This is a topic for neutral, non-holywar ideas and plotlines. No Maya revival, no love triangles and other ships, no Sadeas, no Shallan's children, no main character deaths, no anything like that, please, deal? All right, here is my list: Rysn and Wandersail. I think there can be a connection with Puuli's granfather's prophecy. Will our Radiants crew sail towards the Origin for some purpose? Return of Yalb. Maybe he will join Wandersail's crew. Shallan had drawn him alive, and I would be really glad to see him again, I love him so much. Kaladin's flute. There was a WoB that this flute will eventually return to the story. How could it happen? What for? Hav. Where is he? Is he alive? Will he meet Kaladin? SimCity 1176: Urithiru. You know, I love city building strategies, if I was a game developer, I would definitely love to write an Urithiru simulator. By the way, how do they recharge spheres, if they are above the storm? I am also crazy about this "stormlight puffing from lips" stuff. Can we possibly see an in-book mechanically justified "reviving kiss"? Note, no predictions between whom! But we all know it will be Lopen and Rock. I think it would be a funny use of a centuries old trope. Shallan's brothers. Will they be a help or a threat? Can they tell Shallan's secrets to wrong ears? There also is a possibility for Shallan to be manipulated by Mr T, if he takes them hostages or something like that. (added later) Another idea is that Kaladin could train Shallan's army of illusions, so they will be even more overpowered, if they fougth with a good skill and in battle formations. And Kaladin would probably be fascinated by an opportunity to have an army of perfectly trained soldiers, that don't require protection, as they are practically immortal.

I don't see in this WoB that he knows Shallan. I see that he can visibly distinguish her shifts of personas. I didn't forget. I didn't want to add it for the length, to me it changes nothing. It is still a conversation of two selfish people, both of them only care about their own troubles. She says "I'm shattered" - he says "no worries, you can deal with it". He says "I killed Sadeas" - she says "no worries, you did good". She says "anyways, what about my personas?" - he says "I don't care, I want the real one, it's up to you". And then comes the sexual tension™. My wording could be not very good, my English vocabulary is quite poor. I mean that Adolin is not able to make a hard decision. He sees, how inadequate he is for Shallan and he is not sure he is what she needs, he sees that she has feelings to another guy, and he "decides" to step away. But he can't stand his ground and keep to his "decision", so it is not a decision, it is just a bla bla, air disturbance. When Kaladin made a decision to sacrifice himself for Shallan, she was trying desperately to make him change his mind, but she couldn't. He just wouldn't listen, because it is his storming decision. And that made her make a step towards him, open him a secret and summon for him a Shardblade she hates so much. Perhaps if Adolin had enough balls to stand on his decision to break up, it would make her love him more. But he just showed himself weak and manipulable. Again. Yeah, I got it. I hope, SA4 will arbitrate us. Or SA5

I like Adolin because he will be a perfect Odium's Champion

Not exactly: I think, we know enough. We know, that he didn't pay any attention to what those girls wanted, only what he himself wanted. I don't think a lot of screentime is needed to show that, though we still have a lot of screentime with these 3 (even 4, there was also Rilla) girls. Saying things without taking into account the consequences of saying these things in not a responsibility. You quoted only the part of my thought here, I will repeat. He said to Dalinar he was crazy. Dalinar decided to abdicate. Adolin said "let's ignore it and leave it all like it was". Then why say it in the first place? Is this responsibility? To say something, and when it goes poorly, take your words back? Well, when things come to Adolin discussion, "being a good person" is something that is constantly considered only in a convenient way. Being a good person is enough to change the world, to be Shallan's husband, to change Kaladin's perception of lighteyes, to stop the Desolation, and to cure cancer, but it's not enough to be a good king, when it comes to justification of Adolin's lack of desire to be a king. I'm getting to understand it is useless, but I will try again. You think he is crem. You are the one who wrote this post, and it is your opinion, that Sadeas is crem. Someone can still have another opinion, do you agree with that? Or other people are not allowed to have their own opinions, different from yours? In case they are allowed, then continue to Adolin. Adolin thinks Sadeas is crem. Someone else doesn't think so, e.g. Ialai. She is Sadeas's wife and she loves him. She is genuinely sorrowful about his death. But as Adolin thinks Sadeas is crem, he decides that he can kill Sadeas because of it. Well, even not on his own, it's his anger, that drives him into this action, but whatever. And now if we stretch this logic further to other characters and let them decide, whom they can kill, if they think they are crem, we can end up in a world with the only survivors there being Clever Mr T, the Heralds, Hoid, and Cultivation.

The book disagrees with you: Is this sexual tension? Only his looks? He is not even present in this scene. As a reminder, Adolin is near in this moment, she is talking to him, but starts comparing him to Kaladin and even misses what Adolin says next. She wasn't conning her way, her way was pretty all right. She was tricked into this by Tyn, but still agrees, that what she did was not good. And even somewhat apologizes: Emphasis mine. Please, give me a quote, when she thinks bad of Kaladin, because he is darkeyes. What do you mean by their most intimate scene? The whole chasms sequence? Well, this is actually the story about how they started hostile to each other and ended in love with each other. And racism was his issue, not hers. She said that his problem is that he is hateful and is huge pain in the neck, not that he is darkeyes and beneath her. Really, give me one quote when she acts bad to someone because he/she is darkeyes. And not under Tyn's influence, please. Again, it is not that she thinks darkeyes are peasants. It is that in Adolin's wording. What she is thinking about here is how Adolin brings it to the table, he brought eye color to the argument, not she. The same way as with Kaladin - he is the one who cares about eye color, not her. He knows maskShallan. He thinks it is "worrisome" that she "becomes other people". He would not be intimate with Veil. When she is not maskShallan he thinks that "something is wrong". He wants to be overprotective, but she hates being protected. She hates her sword, but he pushes her into learing to use it, not even trying to listen to her objections. And this dialogue? She is sharing with him her deepest trouble, she is weak at the moment and maybe finally asks him for a support, and what does he do? "You are the smart one" and then he switches the dialogue to himself. To what bothers him. He doesn't care about what's troubling her, he thinks she will deal with her problems on her own. And when she asks him, which one he wants, he says "the real you". Very smart reply. Brilliant, innovative, he really did put a lot of effort into his thought process to formulate something like this. There are only three dialogues with Kaladin (in private) in OB, but, oh, come on: Should I bring you the quotes of what Adolin said in similar situations and how Shallan reacted on it? Like after she returned from the chasms, after she got drunk as Veil and stabbed her hand? Adolin knows her, sure, and Kaladin doesn't. Adolin thinks she is made of crystal and needs protection and Kaladin thinks this woman is stronger than he'd ever been. In other dialogues Kaladin shows, that he can easily support her wordplay, and her scholarship. Yeah, this one "fateful" dialog which starts nicely and only goes bad in the end, that everyone keeps bringing up. They are both in their worst states ever and they start talking about their mental health. Sure, one bad dialogue can ruin all the chemistry and kinship and anything else. Could you support this with quotes? Like how he will passionately sweep her off her feet? Especially after she says, that Adolin makes her want to rip his shirt off? How Adolin is constant, when she thinks that Kaladin is the one you can't change? And currently it's Adolin who always changes under the influence of the others. A moment ago he wanted to break with Shallan, but she convinced him not to. Was she able to convince Kaladin not to sacrifice himself to save her from the chasmfiend? Both actions were, supposedly, something both men didn't want to do. But Adolin is convinced to change his opinion in a blink of an eye, and Kaladin is like winds and rocks.

Thank you again, unfortunately, my upvotes have ended for today

Would it be an offtop to discuss here what I want from the next book? I thought it is not a very big topic to start a new one... I love Rysn, and I want more of her in SA4. I also thought about her brand new Wandersail and had an idea. What if Puuli's grandfather was talking about it? Ofc I think Rysn will be Radiant, she fits perfectly to the crew, so what if our Radiant team has to get on board of her Wandersail and sail to the Origin? It will also be a potential for the return of my precious Yalb, as Shallan had drawn him alive.

How exactly? What of his actions in particular led to the change in Kaladin's treatment of lighteyes? Protection of the prostitute? If we removed this action from the plot Kaladin would not change his opinion on lighteyes? I will repeat again, that he behave awfully with Kaladin in the beginning of WoR, swinging, again, an unprotected shardblade at him at the training grounds and kicking him while wearing a shardplate. Is it how a good person would behave? We can even forget other cases, like his phrases at the meetings ("Does bridgeboy really have to be here?" or something like that), him provoking Kaladin to mount Dreamstorm, which was already after their fight with Szeth. Kaladin had to save him 3 times before Adolin had turned to him. Yes, after that he believed him about Amaram and so on, but it is Kaladin's merit that Adolin believed him, not Adolin's kindness to Kaladin. And how exactly did he help Shallan? Shallan is like in her worst state in the end of OB. All right, she stopped producing new alts, but that's something she did on her own, she did it during TC battle, in that moment, when new alts wanted to come out, but she had stopped them and fixed on only three. Actually, that's the moment I think Sanderson meant when he said in WoB that Wit would say that Shallan made a step forward but still has ways to go. I mean, that's nice, that you think he helps people by being a good person, but could you please explain your point, how exactly his goodness helps other people? If I could help anyone just by being good, it would be nice, but I think, that to help someone you must actually do something, not just be around and be good.

I agree, that Sadeas should have died one way or another. What I don't like about his death is how it was handled and no consequences for the killer. That's all.

Yeah, thank you. Got it now I don't know how to add the quote to the previous post, hope moderators can do it for me. Your last paragraph is exactly what I think about Shallan and Adolin. They are the ones who have sexual tension that will fade and they will have problems. I don't understand, why Shadolin supporters keep saying that Shalladin is about sexual tension. Where? She loves Adolin for his hair, stupid arms, and wants to rip his shirt off. In Kaladin she is focused on his eyes, his contained passion and so on. On his personality, in other words. Where is it sexual tension? About another paragraph - show me Shallan's classism, please. She was always quite good to darkeyes, starting with Yalb. And that argument about Kaladin admiring her coping mechanisms - actually, this is the what is on the surface. This is what Shallan says to justify her choice of Adolin. She says it first of all to herself. I wouldn't follow her in those considerations. I would like to take other things into account. Maybe it will be another research of mine, if the previous one goes well