Sedside

Yeah, this kind of "trope break" is actually what makes me mad It's like a job interview. We've got two candidates, one is perfect for the job and another one is awful. Let's take the second one, because it's a trope break. That's what Shalladin "shippers" dislike, actually. Breaking a trope for the sake of breaking a trope and doing it very awkwardly and "just because I wrote so". Unbelievable and clumpsy. I took "shippers" in brackets because I don't actually think that Shalladin is a ship. Maybe I don't understand properly what "ship" means, but I think it is something like Jasnah x Lopen or Lift x Beard, you know. Something of pure "would be nice". Shalladin is not a ship, as well as Shadolin, in my opinion. It is a romantic arc that objectively exists in the book.

But he did step on the scene as a good duelist. We don't see him training in the text. We already meet him as someone who loves dueling and does it well. We meet Kaladin same way - a good spearman, naturally talented but also trained hard for it. But it's not why we love Kaladin, is it? We love Kaladin because he did something he didn't want to but had to, because it was the right thing to do numerous times. We know that in the past Adolin trained hard for dueling, but it is not the thing to love him for, because we don't see his struggles for it. If we had a flashback in which Adolin was scared to Damnation of dueling, but realized his need to learn to do it and then he had been fighting his fear and pushing himself to trainings, then yes, this would definitely do for me. But there is no such a flashback. He is presented as someone who loves dueling and does it well. It is not extraordinary, I love things I do well too. What I want to find out is how to make myself do well things I don't love. This is the kind of thing I dislike so much in the romantic arc discussions here. It's not an attack at you, though, just my emotions, I'm sorry. I don't get it. This is a story about strong people, superheroes who deal with their problems themselves. Why should our main female need someone to lean on? Why is a marriage considered this way - that the woman needs a man to lean on, to support her, to do what else, provide her with money, so she doesn't need to work? Love and romance are not about leaning on someone. It is about letting someone to lean on you. It is about giving something to other person because you love him/her, not taking something from him/her, this is vampirism. And why when we talk about Kaladin people say that he shouldn't be with Shallan because he wants to lean on her (I somewhat agree with this, tho), but Shallan must be with Adolin, because she wants to lean on him? I find it unfair point. For women. Like they (we) are not fully-featured without a relationship? First of all, I don't hate Adolin. Second, I don't want him removed from the narrative, as well as Sadeas, storms, I love Sadeas, I've applauded to his trick with the Tower on my first read-through, he had turned this fraud around brilliantly. It doesn't mean I want Dalinar/Adolin and co to die. It means I love a good story and a good story needs good villains. How? Tell me, whom or what has he changed by being a good guy? The idea to check the visions was Renarin's. Kaladin learned to trust lighteyes under the impression of Dalinar giving up Oathbringer and then on his own. Adolin was just standing near all the time, he didn't do anything proactively. He went to prison for Kaladin only after Kaladin proved himself "worthy" three times and also after Adolin was very rude with him many times, including swinging an unprotected shardblade at him on the training grounds. This action was just his attempt to compensate Kaladin's investments into their relationship and Adolin's own bad treatment of him. Two options: Moash #2 or meeting another woman, much simplier than Shallan, and divorcing. I have my own little ship (well, boat) here called Taralin It would be fun, I think. Yeah, we have Janala, Danlan and Malasha. Quite enough, I think, and the same pattern every time. The difference is only that Shallan is the one who wants this courtship to work out. In WoR she wanted to get close to Navani and work on Urithiru problem. In OB part 1 I'm not exactly sure, maybe "momentum" and the need to have someone to distract her from her mother issue, the investigation was a nice opportunity. Then Navani and Jasnah were pushing her, and finally her identity issues and Adolin as an anchor for her personas. She was in the driving seat all along. Even in the final marriage decision she was the one who made it, not Adolin. It is not a responsibility to tell someone he is wrong and has to do other things. Even less it is a responsibility, when he says to his father, that he is crazy, and when his father says "ok, son, you are right, I abdicate in your favor", he replies "oh no, father, forget about your craziness, just ignore it". Well, if Adolin is is good and nice guy, kind to everyone and so on, why do people think he would be a bad king? I actually thought on my first read-through that this is an awesome opportunity for him to finally grow, and I thought like "omg, this guy could really be a nice king". All he needed was to gather his nuts into his fist (sorry, I don't know the proper English idiom for being strong, this is just a word-by-word translation of my native language version) and do what he must. Yes it is risky and scary. So is fighting the chasmfiend alone, mounting Dreamstorm, confronting Gaz and so on. So is talking to a bunch of deserters and bandits, infiltrating Ghostbloods, stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster and so on. Adolin killed Torol because he had gotten and opportunity for it. He was provoked and enraged. He wasn't rational. It wasn't like "all right, Torol is a threat, I need to kill him, it is needed to be done so I will do it". It was a pure accident, he just met him, he wasn't even searching for him. And there was noone near to stop him, like in previous books. Adolin hated Sadeas from his very first chapter in WoK. He wanted him dead and was doing shardblade-summoning gestures in his presence. Ialai woudn't agree with you. Someone isn't crem because you think he is crem. You don't gain the licence to condemn someone to death, if you think he is crem. We can justify Sadeas's actions the same way, you know. Sadeas thought Dalinar was crem so he condemned him to death. Amaram thought Kaladin's men were crem, because they were darkeyes and who cares about darkeyes, when the world needs trained shardbearers? Clever Mr T thinks everyone is crem but him, can we let him kill everyone? Storms, I understand you now Yeah, very much this, have an upvote! Agree with you so much either! I think that neither Jasnah, nor Kaladin would have done that. They would only have done that if there was an imminent life danger. Jasnah's encounter with Amaram shows that quite well. Anyway, if Kaladin really did that, I would be very much disappointed with him and with this book as well. I dislike this moment so much not because Adolin did it, but because this was just a disgraceful way to kill out a main villain. I expected him to die more... I dunno, well-played or whatsoever. If Jasnah wanted Sadeas dead she would order an assassin. Kaladin... well, he would have tried to find him on a battlefield, like Amaram, I guess. But the way Sanderson did it means that it had to be done this way. There will be consequences. Again, he wanted Sadeas dead from his very first chapter (WoK 12). Long before the Tower. And it is not the fact that he killed Sadead that I personally don't like. I don't like how he did it. It was a pure accident, affection, not a well-thought and considered decision, it was against his father's will, he was hiding it and lying to Shallan and so on. Also the way it was committed - kinda cruel and somewhat psychopatic. There are some interesting thoughts Dalinar brings to the table when considering this murder, like it is a good way to kill an armored soldier, but Sadeas is unarmored and unarmed, it was also in a dark corridor, something which Kaladin thinks, when protecting Elhokar. And when it finally got out everyone is OK with it. That's what I don't like, not the fact that Sadeas is dead.

Thank you for this thread I'm actually in a process of writing a big analysis of Adolin's character, it will take a looong time to go yet, but I will participate in this thread, if there will be a good quality discussion, supported by quotes and analysis. First of all, I don't think Adolin is a bad character. He is a good character, well written, and has his own purpose in the story. I think, he is very consistent and stable character, and this is done deliberately to him, so everything I think about his traits is an author's intent and will serve later in the plot, but hadn't yet come out. What I don't like about Adolin is perhaps not truly about Adolin, it's about how the majority of people perceive him. Maybe it's not a completely valid point from me, people can have their opinions, which differ from mine. What I enjoy the most in any stories - books, movies, TV shows - is not the magic or the worldbuilding (though it's very nice too!), but something I can use in my life, something I can learn and grow as a person on it. And it is not about "oh, this one is a nice guy, he is a prince, he is handsome, let's make him an Edgedancer, because it will be great and he will look nice as an Edgedancer". If this is the case - I will stop reading SA. But the problem is that the 3 books so far proved to me, that most likely this is not the case. Sanderson writes psychology very well, he also definitely has moral in these books. The theme of being responsible, doing something you are scared of, being strong, contain your passion, do what you have to, not what you want to - it's here all the time. What I like so much about these books, is that superheroes don't appear randomly, because of their luck, like being born in the right family, or mutation, or being chosen just because author so wanted. They become superheroes because they have accomplished something. Yes, they are broken, but the only fact of being broken is not enough. You have to be broken, but fighting against it, that's what I see in SA. They are proactive, they do what they can in their circumstances. And that's what I as a reader can learn from them, I can use those characters as a pattern to follow. What I also like in the books, because it is something I can use, is relationships. Dialogues. How characters behave when they speak to other characters. Maybe it seems unimportant, unless it pushes the plot further, but to me it doesn't. And what I also see in these books is that the author is great at writing dialogues. Sometimes a single, short and seemingly very simple reply seems so storming amazing to me that I just freeze there for a couple of minutes enjoying it. One such moment was when Kaladin spoke to a soldier, who wanted to take B4's water. The soldier said that he doesn't want to wait for his own water crews. Kaladin replied "how unfortunate". Two words, but, storms, this is a perfect answer. Not verbally attacking the soldier, not advising him what to do, sleek wording, somewhat trolling, but still holding his ground. And such things are everywhere throughout the books, and I love them. This is another thing that shows me that those books are very deep. So what I see in Adolin is that he is deliberately written is such way that he is not so great as almost everyone here thinks he is. Maybe it's because people don't like to analyse or whatever. It's written that Dalinar thinks noone can deny Adolin - then it is so. It is written that Shallan thinks she loves him and he helps her to hold her personas together - then it is so. Kaladin said to Syl that he didn't love her - then it is so. It is written that Shallan married Adolin - well, then it is set in stone and they will be happy ever after. I actually don't want to bring a lot of analysis here yet, until I finish my work with a big post, just because it will all be there. I will just say that to me Adolin is a pretty ordinary person, who is placed into a very unordinary situation. Any change of life is a stress, this is how biology works. Even a good change. What helps people deal with this stress of change is a power of their personality. They have to use their strength, adapt and grow even stronger. But Adolin does not adapt, he does not change, and he does not grow, he just swims with the tide. He doesn't take any responsibility, he wants to do nothing, just enjoy life and entertain himself. Yes, he participates in some grand events, but does he initiate anything? Everything just drops onto him without his noticeable efforts. He had struggles with women? Shallan-The-One-And-Only is here to solve his problems. He was about to die at the Tower? Kaladin is here to save his life. He was about to lose all House Kholin shards, get crippled or possibly killed? Kaladin for the rescue again. He had almost dropped into the chasm? Skar&Drehy are already working on your case, stay tuned. He committed a murder of a highprince? Noone cares, you did well, dude. He got a gut wound? Dalinar&Renarin are here, no worries. And now what? He is not a Radiant in the Era of Gods? Maya will do this for you, Adolin, you don't have to do anything, just be kind to your sword and heal her with the beauty of your hair. Maybe choose her a nice outfit in Celebrant. I just think that Adolin is here to show us, that a person who doesn't want to strain, who wants only idle life without any responsibilities and struggles, will eventually be crushed by all those apocalyptic events. That the person, who wants to take no decisions and "someone just to take care of it all", is an odd one here. He must pay for this with either finally evolving somehow or with being broken and possibly killed. Maybe I am wrong, and Adolin will revive Maya, become Radiant and never have any payback, Shallan will forget all her feelings for Kaladin as soon as she finally rips Adolin's shift off and so on. It will somewhat be good too, as I will be free and won't have to wait for another couple of years after SA4 release, because I will drop those books.

This is the only scenario I will accept this "I am PROTECTION!" thing

Harsh

This argument never makes any sense to me too. It doesn't matter, was his life perfect or not. He had problems in his life, not so dramatic as Adolin supporters like to state when trying to prove his "brokenness" be enough to bond Maya, but yes, he had problems. So what? What did he do? What did he accomplish? What hard decisions did he make? What struggles did he have? How is he trying to be a better person? Why would you want to take a pattern by him? Or tell your children to do it? @Mage of Lirigon, I would be glad to continue the triangle discussion, I love it, but I don't want to offtop more here.

And Kaladin doesn't? Elhokar was willing to make the effort to be a good king, does it make him a good king? Yeah, perhaps she was, but Adolin didn't help her hold Radiant from appearing, he made this process go faster. So how does Adolin help Shallan keep herself whole? And Shallan is in a good headspace for a relationship? I also don't think that it would make each other problems worse, he definitely thinks she pushes his darkness away. Though I agree, that they shouldn't be together yet, because noone has to rely on relationships for solving their problems. I just don't understand, why people say, that Kaladin shouldn't be with Shallan, because he has to solve his mental problems first, but the same people state that it is good for Shallan to marry Adolin, because he is helping her solve her mental problems. Double standarts. A small matter of her beloved big brother indeed remains, but we don't have any clue of what Shallan thinks about it, because it is buried deeply in the back of her mind. But I agree, it must be addressed, along with the whole matter of her feelings to Kaladin. OB is a book where all the possible interaction between Shallan and Kaladin is forced to minimum, we don't see Kaladin's PoVs in 2nd part, no dialogues, no Thaylen flight, and when we finally see one big enough private conversation between them, they are both in their worse mental states like ever, it can't be a coincidence. Well, to Adolin's credit here, he did keep him involved into conversation on purpose, I just don't think it is something incredible.

Yeaaaah!

I definitely would like to see facepalmspren.

It's my opinion, what do you say "no" to? He only started to acknowledge his skills after their encounter with Szeth. And he was doing it very reluctantly. Prior to that he denied him almost at their every meeting, swung an unprotected shardblade at him, and kicked him wearing shardplate. After meeting with Szeth he still was not very fond of Kaladin and provoked him to mount Dreamstorm. The actual warming-up only happened somewhat after Shallan arrived, Adolin and Kaladin had a conversation at training grounds, then menagerie ride, when he said that Shallan can trust him, because he saved his life 2 times. All of this dynamics was due to Kaladin's efforts, not to Adolin's. Kaladin proved himself "worthy" to Adolin, and so Adolin started treating him neutral, and after a duel, which was also a very very huge investment from Kaladin, he started treating him as a friend. Spending time in prison was nice, but I don't think it can be compared to what Kaladin did for Adolin, so it can not balance the investments. Kaladin risked his life, and Adolin just willingly limited his freedom, fully aware that he can go out anytime with no harm, he won't be executed, he won't be demoted, no consequences. And he was still having bath, chatting via spanreed with Shallan and stuff. That's nice, he believed Kaladin, really nice, but again, I don't think it is Adolin's merit. Kaladin did much more to earn his appreciation, than Adolin did for Kaladin. Maybe. I'm not very interested in Renarin/Adolin relationship, I like Renarin on his own. I just said that I was impressed by how wise and supportive he is to Adolin, it was something I didn't notice on my first read-through. I actually feel like SLNC is those discussions about Adolin. He already has everything with absolutely no effort - he's got appearance, wealth, fame, shards, beautiful hair, now also a wife, he has the majority of readers' adoration and now let's give him radiance, just because he is so adorable, who could deny him? (c) Dalinar

I really wonder, why people think Adolin reduces her issues? Because she said "he knows me" and he said "I want real you"? And why people say Kaladin is terrible for her? Because, again, she said, that he encourages her to hide herself away? Doesn't matter, that there are plenty of quotes, that conversations with Kaladin make her excited, he can wordplay, he has empathy, and so on, whereas for Adolin she created a mask and can't even mock him, though this is something she loves. I already said about Shallan's fractured soul above, but I'll also note that Radiant was created under Adolin's direct influence. She is also much less herself and less whole with him, because she must behave as a perfect Vorin bride/wife, and when he sees her alter egos he says something is wrong. His help with Kaladin's lighteyes issues? Mmmm, where? When he condescended to him after Kaladin saved his life 2 times and saved him from being crippled, humiliated and losing all House Kholin shards joining a fight with 6 shardbearers? Kaladin revised his issues under the influence of Dalinar and by himself with his 3rd Ideal. Adolin has nothing to do with it. Depression - well, Adolin acts nice in Shadesmar, yes. But I don't find it somewhat extraordinary. He is useless otherwise (his words), so he provides the moral support. And Kaladin, again, struggles with his depression mostly by himself. Renarin? I don't know, he also did a lot by himself, he joined B4 and did a good job of fitting in. Also I mostly see Renarin providing good advices and support for Adolin now, when I'm focused on Adolin's PoVs for my analysis of his character, and I'm surprised by that. Besides, Renarin is his brother, it's quite normal to support your brother, I think. Regarding Sadeas - this is one of my least favorite episodes in SA. Sadeas was a great villain, and I really feel sorry for him dying in such a disgraceful way. Speaking with someone, who wants you dead desperately since the very beginning and can barely hold himself, in a dark corridor without guards and provoking him? And Adolin? It didn't look like he planned it or something. Pure affection - came, saw, got enraged, murdered.

1. Shallan's (all right, Veil's) feelings for Kaladin magically vanish after the first wedding night. If there will be no single sign of them in the whole book - I'm done with SA. 2. Adolin and Shallan having happy sunshine and rainbows marriage because she made her choice and deal with it. 3. No consequences of Sadeas's murder. Radiant Adolin (normal Radiant, I can see the possibility of his Radiance to work out right for me, but no way he can be like second Lift, only Adolin). 4. No love for Kaladin. And not Tarah, please. She is lovely, just not his level. 5. I WANT MORE RYSN POVS PLEASE!

I'm sorry, don't know how to multiquote from phone, so I will reply by paragraphs. Yes, good comparison with religion. Religions are different in details, but they have a lot of general things in common. That's exactly how I understand the First Ideal. Yes, totally agree with this one too. The First Ideal states the power of personality. I didn't say I don't like subverting reader expectations. I said I don't like putting something to a book just to create readers' expectations just to subvert them later. I actually had a little bit more thinking about all this First Ideal things and I kind of found the correct wording for it. I don't mean you have to be a good guy, no. Is Dalinar a good guy? He is a storming mass murderer. But he follows the First Ideal quite well. What about Amaram? He hadn't killed as many people, as Dalinar, but he doesn't fit the First Ideal. The difference between our "classic" villains (T, Amaram and my poor lovely Sadeas) and "Radiant" villains is in responsibility/compassion thing. Amaram has compassion, but gives up responsibility. T changes states depending on his intelligence. Sadeas has responsibility, but has no compassion. I can't really say anything about Malata, not enough text about her. But Nale definitely knows his responsibility for his actions, he admits his mistakes, he is willing to help Singers, his actions were to prevent Desolation, and he didn't take excessive sacrifices for that. He only killed Surgebinders and Knights Radiant, if I'm not mistaken. So I think that the First Ideal is dedicated to taking responsibility for your actions, and not being psychopath at the same time. That's not all it is about, "journey before destination" is a different thing, but I have already offtopped too much here.

Yes, I agree with that, certain mindset. I just don't see any point if anyone can be a Radiant, just say the Words and gain superpowers. Well, I disagree with this. Words are called Ideal. Ideal is something you are supposed to wish to follow. If you say it just formally because you need to say it, then it's not an Ideal. Writing something meaningless just to give readers expectations to subvert them later? I can't agree with that. Nale and Malata are not monsters. Only because someone has different opinion and different goals than you doesn't make him a monster. Yes, Nale was killing people, but he thought he was doing the right thing. He didn't kill them because of rage, for pleasure or whatever else. He thought that he must do it, and he was doing it accordingly to his Ideals. He was trying to prevent Desolations, and later he even had been able to understand his mistake, regret it and let Szeth choose his own path. We can't really say much about Malata, because we know very little about her, but she definitely has her own goals. She still can be a glorious Knight Radiant, only on the opposite side, just like Kaladin was on the opposite side for Parshendi at the Tower. Noone called him a monster for that, though he killed a lot there. Anyway, I believe, that if the Ideal is introduced to the book, then it should mean something. For me it means some traits of personality, to prevent random people from getting superpowers and using them for their own selfish goals, or doing harm to a lot of people, or whatever else it should prevent. Maybe it was meant to prevent what happened to Ashyn.

I agree with you. I didn't like Venli much, though I kind of forced myself to pay more attention to her on my reread, and now I like her a little bit more. I think there still will be a lot of interesting plot lines in book 4.

Yes, I am referring to this Ideal. I don't think it's useless, though I also agree with you, that it can be tweaked to each Radiant Order. I think this Ideal is about Radiant's personality, not about their actions. Strength of will, responsibility, not being selfish and so on. If this Ideal is useless and means nothing - why speak it in the first place? Why introduce it to the book?

Yeah, I think I will do it, but it is going to take a long, because I am going to support it with plenty of quotes, so I have to dig through all Adolin PoVs and a fair amount of other characters' PoVs.

My another 2 cents to this thread. Shallan names the main reason for Adolin as "he knows her". But she also says somewhere in OB, that she can't even mock Adolin, because she feels bad about it. So she has to restrain herself from mocking him. It's quite the same as what she was doing and talking about in her very first chapter, when Captain Tozbek asked her not to hold her tongue, and she said that she was raised this way that lady has to hold her tongue. So with Adolin she feels like she has to do it again, and it's not who she is. She doesn't like to hold her tongue. I hope she will get fed up with this eventually. As well, she and Adolin never had any real problems, struggle or fight or whatever. It was all along rainbows and sunshine, the only problem was the "no mating" stuff. Multiple personas? Ah, that's all right, no worries. Killed Sadeas in the dark corridor stabbing him through the eye? Good job, sweetheart, I don't care. Sweet syrup, no principles, let's mate asap. And I would also like to add that the whole idea of an arranged marriage is a pure illustration of "destination before journey" thing. And no, I don't care about other books and author's love for arranged marriages, I read this book, I take the philosophy it declares and try to analyze it and apply it to the text. I also believe that Adolin has been violating all of the three main KR Ideals and I'm in the process of writing a big analysis about it, dunno though, if I will post it on this forum, so many people adore Adolin so much, I've got no idea why, maybe because Sanderson is a genious and has written him so well. I like him as a character, but I don't know why people love him as a person. I also love Sadeas as a character, to me he was a very high quality villain, but it doesn't mean I like him as a person, of course. Actually, the fact that so many people love Adolin, want him to revive Maya and become KR, wish luck to Shadolin, and don't like Shalladin and think it's over, quite inspires me. It raises the probability of the opposite events to happen, because they will still be unexpected for the majority of readers.

It was after he summoned it when he first time started fighing the thunderclast. He was talking to her about it and assumed that she was designed for fighting them. Before that and 7 heartbeats were several other PoVs, it was not in the same episode.

Oh, we have a big difference in understanding Honor, I guess. I thought, it was about doing what's right and honorable. Doing exactly what you said for me looks much more like Skybreakers, following the letter of the law. Slaughtering the innocent for someone who is meant to protect and lead? I really hope this is not the case.

As I said, I don't think Odium is so easy to beat. I also don't think Sanderson had written it in vain, and forgot to mention Dalinar by name. Yes. This and a bunch of another reasons make him a perfect candidate.

I don't agree with you here. Killing innocent people without straight life threat from them is somewhat Amaramy. Or Taravangiany. It's not their fault they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. If your scouting mission is so bad at picking observation place and observing surroundings that they could get in such situation, two young lovers definitely shouldn't pay such a cruel price for your mistakes. This is in my opinion straight death before life thing. The other thing I have to note also is that you are focusing on the Kholinar Palace battle, though the point, where Kaladin couldn't say the words was sitting above wounded Adolin and remembering his deceased friends. It is exactly the latter example of yours. All right, my final wording for the 4th Ideal is the following, just for the history: "I will let (some) people die as long as it's right, even if I love them".

Yeah, and a nice sparring partner, but there will be some tension at first, I think.

I agree, that Jasnah is not very stable inside, but she is good in dealing with it in public. And yes, she is pragmatic, when it comes to killing people. She was ready to kill Renarin to protect her family from him and to stop him, if he is working with the enemy. That's exactly what Parshendi did to her father, and Szeth was only a weapon. Who will have problems with Szeth is Kaladin, I guess.

Yeah, this makes sense. Also, if we remeber Syl and Kaladin's dialogue about Elhokar and Parshendi, Syl said that Ideals are about what's right. Third Ideal was about protecting those he hates as long as it's right, the Fourth then is probably "I will let those I love die, as long as it's right". And the Fifth should be about defining what's right then. Perhaps. Like Skybreakers' is about defining the law?