Ixthos

The problem with what you are trying to do - and it is a good idea, don't get me wrong - is that you are presenting this in a highly esoteric manner along with a confusing one. Putting aside my issues with your use of Biblical names, there are two parts to the problem. The first is that you are making the entire story and subtle details depend entirely on mathematical injokes and jargon without giving context to them, or explaining them for those who don't get them. For example, I get the reference to Pi walking in circles, being a certain distance from 3, and the significance of mentioning Cantor, but what is the significance of sqrt(2), 2, and 4 being involved, other than them being a sequence where each is followed by its square, and why is sqrt(2) running faster? Why are the primes being broken into fractions, and why is that a bad thing? Why are they surprised that adding Aleph null doesn't change the cardinality, as Aleph null has the same cardinality as the sum of an infinite series (Aleph null) of Aleph null. Things like that. I am fairly more aware of these concepts than most of the people that I know, and I know a few others who are more familiar with this topic than I am, but this feels a lot like a large in-joke which doesn't let anyone in on it unless they are already aware of the concepts. Unlike, for example, the Vsauce video on counting past infinity, which was educational and amusing, or as you cited Flatland, which I haven't read but from what I understand was also used to explain the details as well, rather than just assuming those who read it understood the ideas. Maybe I am being a little too hasty, but it seems like you need to establish these ideas more clearly as part of the narrative, rather than as a "see what I did there?" type approach. The second issue is the CYOA style "jump to" points. I like choose your own adventure books, but how is someone supposed to navigate to that page if it isn't in a clearly layed out order? And the integers are a useful system that is highly mathematical - indeed they are the indexes for Aleph numbers, so why not use them instead? Actually ... why not use the integers, and have a few bonus or hidden pages in between, like a PI and e page, and a few bonuses like an omega, omega+1, omega*2, omega^omega, at the end - pages that only those who, with a better grasp of the ideas, can then take the appropriate choices to navigate to? So mainly integers, maybe a few negatives, everyone should start at page zero, but a few hidden bonus pages in a logical and well understood layout. Sorry if this is a little too harsh. This looks like a good idea but those issues bug me.

I like both options, though if I were to choose I would go with the first option, with the books having the sequence they were written in as a number on the inside ring next to them. Someone who is reading Stormlight probably is more interested in continuing to the next Stormlight book, but someone interested in the order they were written would just need to see the numbers and follow them to the next one, which for some series would be right by them :-) I would also make the sequence match the internal chronology, and use the colour code to indicate main series as well, so Mistborn era 2 would be between Stormlight 5 and 6, etc. I like what you have done! (Also, complete side note, but the Discworld chart seems to have a mistake: Thief of Time should connect to Nightwatch, shouldn't it? That was the background to Vimes travelling back in time.)

Reviving my old topic after giving this some more thought. As I've said I don't play pen and paper RPGs, though I have played a few fantasy games. As I understand it, there are in general a few different types of combat roles: Tank - take damage for others DPS - damage the enemy Healer - keep your allies from dying or being incapacitated Buffer - boost the abilities of your allies Debuffer - reduce the abilities of your enemies Pet master - control units to fight Utility - stealth, lockpicking, teleportation, persuasion, etc. So, based on these, I wonder if we can assign some more refined roles to the different systems? :-) Note that, for example, the Orders of Knights Radiant all are Tanks and DPS due to their plate and blades, and so all tank better than say a Pewter arm, but some are even more tanky, such as Windrunners, so some might be a tank but not be as skilled a tank as others. Sel: AonDor: DPS, Healer, Utility (various) Dakhor: Tank, DPS, Utility ChayShan: DPS Forging: Utility Bloodsealing: Pet master, Utility Roshar: All Radiants: Tanks (shardplate), DPS (shardblade) Windrunners: Tanks (drawing in enemy fire) Skybreakers: DPS Dustbringers: DPS Edgedancers: Tank (avoidance and mitigation), Healer Truthwatchers: Tank (mitigation), Buff (maybe?), Healer, Utility (information gathering) Lightweavers: Buff (lightweaving), Debuff (lightweaving), Utility (stealth, resource production) Elsecallers: DPS (transformation), Buff, Utility (resource production, teleportation) Willshapers: Utility (teleportation) Stonewards: Tank, DPS Bondsmiths: Buff, Debuff (maybe?) Fabrials: Utility Scadrial: Allomancy: Tank, DPS, Buff, Debuff, Utility Iron / Steel: Tank (draw/redirect enemy fire), DPS, Debuff (affect enemy aim), Utility (transport) Tin: Utility Pewter: Tank, DPS Zinc / Brass: Buff, Debuff Copper: Utility (stealth and infiltration) Bronze: Utility (information gathering) Cadmium / Bendalloy: Utility (talking is a free action) Gold: Utility Electrum: Tank Chromium: Debuff Nicrosil: Buff, Debuff Aluminium / Duralumin: Utility Feruchemy: Tank, DPS, Utility Iron: Utility (travel, interfere with being moved) Steel: Tank (avoidance), Utility (travel) Tin: Utility Pewter: Tank, DPS Zinc / Brass / Copper / Bronze: Utility (planning, surviving temperatures, staying focused) Cadmium / Bendalloy: Utility (storing resources) Gold: Tank (mitigation) Electrum / Chromium / Nicrosil / Aluminium / Duralumin: Utility Nalthis: Awakening: Pet master, Utility (general tools) First of the Sun: Aviar: Pet master, Utility (stealth) Can anyone else think of any others or comments on these? :-)

... This intrigues me ... :-P Currently it looks like Elsecallers are are the Order most people feel they would fit best. Makes sense seeing as how so many of us are nerds :-P In fact the three more obviously scholarly orders seem to be the majority, followed by Skybreakers. I guess a lot of people are going to be happy when Stormlight 5 comes out and we see Szeth in a more prominent role :-) Does anyone else think that, instead of Reverse lashings, Skybreakers can make objects explode though contact? So, rather than making an object draw things towards itself, they can make it split and each piece move in a different direction? Also, for all you Elsecallers, if Transportation can also affect distance and momentum, who else thinks they are very good at trickshots? :-)

Makes sense :-) those are also one of my favourite orders. It would be interesting to know the differences between how they use Transportation and how Willshapers do so. I think Willshapers probably can use Cohesion to weaken reality and so to make teleportation nodes for short range transport, but Elsecallers probably can use Transportation to gain a better range on their use of Transformation, and their ability to seemingly transmit Transformation along what they have touched, as well as influence the momentum of what they have touched, seem pretty cool :-) *High five* How ... Mysterio-us of you ;-)

I know this is a difficult choice to make, as I think Surgebinging and the Orders are the single best magic system, or systems, I've ever read, and God willing I will make a post on that (including why this is so frustrating). This is also difficult as the full mechanics of each Order haven't been revealed yet, and so a of what is known about some orders is based on supposition and theory, and even the Orders we do know about are only partially understood. However, if you had to choose a favourite Order for whatever reason, and an Order you think you would join - that is, would match - and which would they be? I know this is like selecting from a litter of puppies - how can you choose one over the others? Still, if you had to choose, which Order would you choose, and why? For the ideals they represent? Their powers? The combination of their powers? The look of their spren? Their colour, essence, symbol? From the available Orders, and what is known about them, and what is suspected, which is your favourite, and - whether the same or different - which Order do you think you would join? My two favourites are the Bondsmiths and the Truthwatchers (though close "seconds" are Windrunners, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers, followed by Stonewards, Willshapers, and Edgedancers, and the rear are Skybreakers and Dustbringers ... unless Dustbringers can't throw lightning as well as fire). Bondsmiths because they are guides to the others without dominating them, able to boost the powers of the others, helping to make the other knights more, and keeping the diversity of knights in unity. They are pious and guiding, and while I like Shardblades and Plate, the idea of the small, select group who do without them, powerful but humble, is deeply appealing to me. Both they and Truthwaters are my favourites for personal reasons as well as what is stated here, but these are some of my reasons. The order I think I would join is the Truthwatchers. I have a personal relationship with both light and growth, and while it isn't immediately clear if they have the abilities I'm going to outline, I think it is likely, though these are just side reasons for why I like them, and even if they don't have these powers I would still like them as my tied for favourite Order. Illumination. In addition to maybe having access to the same illusion abilities of Lightweavers, I think they also have the ability to see distant things and hidden things, to communicate with those far away as well as piercing mysteries. I also think they have spiritual lasers which might be able to remove harmful investiture from others. And regular lasers. I don't think they would use them as offensively as Dustbringer's thrown fire (and maybe lightning), but I'm convinced they can produce lasers as well as produce and hear radio waves, EM in general, and pressure waves likewise, so sonic abilities; Progression: the ability to heal others, and possible using illumination to produce healing for a large area. The ability to possibly help things to grow, and maybe to reshape life slightly as well, so as to better help things survive. Also the possibility this accesses the same principles as certain other Cosmere systems involving time, and so maybe also allows them to affect age. Also, their own ability to repair themselves seems to be stronger than average; Ideals: Their ideal is to gain knowledge and use that to help others. There is very little more valuable than that, and it is a benefit to all involved, and so are both scholarly and practical, using knowledge as a way to help others and so improve how others are and how they live. They are described as esoteric and tactful, and those are properties I appreciate; Paladins: They closely match the idea of a Paladin, more so than many other orders. Though all match the idea, especially Windrunners, the Truthwatchers match the idea of both healing and being warriors of light; Green: Green is one of my favourite colours :-P (Blue and White are my favourites, but Green comes in third). Also their symbol is very evocative of plants, and I like things that grow. Which Orders are your favourites? Thanks :-)

Remember everyone, you can colour code or put other indications around sections as a reminder to get back to them in later drafts to flesh out - if you can't think of how something looks, put in a tag like: "Fredrick's ship exited the star-web and came into orbit around [planet 2 - main setting world]. It was a cold world, [how it looks - lots of blue, small frozen ocean], with the light of its distant star barely visible, like [metaphor]. He smiled. It was good to be home." And then add those details later. Just MOVE. Hope everyone does well!

@Fractalfire I theorised that Odium and the Wisdom or similar shard form a block of four detailing about how one thinks, with Odium being the emotional in-the-now method of thinking. The Wisdom shard could be then the logical looking-to-the-future shard. So if Odium is about how you are feeling right now and so acting on that and trying to shape the future to match how you feel in the present, this shard would be the exact opposite, being cool and rational and taking a much longer view. If it is in the same block then using the same naming system as Odium could make sense, though other possibilities include Logic or Foresight or Rationality, or similar meaning archaic words. (The other two in the block would be an emotional looking-to-the-future shard of "Dreams" or positive emotional heart-thinking, and a logical in-the-now shard of "Pragmatism", interested in the immediate future rather than the distant. Just some possibilities.)

The thing to remember is that there are three big empires, and lots and lots of smaller ones that - if Elantris and the Emperor's Soul are any indication - are slowly being absorbed into them. There is still lots of room for small or medium sized kingdoms and city states, especially considering Sel is so massive. Any type of civilisation could be present as a smaller group, and hopefully they still exist in later stories as well.

I wonder if this can tie into my theory on the remaining shards. Wisdom is listed as one but with the caviate for all of them that it is a possible name referencing a certain idea rather than the exact shard. Honour is, I think, a shard which points to the others with the different orders, and so Honour and this Wisdomesque shard together could be either Wisdom or Prudence via the Elsecallers, who are wise and careful, or the Prudence shard could be Pragmatism. [Edit] To clear up some potential ambiguity, what I mean is that the shard that is similar to Wisdom but isn't Wisdom could become the Shard of Wisdom if it combined with Honour, just as Preservation and Honour would be Protection, and a hypothetical Vengeance Shard could become Justice with Honour, each matching an Order.

@Elegy People always seem to forget Africa. Africa has a long history of civilisations and empires. This doesn't rule out the possibility of combining empire ideas as well, such as a Middle-Eastern, African, and American hybrid.

@Karger it is possible that the process is highly costly, requires skills lost early on that the Heralds can't replicate themselves, or that the spren themselves are adverse for whatever reason, that the process kills two seperate beings to make a third, and so is only done in emergencies. @The traveller that also makes sense, making only the number needed for the population at the time. I like that :-) it might even be a combination of things, like merging the objects spren with another spren, or combine that object spren with a surge, transforming it. Though I think a key thing is that the Oathgates have two spren, so does the object spren split into two, or split into two and combine with two other spren? Interesting idea! I personally prefer to think that due to their mostly static nature spren would usually take option 2, but that does make sense.

Shard minds are powerful and can perform many actions at once - I think later books might even compare them to A.I., and Leras was able to maintain several copies communicating with people as they died. Maintaining enough awareness to edit information on the fly for a specific person or location doesn't seem impossible, and if they make a splinter to perform that task ...

Well the topic does mention the surge of transportation ;-P I mean that those two orders which share that surge also have other surges which I think are involved in making the Oathgates. I suspect Cohesion can affect reality as well as matter, and transformation possibly covers all types of transformation, so also changing the nature of a location. However, their appearance in the physical realm is like a ball of light, which I think was described as white, and definitely was described as comet-like, which usually are white, and both Oathgate spren have a shimmering quality to them. If this theory is right then the Oathgate spren also seem to be changed in some way, which could also reflect in some cognitive changes, including linking their minds for example. Either way, Inkspren and Lightspren both seem to be two extremes in terms of appearance - metallic and oily - while retaining a shimmer, and Willshapers are described as being associated with the ideas of being builders - so builders with the power of teleportation, along with scholars with the power of teleportation, and a fabrial which would likely require skilled builders and scholars to make with two spren which have strong similarities in appearance to the spren of those two orders.

To be clear, do you mean you disagree with the Oathgate spren being Inkspren and Lightspren or their cousins, or that Oathgates required Willshapers and Elsecallers to make?

Does anyone else think it is rather suggestive that the two spren in Oathgates - when not corrupted - are a giant black spren, and a giant white spren, while the two Orders associated with the surge of transportation are Elsecallers and Willshapers, with Inkspren and Lightspren respectively? So, I think the Oathgates are made by a combination of both orders, with Transformation and Cohesion, so resolute builders working with those who are wise and careful, using Cohesion to partially break down reality and Transform it into a teleportation zone. The question then, is are the two giant spren newly made for the Oathgate, or did they get bound into it, and in either case are they an Inkspren and a Lightspren, or spren related to each species? What are your thoughts?

... I KNEW I didn't search for that! Side note, but this also implies that Harmony can send text messages once they have the technology.

@Karger I've wondered that myself, though I think if that happens the biggest impact on distances in the Cognitive realm probably come from the more powerful intellects, and shards have powerful minds as well as a knowledge of the distances involved - still, that would also help explain why space ships become important in era 4, due to the normal methods using the cognitive realm being made unusable due to that belief. Also, your second idea reminds me of mass drivers - that would be fun, Windrunner / gravity fabrial based ground launch systems, possibly with Bondsmiths to power them up further! In theory that actually could be used to launch masses at relativistic speeds at Braize, especially if the Windrunners / pressure fabrials removed the atmospheric drag from the mass.

This is the third of an intended series of nine posts outlining the relation of the shards. Before I begin, I would just like to clarify something from the previous post, about the nature of the previous four shards outlined. To make a slight correction in that logic, Devotion and Mercy can also apply to groups, companies, governments, etc., and so counting them as people. The contrast between system and people is more one of rules vs individuals or objects – proceeder vs item, and which is more important. Now, on to the “WHAT you should THINK” group. This group covers – in a sense – the motivation behind one's actions, the type of goals one should be thinking on. Unlike the previous group, this consists of three shards that are known. The purpose of this post is to show how they relate to one another, and the missing fourth shard Let us begin again with ORDER, which in this sense is about control – not control in the sense of Dominion, which wanted everyone to fall in line, control of people, but control of one's situation, control as in restrictions. ORDER, the right way – Honour. Honour values restrictions, a code, for if one doesn't restrain oneself one is but an animal. Promises should be kept, agreements held to, and that which is imposed on oneself should be maintained. Honour thus seeks to keep control of oneself, for controlling oneself is the difference between an animal and a thinking being. (Honour places obligations and restraints on oneself, for both one's own good, and for the good of others) ORDER, any way – Ambition. Ambition also sees the value of restrictions, but applied to other people, and not to oneself. Do anything you must to achieve your goals, but bind and restrict others so that you can, provided, of course, that it helps you. Chaos and order can both be weapons in the hands of Ambition, for it is chaos used to further the order Ambition wishes to achieve, and order used to bind others to Ambitions goals. Ambition wants an ordered world, with order being defined by Ambition, of course. And Ambition will bind the wills and actions of others if it has to, to achieve that. (Ambition sees the value of chaos as a tool in the service of order – its own. Power must be used, and the best use for power is to elevate oneself.) Now let us look at CHAOS, which in this sense is freedom. CHAOS, any way – Autonomy. Autonomy wants to be free to do what it wants. Autonomy also wants you to be free to do what you want. But if what you want is in any way restrictive to Autonomy, then you have just made an enemy. Your freedoms are well and good, and so long as your freedom's don't impact Autonomy you will be protected, but claim anything as your own that Autonomy wants, make a law that restricts the actions of others even if it ultimately is for their good, and Autonomy will turn against you, for your freedom ends as soon as it touches Autonomy's, and Autonomy will not accept any restriction placed upon it. (Autonomy holds the right to choose to be the greatest right anything can have, so long as your choice doesn't affect anyone else's options, or its own) CHAOS, the right way – Forging. I say Forging, but it could be one of many possible ideas with this goal: help others. Altruism, Creativity, Sharing, Teaching. This idea isn't restrictive, it places no restraints on others, but it will embrace temporary restrictions on itself so as to improve the lives of others. Forging is in many ways similar to both Endowment and Cultivation, but while they place an emphasis on either controlling the flow of gifts or in simply improving what is there, Forging takes the approach that what really matters is the imparting of skills to others so that they can carry on the process of helping others, and will provide tools for them to do so. (The reason the name was chosen will be explained later, but in retrospect I probably would prefer to call it Teaching or Altruism. For now, however, let's use Forging) (Forging wishes to help others to help themselves, to let them choose what they wish to do, and so takes time to make things and impart skills to others to help them do so) Honour and Ambition value control and the placing of obligations, Honour of oneself, Ambition of others, while Autonomy and Forging value freedom, with Autonomy wanting everyone to be free but preferring freedom for oneself, and Forging to make opportunities for freedom for others even if that does entail limited self restriction. Honour is the opposite of Autonomy, for one holds restrictions to be foundational, the other believes restrictions to be both unnecessary and cruel, yet can be combined with the idea of being free to choose what one accepts as a restriction. Ambition will tear down others to build oneself up and to improve its own skills, Forging will give of itself - using its own skills - to help others become more, and can be combined to be willing to do what it takes to help others. Honour and Forging look outwards to what they can do for others, Ambition and Autonomy look inwards to see what can be done for themselves. As these are about how one things, they are fairly easy to reconcile with the first row, with a few trickier ones such as Autonomous Endowment, which gives to others to help them have their own freedoms but also prevents them from restricting others, and Forging Ruin, which will destroy the things that harm others while also tearing down philosophies that fetter their minds, and Ambitious Cultivation, shaping tools to better aid in ones goals. For the second row the combinations become more complex, with again Autonomy acting as a more complex element that doesn't mesh well with Dominion, but does match Vengeance – hunting down those who impinge on other's freedoms – and both Mercy and Devotion – a softer side to Autonomy, trying to help everyone maintain their own freedoms and making isolated havens for those who try to abuse that freedom. A more complete set will God willing be covered in the last of these nine posts. Now, before I complete this entry, there is one other thing to consider. Honour, I think, is a unique shard in many ways, and one of the most significant elements of this is in the Orders of Knight Radiant. As has already been mentioned in this thread, I think each Order is a reference or pointer to another shard, in addition to the internal breakdown of the top five being strongly Honour, bottom five being noticeable Cultivation (while still being Honour), and the left four being slightly Odium. Windrunners = Protecting, Leadership = Preservation (also note their similarity to Mistborn, and the essence being associated with clear vapour) Skybreakers = Just, Confidence = Vengeance Dustbringers = Brave, Obedient = Dominion Edgedancers = Loving, Healing = Devotion / Mercy Truthwatchers = Learned, Giving = Forging / Endowment / Cultivation Lightweavers = Creative, Honest = Dreams / Forging Elsecallers = Wise, Careful = Wisdom Willshapers = Resolute, Builder = Ambition Stonewards = Dependable, Resourceful = Forging / Pragmatism Bondsmiths = Pious, Guiding = Honour (self-referential) / Dreams (I might reevaluate some of these again later in the ninth post.) To this end, I propose that these represent shards that would form if Honour is added to the referenced shard, and so are further useful in helping to define the expected properties, with the true purpose of Preservation being Protection, preserving that which you have an obligation to, and the true nature of Dominion being Obedience, which also allows one to be brave in defying unlawful orders. This is the purpose of those properties once tied to Honour, for Honour already binds them still to their promises. As always I am interested in your thoughts on this topic and your opinions :-)

True, though there is also the possibility that, for example, travel off planet is possible but difficult so long as they travel to another planet or moon in the same planetary system, the investiture of the shards there is throughout the entire Rosharan system unless I am mistaken. Also, if they could interrogate any voidspren they might find the secret if there is indeed one that the voidspren know. Either way the secret need not remain a secret long in the Rosharan system for long if Vashar knows, and he is also a character they will likely be interacting with more. That some know the secret and who are either native or present means the secret isn't an insurmountable issue, and either way it will have to be addressed on screen for space travel to make sense when the planets start sending ships. [Edit] Sorry @Calderis, I didn't tag you earlier!

Fractiles are amazing, beautiful things. Have you ever seen the TED-ed video on them? Done in Noir style

That problem still would have to be overcome by Era 4, and there is this: Note, a few, so not just one. So spren already have left the planet, and for Hoid to be the beggar in Bands of Morning and the earlier two books he would either have to leave his spren behind or find a way to remove it from Roshar. Also, remember voidspren can travel from Braize to Roshar.

Either way the principle holds true - the calculations for Windrunners would likewise work for a Skybreaker with a pressure fabrial, and a ship with both types. And the design is an indication that ships that can move using the surge of gravitation are being designed, they are starting to move towards magical air ships, a step along the way to magical space ships, especially when they have a surge that can make it maintain a viable atmosphere in space using pressure, which Brandon has noted Windrunners can do, and thus so can fabrials.

I myself don't hate Moash, I actually mainly feel pity for him, but I hate a lot of what he did, and I hate that he saluted Kaladin precisely for the very reason you just said. "Thanks buddy! I couldn't have done this without you!" And Moash means it. Thank you Kaladin, your training helped me kill this man.

I just did a search for it, and it looks like a slightly misremembered it: he definitely has calculations for how long it would take to reach the moons, but it doesn't say about the other planets. I'll see if the one I remembered is also there, but this might be it.