Ixthos

There is also Kelsier talking to Spook in Secret History, and also when Odium spoke to Taravangian - but this is something I like as well :-) There also is an implication that when Ruin was sealed by Preservation that that prison was in some way either spiritual or cognitive, and when Kelsier looks at it and seems to be looking in another direction.

The big thing about Mistborn is that the magic systems, being based as you say on the interactions between shards and planets, likely were designed the way they are on purpose - and as Ruin's system is about stealing power and transferring it, and a spike in a body doesn't decay and can be added to by adding more spikes with the same power, it likely was the case that Ruin didn't care if the system diluted, as Ruin probably wanted some agents to emerge from this to use on other worlds, and if they were weaker after a few generations, no problem - just add more spikes. Of course, Ruin thought that Scadrial, likely the latest planet to form in the setting, was like "an old man", so it is possibly that the form of Ruin Ati had tended to focus on more rapid change than the timeless perspective of Preservation - depending on how long ago the bargan was struck Ruin might have only wanted to the planet to survive a few generations. Of course, as Ruin also said to Vin, time meant nothing to him, and so the thousands of years - and the latest thousand when Alendi was thwarted - probably was like having to wait in a line for Ruin - annoying, but he was going to get what he wanted anyway. That does make his anger at loosing the Atium more interesting though, if the power would eventually return to him - probably because by that point all the dead humans would have made Vin his equal again, or possibly even stronger depending on how many people died, so she could keep the fight going indefinitely. Basically, yes, I agree their dynamic is reflected in both the preservation of the system in the families of those who had it, as well as it becoming ruined by spreading out - that part likely is unrelated to Ruin's patience though, especially when Ruin has a method of increasing the power in any individual he wants by the very nature of his system.

The Way of Kings ((t)WoK) Words of Radiance (WoR) Oathbringer (O) Rhythm of War (RoW) .... (t)WoK WoR O RoW **** WoK WoR O RoW KoW The fifth book is going to be KoW

Indeed! And it could explain were the power to make them came from, especially if Odium isn't that interested in loosing power.

I'll start by taking one idea from each of my posts, and all four of @ILuvHats's ideas. So, mythological creatures that have been genetically engineered, nations divided by whether they use genetic engineering or steampunk, magic users oppressed, fairy tale horror, giant sentient prison, and symbiosis based magic. (Note, you don't have to use as many ideas at once, you are free to select as many or as few as you want, but preferably two or more.) This post will cover the initial design - I suspect there will be at least three posts on world building for this, so this is post one. This post will cover first examining the ideas and how they have been used in the example stories so as to design in a different direction, and then looking at the new direction they can go and some initial links. Post 1: General direction I'll start by listing how those ideas were used in each. For some of these I will have to look up a little about the series if I'm not familiar with them: Mythological creatures that have been genetically engineered: in Pern there is a native form of life that resembles a small dragon, and had the ability to teleport, form simple psionic bonds with a human, fly, and breath fire. They were the planet's response to a periodic threat that rained from the sky - a spore called thread - and the humans were initially unaware of this, so when it happened during their settling on the planet they weren't prepared. By forming a new species based off of these fire lizards and restructuring their society, the Pernese were able to survive, with a new class of society formed of the Dragon riders, who protected the planet during thread fall. nations divided over using genetic engineering or steampunk: The Leviathan is an alternate version of history, when during WW1 the German, etc. side uses steampunk machines, and the British, etc. side uses genetically engineered animals as vehicles - so this is set during a period of war magic users oppressed: in the Fifth Season - from what I have read - magic users are either killed on sight by a fearful populous, or forced to work for an organisation called the Fulcrum, which is hardly better. The populous fears them because they can accidentally kill those around them, and have the ability to break the earth with their powers. fairy tale horror: as I understand the setting, Witchers are magical super soldiers, who battle monsters to protect humans. The setting has elves, dwarves, and gnomes, as well as werewolves, dryads, etc., with at least elves and dwarves as second class citizens. According to TV Tropes, the Witcher also deconstructs fairy tales. giant sentient prison: as I understand it, the prison in Incarceron was designed to rehabilitate prisoners to make a perfect society, but something went wrong. The prison is vast, sprawling, has many prisoners, and is always watching, able to kill at a whim. symbiosis based magic: in the Stormlight Archive spren are sentient pieces of magic shaped by human and other ideas, and connected to ten forces. By bonding with someone, who then progresses the bond by making and keeping oaths, this person can access two of those forces, the two depending on the type of spren, as well as use their spren as a weapon, and more besides. The forces based abilities, and general physical enhancements, requires taking in stormlight, a source of magic on the planet that also is tied to the ecosystem. The powers granted can be argued to be an extension of this general symbioses in the ecosystem, as lesser spren likewise bond with other creatures on the planet in order to allow them to function in this environment, such as allowing creatures to grow larger than their mass otherwise would let them. Taking these ideas, pushing them in different directions than from the example, this results in: The creatures are engineered without an existing bases organism, and not to protect the planet but rather to change it A cold war rather than a hot one, and the divide more like the East and the West, with two groups each coming up with their own approach - one genetic engineering and the other steampunk - but between them there is a mixture, and trying to make their form the dominant one Magic users are oppressed for reasons unrelated to their abilities, or their abilities are not directly a threat, and they aren't forced to work for an organisation Fairy tales, and the darker parts of them, but reconstructed rather than deconstructed, showing how they can work. Also, elves, dwarves are present, but they are the first class citizens A large prison, but not a single complex. Rather, the idea of a prison that is distributed, massive and monitoring, but not physical - a prison that is a prison for the mind the magic doesn't require taking in anything but rather it produces magic which needs to be bled off, and rather than the magical organism forming the bond it is instead formed by a human to try to reduce the impact of the magic produced Combining these, we have a base! Magical creatures genetically engineered by one nation or group - a nation of elves or dwarves - who are trying to use the magic produces by the genetically engineered mythical creatures to change the world, and another nation - a nation of elves or dwarves - are developing steampunk technologies to try and stop it Human are caught in the crossfire, and are bonding the magical creatures to try and take control of the magic and prevent it from changing the world, as well as trying to stop the other nations steampunk technology - any creature they bond has its magic restrained The prison is something made by the steampunk faction to try to stop the other nation from making the genetically engineered creatures, the prison being a device worn by the prisoners that they can't take off, which makes them live both in their bodies and in an alternative world where their magic is being drained away in a complex maze ... but if they can find their way out then they can take the device off A mythical creature lives in and controls the prison system, and feeds on the magic - the magic being what allows someone to make the genetically engineered organisms, but different to the magic the genetically engineered creatures produce The story is based on one or more fairy tales. Options include Snow White, Red Riding Hood, The Little Mermaid, Jack and the Beanstalk, and so on. That's it for the moment.

@Impact thanks :-) yours looks cool also :-) I do agree it would be a little strange for a megaspren for flesh if they all represent the essence of flesh, but it could be a spren that represents them just as they represent the spren for the different orders, so the megaspren above the megaspren. So if each spren for the different orders was at the bottom of a triangle, the layer above them would be the megaspren for each order, and the top would be a spren for the megaspen, itself still part of them but above them. While the Stormfather and Nightwatcher in theory represent the essence of flesh due to the Bondsmiths, just as Windrunners represent the essence of wind due to their spren, and Edgedancers represent crystal, etc., they don't seem to have a strong link to it in appearance, so a spren representing that seems to be missing, with all other essences being matched to how the spren look. ... maybe that is where the Unmade came from, the superspren of the megaspren being split into nine and then changed ...

@Bigmikey357 I agree with this for the most part, aside from the implication of bonding lesser spren - I do think that the powers were regulated, constrained, modified, and that those restrains and changes are beginning to crack, and exploits previously unthought of before are being discovered, changing the rules. I don't think lesser spren can typically be bonded or were typically bonded, as I think it requires a higher type of spren to recognise the qualities of a human's presence in the cognitive realm and to make the connection to them when they don't have a gemheart like the parshendi. Otherwise, I like this :-) I've always had the sneaking suspecion that there actually are ten megaspren, one for each essence, a type of super version of the others, so Stormfather is a superhonourspren, which is why he can make new honourspren, the Nightwatcher is a supercultivationspren, or maybe highspren or whatever type is for Truthwatchers, etc. and each is for a different essence - Stormfather is for wind, Nightwatcher is smoke or plants, Sibling is stone. So there should be seven more for the other essences, and a significant one for the essence of flesh, which matches the essence associated with them. I definitely think that there is more the surges can do than the Knights previously thought, such as with Kaladin blowing back the storm, probably using adhesion.

@ILuvHats I'm not very familiar with those series, but those look like cool ideas :-) Three more and then we can start! Portals between worlds (Stargate franchise) Symbiosis based magic (The Stormlight Archive) Time travel battles (Terminator franchise)

I have read it, but it doesn't really elaborate on what you mean by a soul. Real world cultures use the term for different things - my own beliefs involve the soul being the will, mind, and emotions of someone, the entirety of a person, while others say soul when they mean the thing that animates you and makes you alive but doesn't have anything of you inside it, etc. So then, when you mean acting like a soul, do you mean the power is able to "think", or can be made to think, or can hold instructions and execute orders? As in, does it already have a mind, or can be given a mind, or can act like a mind or support a mind without actually being a mind? Do you mean soul as in mind, or soul as in power source of life, or both, basically? Also, I edited my previous post to note it might be a good idea to add a link to your main post so that those who find this doesn't get lost and so they are aware of what this is about :-)

I think much more setting context is needed to answer your questions in the poll - without context it is almost impossible to give helpful feedback. Could you give a little more detail on the history of the world, how the scec'ar and humans came into contact and the different cultures of the two, where it originates from for the scec'ar or if they have always had it, how they could use it in their nature focused way, how soon after humans began to interbreed with them it was passed to them and how this affected their culture and so on - basically, what is the history and use of this system for the native peoples?

That's a little formal isn't it? :-P Before I can vote, I need to know what you mean in the second section, about it being like a soul. Do you mean a soul as in the actual person with all the organs of mind and emotion, or something which animates the body but doesn't have its own mind? Is it something that can survive without a body or only in a body? What do you mean by a soul? [Edit] It might be important to also add a link to the post you initially made about the system so others who find this poll later know what it is about.

Hi everyone! I have a suggestion - let's practice worldbuilding, with on-the-fly suggestions and feedback. This can be a little like "Whose-Line-is-it-Anyway?" improv mixed with a general critique, as well as a chance to show off your process. How this is proposed to work: You can do up to three things in this thread: You can propose world building ideas and list an example of them in existing fiction You can use ideas suggested in the thread to world build You can give feedback on what someone else has world built, remembering to be descriptive rather than proscriptive, and focusing on the good while not neglecting the bad You may do any combination of the above in a single post The first few posts - and any subsequent ones later - should be the world building ideas, preferably listing an example of how it was done before SO THAT WHAT IS BUILT USING IT IS NOT A COPY. For example, if the idea proposed is "mythological creatures that have been genetically engineered", then an example listed would be "The Dragon Riders of Pern", so that if someone uses that suggestion they know to try to push the world building in a different direction to Pern's After a few posts have been made with world building suggestions subsequent posts can then include people selecting from among those suggested and doing some basic work with those ideas, again trying to push them in a different direction than the source Ideas proposed can be worn out cliches, terrible ideas, etc., or your favourite tropes from your favourite series. They are seeds to be used by anyone who chooses to use them. The way they are used is up to whoever decides to use them After world building someone may then critique the setting, which can be subsequently revised afterwards So, with that said, here are a few world building suggestions: Space faring civilisation of explorers (Star Trek) Mythological creatures that have been genetically engineered (The Dragon Riders of Pern) Single undesirable planet the source of something the civilisation needs (Dune) Gender specific magic (The Wheel of Time) Knights from a religious order trained by mystics from another religion (The Elenium) Organisation that is tracking down and containing mysterious artefacts (Warehouse 13) Hope you have fun!

To be fair, I think some theories are a combination of these ( or all of them), so should theories that are a mixture - like as you note the secondary spren theory being a part of others - count as their own type, or as subtypes? :-P

@Karger the only problem is that that issue applies to all forms of making plate - any method of making plate, unless a person can only make a single version, makes the question of the exclusivity of the plate a key issue: why can a knight only make one plate? And the answer is either it has a little of the knight or spren inside it, a part that can't be removed or duplicated, or knights can make more, but otherwise don't or didn't see the need.

@Ammonakin

Then it most likely - again, assuming the theory is correct - is the latter, with the knight being a vital component in the plates formation, the reference point the spren, stormlight, and surges use.

@Gderu The thing to note is that none of them have manifested the completed plate, which implies, if Jasnah doesn't yet have it, that they are still missing something, and once plate is completed - once the plate has been made - it wouldn't need to be recreated each time, only summoned. The spren likewise are manifestations of the surges - Investiture only interferes with opposing investiture, which is why Windrunner plate can fly and other orders can't - there is no reason to think a spren which embodies the concept of gravity would resist the surge of gravitation, etc. As for the part about if it makes the story better or not, we will have to agree to disagree. I will say though that the knights are all about the surges and about stormlight, so having the surges being integral to the forming of the armour isn't as big a stretch as you are implying, but this is something which we will have to disagree on. @Bigmikey357 That could work, though as the spren are partially manifestations of the surges, I think this also could work with the surges being what completes the process of forming plate. @Feruchemical Skybreaker Thanks :-) I do agree the Truthwatchers are a bit of a stretch, but it could work if the plate is considered something alive, and so would require progression to help make it more so. Still, that is a good point :-) @Honorless Thanks! :-) @Karger maybe one can, and the older knights never thought to do it, or did but what they made is hidden ;-) or perhaps the plate has to form around someone, their spirit web forming the blueprint the lesser spren flow around to become the scaffolding.

I guess the key question in the thread then is, if you can make a sword and the illusion of someone to wield that sword, and that sword has the power to cut through real matter - after all, a sword is functionally a wedge, and a wedge works by forcing apart two sides of an object as it is pushed deeper into them, so it is all about force - due to being able to convey a force, is that illusion real? If you can make an illusionary table, and that table can hold the weight of a cup, is it real?

... Hang on, are you comparing solid material to water, or illusions to water? As in, if illusions had the same properties as water, and you could float something in it, would you count that as solid? Or rather that even though the illusion has resistance it still isn't as real as water? Basically, do you mean solid as in real or solid as in immovable?

Perhaps it would be best to discuss that on that thread, rather than on this one - let us not derail the topic. If I recall correctly, the plate Shallan was wearing seemed to be somewhat solid, and each order having access to their own method of making plate could help keep the orders diverse. Nevertheless it is only a theory, and while it is true that the simple answer usually is correct that is dependent on the evidence available. If you are in your car and the windscreen is wet, it probably is because its raining. Unless you see fish swim past, then you probably are underwater. This isn't a theory about how the world works, but about what would make an interesting story, and I think the surges, lesser spren, and possibly the support orders all working together would make the idea of each order gaining shardplate in a different way more interesting, and can also allow Brandon to remain closed lipped more easily because he can't talk say how plate is produced because it is unique to each order. How much resistance would be needed for the illusion to count as solid?

@Quantus I'm so glad you asked :-P http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/78164-each-order-gains-plate-slightly-differently-but-with-similar-principles/

I think you mean Soulcasting, but yes, I think the two together can be used to make something which is solid - after all, the cognitive realm is made of perception, so an illusion possibly would develop a degree of a presence there. The two combined together is to make the "lie" of the illusion into something real, which is what Lightweavers are all about.

"Please state the nature of the Soulcasting emergency." I personally think that using Lightweaving and Soulcasting together is part of the process Lightweaver shardplate is made, so I think this could work, especially if Lightweavers are a match to the Midnight Mother and her Midnight Essences, but I suspect that if it is the case then Lightweaver simulations are probably vulnerable to some type of disruption to prevent them from being an entire army by themselves.

Cheater :-P :-D

As in the shards recombinding? That certainly is one possibility :-) do you think it will need a vessel, or will it be its own vessel? Also, do you mean all the main characters - or major characters - from different worlds meeting? I think Brandon mentioned that the emphasis isn't on characters crossing over in the end, but rather worlds and cultures. Some probably will, but I think it is unlikely that characters from every period on any given world will meet.