The Technovore

Well also note that Marasi moved like a whole, what, 50 feet while moving hypersonic+ for her brief half-second, right? I don't think that's enough air to get super hot via compression, so Marasi's case probably can't really be used anyway? EDIT: The real problem is that the more we argue about these kinds of details and semantics, the more clear the system inconsistencies get and the less reliable WoBs and books become. What's eventually going to happen is that our modernist philosophy concerning Realmatics is going to break down, causing philosophical chaos in our society as we completely lose faith in concepts like reality and objective truth. All will Tremble in the Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation...

Since this came up twice I'll just choose the shorter one to respond to but also @Bejardin1250 Okay, so by logical extension shouldn't we remove all the accolades and awards from every physicist and mathematician we know? Because I'm sure for every Newton and Galileo that got their works published and recognized there was between 1 and 12 monks and scholars who came up with the same ideas but then got killed as heretics or just never published. If math and physics are discovered, not invented, then why do we honor anyone with discovering anything at all? It seems strange to deny anyone any kind of credit simply because they didn't get there first. Again with the marathon analogy--why does it matter if someone finished a marathon first, second, or tenth, or thirtieth? They ran the marathon. Who's arguing that she was the first? She was the one that mattered. Ah well, I've said my piece. I'll say no more. I do still relish the way this thread illustrates Hoid's WoK story so perfectly.

2 incorrect assertions I've seen: "We know who invented Anti-Light and it wasn't Navani" Wrong. We know that Gavilar had a sphere of Anti-Light and likely knew what it was. There is no indication that he invented it, or that the person who gave it to him invented it. Anti-Light has existed since Adonalsium, because that's how physics works. It's not Invented, but discovered. The first discoverer of Anti-Light is either dead, or is an insane Herald. Navani performed no plagiarism. If someone else got to it first then post-RoW they're not going to care because they're dead or they believe that they're Adonalsium reincarnated. Navani gets credit for her own work. Her work discovered Anti-Light. I'm not going to budge on that. "Navani was stupid because she gave the enemy a superweapon." Um. She created the only superweapon that would've saved Team Radiant's butts. Killing Fused wasn't going to work as long as the Everstorm was around. She created the only viable way to kill a Fused. Team Odium also received the only viable way to kill a Spren, but ultimately it's a leveling of the playing field, not a "oh no the enemy got an awesome weapon" moment. Fact 1: Without a meaningful way to deplete enemy resources, Team Radiant is essentially screwed Fact 2: Anti-Light gives Team Radiant a way to meaningfully deplete enemy resources. Fact 3: If Team Odium got ahold of this, Team Radiant would also face being depleted. Fact 4: Having two armies capable of actually destroying each other is better than 90% of humans and singers dying on the battlefield as their immortal sources of power constantly recycle themselves new bodies. (Fused doing so forcibly, Radiants doing so mostly-voluntarily.) Honestly, I don't much expect threads of this nature to concern themselves to such inconvenient things like intellectual honesty or even-handed analyses (i.e. the Shallan hate thread, the Adolin hate thread, the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread) because ultimately people will see and believe what they choose to see and believe, facts be stormed. And that's okay. Really it is. It's a bit disappointing to see sometimes, especially when I happen to disagree, but people have a right to be open-minded, close-minded, Navani hating or #NavanibestGirl. I'm not a massive Navani fan. Like Camille I think RoW probably could've benefited from not focusing so much on her. It would've been cool if the Venli/Willshaper book was actually about Venli and other Willshapers, instead of Venli being shunted to minor-MC status and instead RoW being Bondsmith Book #2. But personally I think taking the Navani-hate to this level is ignoring a lot of things from the books and purposefully twisting things to a particular PoV.

Are we still on "Does Navani get credit for anti-light?" Because funnily enough this exact argument comes up in the books. Hoid at the end of WoK talked about what humans value most. Remember? He talked about how two scholars could be independently working on the same thing, but if one scholar publishes first, and then the second scholar publishes, everyone looks at the second scholar like they didn't achieve anything. If Navani didn't discover something new, if someone else on Roshar holds this power, does it really make her achievement any less? Everyone she ever talked to--including the millennia-old scientist--thought it was impossible. She used only the tools she had and no outside knowledge to create both Warlight and Anti-Light. Navani had no way of knowing if either was possible. People told her it wasn't. She found that it was. If this was a marathon, Navani would've come second, or fifth, or fortieth. Does that really matter? She ran the entire marathon on her own two feet without even knowing whether there was a finish line. Her (fictional because we're arguing about book characters lol) accomplishment is her own and should not be discredited. EDIT: I think we're conflating worthiness with deserving: Do any of the Kholins deserve to be Radiants? Renarin and Adolin maybe, but their family has a long history of atrocities. Do they deserve this power? No. In fact they probably deserve a long long prison sentence. No one deserves anything. Every one has hurt others. Every one has been cruel at least once, perhaps deliberately. But seeing as how we do get mercy, we do get forgiveness, we do have these things that we do not deserve, then we can make good use of them. We can become worthy to have them. The Kholins did not deserve their powers. But they've grown into their powers. They've used their powers to help, to save, to unite. They are not deserving, but they are worthy.

Yea, not accurate. I don't think I've seen a single person argue that Roshar dominates unilaterally. Everyone you've been battling with here has had conversations and honest speculations on the way Scadrial could come out on top, except maybe Frustration. You've been the only one besides maybe Publius that has argued a unilateral overwhelming victory for Scadrial, but at least Publius has had some mechanics and evidence from the books and previous WoBs backing it up, instead of asserting Aluminum Compounding is somehow the catch-all "hack my way into all the magics and be invincible." What you *have* seen argued is that Radiants wouldn't be bullied by just any magic user, that an Oath 4 would have a chance against a Mistborn because sprenplate won't fall apart with a single pewter-punch, that Scadrial might not have the overwhelming technology and tactics advantage it did before Navani and Co discovered Anti-Light and started mimicking Surges 10 years before Era 2 NoScad discovered medallions. You've seen bias for Roshar, bias for Scadrial, a really good argument that a Hemalurgically constructed Fullborn would likely be a massive threat, that a Mistborn would have a good shot of killing an Oath 4 with the right metals and tools, and you've seen a LOT of pushback on the assertions that: F-Iron compounders can be black holes F-Steel compounders can be the flash F-Identity is better than all of Hemalugry and Bondsmithing combined That Radiants are pushover punching bags waiting for a Scadrian to stab. I've argued for both sides myself, so it's a touch insulting to see this unfair reframing of the opposing arguments. Are you in all seriousness trying to assert that therunner, who has brought more math, objectivity, and fairness to this whole thing, is trying to say Radiants are invincible? Since I can't speak for everyone, and since it's rude to do so, I'll speak for myself. Nightblood is the ultimate weapon in the Cosmere. Sprenblades are really storming good, better than guns in most ways except for range, but they are not the ultimate. Shardplate is really good and can sustain a lot of damage, providing strength and protection to exceed a-pewter, but it's not the ultimate. Sustained gunfire could likely overwhelm it easily. It grants superhuman speed and strength comparable to or exceeding A-Pewter, but if it does exceed A-pewter, it wouldn't be by much. Nahel Bond Healing is approximately equal to or less than F-Gold compounding, and it's certainly more effective than normal F-Gold storing. Radiants are so powerful that there is no contest between them and Mistings or Ferrings under almost any circumstance. Mistborn, some Compounders, and Feruchemists are a more even matchup, and Fullborn absolutely slap Radiants. There are not enough martial examples of metalborn powers to justify the speculation you've put forth based on described properties. The ultimate Radiant order is the Bondsmith who can provide massive amounts of Stormlight and has a lot of potential with their Spiritual Connection abilities that we've only scratched the surface on. Because of this the best Scadrial can do is force a stalemate or attempt more subversive tactics to undermine Roshar until their magic-hacking or superweapon abilities are developed enough to seize victory or splinter the Rosharan Shards. There IS a reason Rayse chose Roshar over Scadrial, and why Rayse saw the Rosharan humans conquering the cosmere under his rule. Scadrial is not necessarily weaker--Hemalurgy is a great way to magic-hack one's way to victory. But speculation, insults, snark, and dishonestly reframing the discussion to make everyone else look like fools will get us nowhere. Are there ANY other avenues of discussion or mechanics that we can take this conversation to? Identity arguments are getting nowhere and we've touched on almost every base I can think of. Anyone else? Or shall we just wait for The Last Metal to come out so we can hash it out in the next iteration of this thread? (laughing emoji goes here lol)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/148/#e2780 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7128 @BenduLuke Here's proof of Rosharan Worldhoppers. You said this without citing anything. That's the main problem, it's why you're getting so much pushback for things. Folks are throwing out links, and citations to the books and to the author themselves, and, your arguments would be improved if you would or could do the same. I mean this not to be confrontational, but to be honest, and hopefully to give some helpful feedback. It's not difficult for Rosharans to leave. It's difficult for Spren to leave. Therefore it's currently difficult for Radiants to leave. But we know from the books that it is indeed possible, through Identity or Connection shenanigans. @therunner already went through some speculation on how it could happen, but the fact that it does happen is already fact. There's nothing to debate on whether it is possible, it's just a matter of how it will happen.

But the Fourth Wall remained firm and completely unchanged. Unfortunately the forth wall's melting had started a chain reaction that would soon completely destroy the First, Second, and Sixth Walls.

@therunner I think you've just closed the book on "can steelrunners run at mach speeds" pretty handily. I wish I had more upvotes to give, you're the best contributor here imo. The reasons it doesn't work mirror the reasons I cited for F-Iron compounding not allowing for gravity-manipulation. While *theoretically* Feruchemy seems to be able to reach these numbers, the actual mechanics of Allomancy and Feruchemy seem to function specifically to make them unattainable. Probably Brandon trying to make sure that the metallic arts don't give you anime-style super saiyans. @Publius, thanks for this high effort post. Allow me to potentially poke some holes in it. If you're making a Fullborn with Hemalurgy, that's going to result in a couple of weaknesses, especially if you're starting with someone who's not a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist. There's the Linchpin spike, but of course it shouldn't be hard for a Fullborn to keep you away from that. There's also the issue of opening yourself up to Shards. One Wob https://wob.coppermind.net/events/71/#e2797 seems to state that for spiked individuals, any Shard can communicate, but Ruin/Harmony takes precedence in controlling them. It seems that this monstrocity of a Fullborn would be the quintessential Champion of Harmony (or Discord?). So, it seems plausible, essentially since we're working with the "United Scadrial" hypothetical. Do note that F-speed is now... essentially proven by established mechanics to not be feasible at Mach speed, which means that while compounders are a great threat, they're not weapons of mass destruction like previously thought. I think there's a lot of questions about Shardplate summoning--Jasnah describes hers as "waiting in Shadesmar", Kal's is described as "always there but insubstantial until I need it", which may just be his more uneducated way of saying the same thing. I would relent that if that's true, if you get a Leecher on a Radiant before they have their blade or plate out, they won't be able to summon it without shaking the Leecher's grip, although I would guess that if the Blade or Plate was already out, the Leecher would be signing their own death warrant. So the thing with the Fullborn. Is there a weakness? If they're compounding everything properly (F-Zinc, A-Copper, F-Steel, F-Pewter, A-Pewter, F-Nicrosil, etc, etc,) the answer is no. Even a Mistborn with an unkeyed Zinc Metalmind would wipe the floor with nearly every Radiant, because that extra mental speed would let them manipulate their Iron and Steel to essentially be Magneto, like Kelsier fighting the Inquisitor, but better. I think that because Roshar's baseline magic user (Oath 3 Radiant) really is very powerful, a well thought out trap and a team of Radiants that have Blades, Plate, Gravitation, Division, Transformation, Progression (can revive the dead) and a Bondsmith would be capable of killing a Fullborn, but boy is that a long shot. I'm not going to lie. Going along these lines, Scadrial is fully capable of winning. Probably until it's proven that this scenario is somehow impossible, or until Roshar is revealed to be able to do a similar thing, Scadrial wins in this scenario. "Shardbearers can't hold ground", meaning that Fullborn alone couldn't conquer Roshar, but they could do enough damage to the Radiants that the Scadrians do full victory. So basically I failed to poke holes in Publius's post, lol.

Reading comprehension moment. "The spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture." That's the spiritweb. "Their borders defined by their Identity." If the Spiritweb was the city of Luthadel, Identity would be the city walls, Connections being the roads and buildings, and the people being the Investiture. It's not a perfect metaphor, but there you go. Are the wall sof Luthadel the entirety of Luthadel? No. But it is an important piece that defines "what is Luthadel" from "what is [Insert City Here]." What you're theorizing is that by compounding Aluminum you can essentially remove the city walls, and then rebuild them to also include an entirely different city and that's going to be just fine and only do good things for you. Speculation that unfounded is outside of the realms of intellectual honesty in this discussion. Did you read what I said? The Coppermind is consistently wrong, it's being changed and updated constantly. It's not written by Brandon like Frustration said. NO. The Coppermind is not as valid as any of the WoBs. It's an effective refresher on names and places and trivia facts, but you CANNOT form an accurate basis on magic mechanics by just reading and quoting the Coppermind.

A refreshing perspective, have an upvote. I think if we had a Mistborn with a couple Feruchemical powers via medallion, they'd be able to handle (nearly) any Oath 4 1-on-1 (Duralumin + Pewter + a hammer or mace solves the plate cracking issue), but I think if they had to deal with more than 2 Radiants at a time they'd die or be forced to retreat pretty quickly, especially if one of them is an Edgedancer.

Okay, so you know how Wikipedia isn't a valid citation in any academic or school paper? That's because it's edited by the (somewhat knowledgable) public and therefore is prone to error and corruption. Same deal applies here. I see conversations at least twice a week about how a detail or sentence in the Coppermind is wrong, and needs changing or fixing. Point is, the Coppermind does NOT provide a fully accurate or valid basis of knowledge for any topic. Any citations to the Coppermind will be questionable, and if all your knowledge is based on the Coppermind, you're in for a world of hurt when debating cosmere mechanics (much like what you've been getting in this thread, coincidentally). It's really best to be able to point at things in the books directly or at WoBs. WoBs are generally as canon until a book contradicts one or a later WoB contradicts an earlier one. Hope that's helpful. Also, Bendu, I think the confusion is in the distinction between a Spiritweb, and Identity. A Spiritweb is the entirety of someone's "code" in the Spiritual Realm. Investiture, Connection, Identity, (and Fortune?) are all pieces of that spiritweb. Identity is what tells apart Sazed from Kelsier. Connection and Fortune involve Kelsier's Connection to Ruin and Preservation, and his destiny as inciting the Skaa rebellion, and Sazed's Connection to Vin, Kelsier, and being the Hero of Ages (being Hero of Ages probably also involves a heavy dose of Fortune and Identity). Investiture is the innate power, it's what makes Kelsier a Mistborn and Sazed a Feruchemist. I think the basis of all these problems, Bendu, is that you've conflated Identity with Spiritweb. If you went back to all of your previous statements about Identity, and replaced the word with "Spiritweb", and suddenly your conjectures would be making a LOT more sense. You'd be right in that Connection and Identity are crucial pieces of a Spiritweb. But you'd be wrong that they are largely the same thing, as they describe two different aspects of the Spiritweb. Even in your Quicksilver scenario--Quicksilver's antics would be making a lot more sense if you described it as him manipulating his entire Spiritweb (which is unlikely to be able to accomplish with just Aluminum compounding, you'd need to be a Full Feruchemist or Fullborn). Hope that helps as well. Also aluminum is most definitely NOT Anti-Investiture, it doesn't interact with Investiture at all except to make it stop working, If it was Anti-Investiture it would immediately explode or combust whenever a Metalborn tried to use it.

LOL nvm, I didn't see the entirely new page full of stuff contesting this.

It's likely that while the descriptions we have in WoR and WoK include only the main six 3d vectors (up, down, left, right, forward, backward), the actual mechanics of gravitation mean that you can essentially pick any vector and move that way. This would make sense considering the description of the much more complex flying patterns of Radiants in... uhm... *cough* anyway-- That's just my conjecture though, I'm not sure if it answers your question. It does stand to reason that the vectors of the two lashing in different directions would add together, changing your direction.

EDIT: In the dark night, a completely unremarkable shooting star streaked across the sky. It was super pretty. I'll just jump in as the "friendly NPC" when they get back in time , thanks @xinoehp512

@Kingsdaughter613, I think you're making "The Ghostbloods" into a feel-good sitcom with wacky cosmere shenanigans and I LOVE it.

I--*inhale* *exhale*, my suspension of disbelief would allow for someone with the ability of Wax, or of Kelsier, or of Jasnah, and being the servant of a Shard. Quicksilver seems to have the powers of all of them. That's hard to believe. That's a protagonist, right there. I was under the impression that we weren't supposed to be using protagonists as prime examples of magic system capabilities. How would Quicksilver fare against Oath 4 Kaladin? The scabbard fits the sword perfectly--it's shard enough to be an effective sword on it's own. Nightblood's scabbard is specially made for nightblood, and the tightness of the scabbard means that nightblood doesn't hit the scabbard with momentum and weight, like it did for the rage-fueled swing at the Honorblade. "How thick does it need to be able to block a shardblade." Not stupidly thick, but it will chip, and bend, and deform, and break under sufficient physical force. Like that behind a hammer swing. Like @Frustration said, just grabbing up any room for interpretation and using it as liberally as possible is both counterintuitive and disingenuous. Do you see us talking about how they could make plate as thick as they wanted because all they need is more spren so they could make entire sprentanks? Do you see us theorizing that you could use Gravitation to outperform any other siege artillery by miles, short of railguns? (which, by the way, @therunner ran the math on that in another thread. They make trebuchets look like weenies.) Do you see us talking about Division just melting all Scadrian Armies or using Anti-Light to kill Harmony or using Connection-y Bondsmith Powers to turn windspren into honorspren, or to steal Metalborn abilities? All of that (exception of one that actually has some mathematical backing) would be dishonest of us because this is a discussion about what we know that each magic system can do based on the evidence that is released up to now. We know that Radiants will be able to leave Roshar and take their spren with them. This requires a changing of the spren spiritweb to no longer be connected to Roshar, which would require something happening with the Shard of Honor and likely its perpendicularity. I can speculate that Dalinar will win the Contest of Champions by ascending to the Shard of Honor. Shortly after doing this he kills Odium and takes up that Shard as well, forming the Shard of War (or Conquest). He'll believe that he can temper Odium's Intent, but quickly falls to it. Then he'll turn his sights on Scadrial, and, realizing that they also have a DiShard and their agents are on Roshar, he'll begin making preparations to de-invest his Shard from Roshar, which will allow his Radiants to cross the CR to Scadrial. Since he has incredible Shardic knowledge, he'll inspire the scholars at Urithiru and bring to Rosharans guns, armor, tanks, better flying airships, and knowledge on how to use the surges and fabrials to out-tech Scadrial. War moves into the Scadrian system and punches a hole through the CR in the middle of Elendel. His Skybreakers and Dustbringers flood out and turn the city to ash. Since Harmony was under pressure from its conflicting Intent and from Trell, he can do very little to stop War except by Snapping as many metalborn as possible. Unfortunately for every metalborn he snaps, another thousand Scadrians die to the blitzkrieg of Skybreakers tearing apart every military and economic asset they have. Then through War's perpendicularity emerges the proper Rosharan army. The infantry, loaded with guns, Anti-Light grenades, and Shardblades made from the dead Voidspren that War killed when he took up Odium. They destroy NorScad within a week, and begin invading SoScad, their surges leaving scorched earth in their wake. When War shows his Radiants how they can use surges to split the atom, fire lasers, cleave the earth in two, and cause tectonic instability on a grand scale, they can turn Scadrial into the new Ashyn at their whim. Did any of that make sense, given what we know? Probably not. I expect everyone here to tear it apart. But hey, there's a lot we don't understand about realmatics. Can anyone actually prove me wrong? Do you see the problem? If we're just going to speculate as much as possible, this is going to turn into a couple of five-year-olds' "imagination duel" where one goes "I shoot you with my death star!" and the other goes "nuh-uh! I have a force field tha--that blows up death stars!" Speculation and imagination is fun, but there needs to be more reasonable limits or this won't go anywhere.

Granted, but now you can't do social stuff. I wish for a fish burrito with lettuce, mustard, pico de gallo, bit of sour cream, and also make it gourmet. Also can I super-size it? And a size of fried onions please. Edit: "Your ban is that you can't walk on grass anymore." I like to imagine that if they tried their legs would just rebel and go somewhere else instead. And then if they tried to throw themselves face-first into the grass, they'd just levitate like an inch above it, before hovering over to where there wasn't grass and falling to the ground.

Holy crap the sheer amount of collateral damage NB could cause in the CR boggles the mind. EDIT: Wait crap I'm supposed to participate uhh... Awakening your dating sim game so it becomes sentient and--wait no they did that already--uhhmmm... Actually I like the idea of awakening a quantum computer, if not just to see the world burn. *laughs in Ruin*

You slap down a green skip, then follow up with a red skip, and finally a red +2, followed by a red 4. "Uno!" You shout in triumph, before descending into maniacal villianous laughter. Upon reread it is clear that I have no idea how Uno works.

You eye your opponent, who is clearly suspicious of your 5th-dimensionsal scum tactics. Fortunately, you have an ace in the hole. You reach for the Glock that's strapped to your thigh...

Granted, but the moment I grant this wish, your tongue is soulcasted into butter. It soon melts away, your ability to speak melting with it. It's delicious. I wish for to feel the restedness after doing the sleeps.

Shardblades cut in the Physical and Spiritual Realms because they are literally the bodies of spren. The Spiritual Realm is the realm of Investiture, Connection, and Identity, while the Physical Realm is the realm of Matter and Energy, and the Cognitive is the realm of minds, souls, and perceptions. Spren bridge all three realms. Their spark of life and their bodies comes from the Spiritual, their minds are sprung from the thoughts of humans, and through human thought and the Nahel bond they manifest in the Physical as godmetal. This is not a mistake, as we see godmetal first described in Mistborn as created "from the body of the Shard themself" which is significant in a theory I'm building. This is why when Shardblades cut, they attack the soul directly, in the Spiritual Realm. All the surges work on similar principles. Gravitation. Adhesion. Cohesion. Soulcasting. They are all direct manipulations of Physical processes by manipulating the Cognitive and Spiritual components of objects and beings, fueled by the Investiture that leaks from the Spiritual to the Physical via the Shardic perpendicularities. Hemalurgy works on similar principles to this, using base-16 metals to attack the Spiritweb and steal components, with Ruin's Investiture fueling the interaction. Allomancy works on principles closer to the Dor on Sel. The Investiture of Preservation enters the Physical Realm to exert change, using the metals being burned to determine the effect the power has. If the main types of Invested Arts we see now are either based on affecting the Spiritweb or Directing Shardic Power, Feruchemy sits closely in the middle. Feruchemy allows one to use Investiture to manipulate and twist their own spiritweb in a series of ways. I believe that Identity and Investiture when pertaining to spiritwebs describe two different parts of a spiritweb. I don't think it's Identity that allows a spren's body to cut in the Spiritual, but rather that because a Spren exists as living Investiture, and therefore is innately from the Spiritual Realm, the damage it does is direct to a spiritweb. You might use Connection/Identity shenanigans to speed up the recovery of a spren, but we won't know until the interaction between Adolin and Maya is properly explained. What I don't like about the Quicksilver scenario is that it requires a heavy amount of plot-power in Quicksilver. Quicksilver to do these things must have the aim of Waxillium, the competency of Kelsier, the virtue of Adolin, and the knowledge of Jasnah as well as the planning and foresight that could only come from being the direct servant of a Shard. If we're going to go that route, I could write a similar story about Heln the Edgedancer who under the direction of Cultivation did a bunch of Rosharan-magic hacking and teamed up with Kalak to go to Scadrial and steal the Bands of Mourning to open a perpendicularity on Scadrial and trap Odium in the Scadrian system. While mechanically I can jump through the mental hoops required to make it work mechanically, how likely is it to happen without a ton of plot-armor and authorial manipulations?

@The One Ring Granted, you are now a Slider. However, somewhere in the world someone else has become a Steelrunner/Pewterarm, and are contracted to find you and spike you. I wish to take back my previous lack of wishing. I also wish to become a Slider because I really need more than 24 hours in a day right now and I'm willing to pay for it.

Y'all really be sleeping on Voidbinding being revealed to actually be the fusion of metallic arts and surgebinding. Smh'ing my head rn

Send this to u/mistborn and kindly insist he makes it canon please. Also the fact that you capitalized "Connection" in every mention is just perfect. Bless.