cometaryorbit

Yeah, harmonium/water is more like an ultra powerful chemical explosion, so would be much less crazy. It'd still be very dangerous to use though, for the reason you say: it might need something more like a timed mechanism.

Probably Chromium/Fortune. Too bad we don't know what it really does. Duralumin/Connection has some of the same problem, it sounds super powerful but very little detail. Blank Connection lets you speak a foreign country's language, but that's not the normal use of it - medallions are weird. Apparently Marsh uses it to not be noticed? Of the metals we do know something about, for someone who doesn't spend a lot of time in physically dangerous situations (unlike protagonists), probably either Tin or Zinc.

Yeah, I don't think atium is a sense per se to store in f-tin - seeing shadows is the way the mind interprets the Spiritual Realm info. The expanded mind might mean more mental speed to store in f-zinc though. Although all Allomancy has some degree of mental enhancement to cope with the power; atium seems definitely uniquely so, though, so this might work. I don't think it's worth it though. Not only would the quantity of atium needed be crazy, F-zinc savantism, like any savantism, isn't a pure benefit. Stopping tapping would be bad - and unlike an Allomantic savant or a true Compounder like Miles or TLR, you can't tap constantly.

Psychopomps (Division/Transportation) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will watch Surges: Division and Transportation Division is used to cause objects to burn, decay, or dissolve. Transportation is used to look into the Cognitive Realm or fully transfer between Realms. The combined use of these Surges allows the Psychopomp to create a fire that burns things in the Cognitive Realm. The combination of their Surges also makes it easier for Psychopomps to use Division at longer ranges. Resonance: The Psychopomp has an inherent, very precise sense of elapsed time. While not a true Resonance, this Order has been known to serve as agents of Cultivation or Honor to meet the dying in the Cognitive Realm. Honor gave this role to the Stormfather instead on his death, but he performs it only very rarely. True Spren: Shadowspren. The shadowspren are very rare, second only to Bondsmith Spren - only seven exist (or ever did; none died in the Recreance). These spren represent the necessity of decay and the transitory existence of all Physical and Cognitive things. Platespren: Deathspren Ideals: The theme of Psychopomp Ideals is watchfulness and wariness. First: standard Second: I will watch when others forget Third: I will not forget that catastrophe may come again Fourth: I will accept that others do not share my vigilance The Fifth Ideal is always highly personal. History: After the Last Desolation, this Order never was convinced that the Voidbringer threat was over. They were considered crazy by all other Radiants. Since they still watched for another Desolation, they were unwilling to participate in the Recreance. All were killed by the Skybreakers in a sudden assault by overwhelming force; eighteen Skybreakers, including three of the Fourth Ideal, died before the last Psychopomp fell.

This is a really good concept for the effect of combining two Surges that are kind of conceptually opposed. That's a pretty cool power. This is really interesting and original. I especially like the bond-swapping weirdness. Canonically I don't think Cultivation is quite this capricious- Cultivation is controlled growth, not random change; this feels more like Whimsy - but canon doesn't really matter for this thread.

Another 'just for fun' one that doesn't really fit... Rockburners (Double Division) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will destroy Another group of Surgebinders who were never organized into a proper Radiant Order, in this case it was because Ishar and the early Skybreakers suppressed them fiercely. Once they began to develop Honor strengthened the bindings upon the Surge of Division, which is why Skybreakers and Dustbringers cannot access it until 3rd ideal. However, in the current era they can now reappear, defying Honor's limits. Surge: Division (x2) The Surge of Division is used to cause objects to burn or decay. The Rockburners can use Division with an incredible precision, naturalness, and ease unmatched by Skybreakers or Dustbringers. They are capable even of selectively destroying individual axi within a mixture, solution, or compound, such as purifying sea water by destroying the salt ions, or turning water into oxygen gas by destroying the hydrogen atoms. Rockburners can also center Division on themselves, exempting their own body, clothes, and equipment. This effect makes them unmatched in battle. An entropy field extending from them makes arrows break apart, swords soften and bend or break, etc; if they grapple with an opponent, their enemy's armor straps may break, their boots unfasten, etc. Unlike the direct use of Division, this ambient entropy field does not affect living beings. It also cannot affect Invested objects like Shardblades or fabrials. Resonance: Rockburners have increased Fortune, which manifests primarily as keen instincts in battle. True Spren: Destructionspren These weird truespren appear as wisps of black smoke in the Physical Realm, or vaguely humanoid clouds of smoke with blazing flames for eyes and mouth in the Cognitive. They may not be true natives of Shadesmar. Platespren: Decayspren Ideals: Historic Rockburners did not use the current Ideal system, but the theme of their bond was destruction. Current Rockburners, who are more integrated into the Radiant system proper, focus on destruction of only what is harmful or obsolete. None have yet reached the Fourth Ideal. First Ideal: standard Second Ideal: I will destroy what holds us back Third Ideal: No other bond will prevent me from ending that which must end Mistborn Spoilers: Other Notes: Rockburner Shardblades have a trace of black mist/smoke when coalescing into Physical form. Mistborn Spoilers:

I wonder if the Thunderclast recognized that Renarin was Enlightened and thought that meant Sja-anat was fighting on the other side... but Odium still doesn't know that a year later, so probably not.

No one really (permanently) lives that close to the North Pole (most of the very high Arctic is ocean anyway). The inhabited parts of the high Arctic are generally coastal ones, where the resources of the sea are available. Large parts of the Arctic - eg the interior of Greenland - are not inhabited, and other large areas are technically inhabited but the population is tiny. Scandinavia (and Murmansk, the largest Arctic city) benefit from warm ocean currents and so are less lethal. Without satellite imagery or aircraft overflights, it would be very easy to miss large things in a vast, mostly unpopulated area. The Unclaimed area marked on the map of Roshar is larger than Australia, nearly as large as the US. The fact that it remains unclaimed makes me think that it is probably less hospitable than those parts of the Arctic that are seriously inhabited. Also, Alethkar is not well equipped to expand (being involved in internal wars until very recently), and certainly don't have the organization needed to establish big mines in or transport huge numbers of prisoners to unpopulated lands distant from home like the Soviet Union did in our world's Arctic Russia, but they're very warlike and would likely prevent any other nation from trying. They're probably a buffer. Also, the existence of Soulcasters and Roshar's weird geology probably means that mining is less profitable, which is one big reason that economic activity does happen in our Arctic. The Listeners are native to Roshar, humans aren't. They're adapted to it. (Also, they mature much faster than humans, a listener population can demographically survive when a human one couldn't.) Akinah is accessible by sea. That makes a huge difference in pre-aircraft times. The European colonial powers explored Earth's coasts quite well long before they had any idea what was in the interior of the Amazon or New Guinea or Antarctica (which were all 20th century). I don't think anything supernatural is required. I think it's economic, and a result of the extreme severity of highstorms in Far Eastern Roshar. Alethkar, I think, needs Soulcasters to keep the level of logistics we see in the War of Reckoning. I think they'd be pretty limited without them. The population density of Alethkar is probably surprisingly low even with Soulcasters, IMO.

I'm actually baffled by the Renarin thunderclast healing thing. I thought Regrowth was supposed to be weaker than default Radiant healing, the point is that it applies to others. But Renarin's healing seems way better than Shallan's 3rd Ideal healing (the crossbow bolt through the head is a significant impairment for her). Kaladin does heal really fast from a cut to the spine early in RoW, but he's almost 4th ideal then. So I dont know if Renarin is somehow stacking Regrowth on top of base Radiant healing, if the nature of Glys's corruption/Enlightenment makes healing work better somehow (like the bond is accessing Renarin's perfected self more efficiently, like the visions of Adolin/Moash?), if Renarin is also near 4th ideal (I kind of doubt it), or some combination.

Meltforgers (Division/Cohesion) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will reshape The Meltforgers are an Order of craftspeople primarily. They can also be inventors, social and political reformers, etc. Their approach to the world historically gave them a semi-friendly rivalry with the Dustbringers. Surges: Division and Cohesion Division is used to cause things to burn or decay. Cohesion is used to soften and shape solid matter. These Surges can be used in combination to forge metal with inhuman perfection (heating the metal with Division and shaping it with Cohesion). More destructively, they can be combined to create miniature volcanoes (shaping stone with Cohesion and adding great heat with Division). True Spren: Lavaspren Lavaspren are born from the dream of the world's molten heart. They represent artificial forging of metal and the natural reshaping of rocks (metamorphism), both in a literal and symbolic sense - the reshaping of a thing through heat and pressure. A lavaspren in the Physical Realm looks like a fist-sized, dripping ball of orange-red light. In Shadesmar they appear as humans made of lava. Platespren: Heatspren Ideals: The themes of Meltshaper Ideals are the reshaping of things, in contrast with the need for survival and continuity. The wording given is only an example. First: standard Second: I will reshape things to better them. Third: Through all my trials, I will reforge myself. Fourth: I will remember that not everything and everyone can survive the heat of the forge. Fifth: I reforge the world through remaking myself. Other Notes: When Meltforger Shardblades coalesce, they feel warm instead of cold.

There do seem to be a high number of Metalborn criminals, but that might have more to do with the Set's influence than anything else - which seems strong among the upper class in TLM. I was including Set people as criminals, even if they're not publicly wanted. Anyway, I said criminals or adventurers or otherwise not available for hire. Adventurers being people like Allomancer Jak. Not available for hire could include people keeping their powers secret (like Marasi did before AoL) or those with other obligations (family, school, whatever). Otherwise ... I don't think it's as bad as you suggest, but you do have a point. There are mentions that suggest these things exist, but they "reasonably" should be seen more. I do think that's somewhat a feature of Era 2's more pulp-inspired style & narrower focus, but it can totally be a verisimilitude break as well.

Yeah, and different powers are good in different areas, and some we don't really know. Double Chromium could arguably be one of the most powerful out there, but we don't really know what compounded Fortune would do. If Connection synergizes well with emotional Allomancy, A-Brass or Zinc/F-Duralumin might be up there. I think the most powerful well-understood Twinborn combos are double gold, double steel, A-pewter/F-gold, A-pewter/F-steel, and A-steel/F-gold.

It would be so cool if we actually got to see this. Hopefully with someone competent and used to Surges, Amaram's use of all Ten (or nine?) Surges was kind of underwhelming.

Orbital rockets are after nukes, but liquid fuel rockets were being developed first - by the early 20s. What we see in TLM seems like early 30s level to me - quite aware that long range rockets, even space ones, are possible but not able to make them work. But the RL history of rockets around that time was kind of starved by limited funding. Simple solid fuel rockets (gunpowder-based) had been known for ages, as long as guns, maybe even somewhat longer. They were used against the US in the war of 1812 (the "rockets' red glare"). But real improvement of rockets is basically a 20th century thing, and liquid fueled rockets were invented in the early 20s by Goddard in the US; there were a bunch of private groups working on them in the 20s and early 30s in the US and Europe. Rocket cars and stuff were built. But these were largely really poorly funded - Goddard was kind of considered a maverick, the group that became JPL was originally essentially an university club, the German VfR was an amateur club, etc. The British Interplanetary Society was founded then too. This all got militarized in the run-up to / beginning of WWII, and that's where JATO units and the V2 rocket came from. (The American space program had a lot of V2 heritage, through Operation Paperclip - captured/surrendered German scientists taken to the US).

Because the Reverse Lashing would affect other objects - pebbles/dirt on the ground or whatever- even if the Stormlight of the Lashing itself didn't have an atium shadow (I don't know whether it would or not). With the expanded mind/intuitive reactions of Atium, seeing the pebbles/soil move would probably be enough. Yeah, what Vin did isn't power based, sure. How could they pick off Seers one at a time? Without the encircling & sticking, they can't hit them. Seers don't need to protect each other - they have "eyes in the back of their heads" and perfect reactions as well as future sight.

Hearthfounders (Adhesion/Transportation) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will establish The Hearthfounders are an Order of community builders - not necessarily major leaders, though some could be; more often those who build up everyday life, strengthen everyday communities on the small scale. In societies with a formalized educational system, they are most often teacher. Pioneers, founders of business ventures, lawyers and legal scholars/theorists, and philosophers focusing on social and poliical life are also found among this Order. Historically they were rivals to the Willshapers in many ways. While both have a focus on building civilization, the Willshaper focus is more on individual freedom, while the Hearthfounder focus is on structure and community. Surges: Adhesion and Transportation Adhesion is used to bind objects (or living things!) together with the Full Lashing. Transportation is used to look into the Cognitive Realm or fully transfer between Realms. The combined effect of their Surges is the so-called "Hearth Lashing", which binds Transportation to an object, creating a kind of beacon in Shadesmar. Spren and travelers in the Cognitive Realm can see this "Hearth" from miles away, and by touching its bead, transit to the Physical Realm is vastly easier. Resonance: Hearthfounders can see spren invisible to most. Historically, they rarely spoke of this, not wishing to be seen as claiming the Elsecallers' special role of intermediaries with spren. True Spren: Volitionspren Volitionspren are paradoxical spren born from two Surges in contrast. They represent, therefore, the strength of will and identity against an ever-shifting world. Their motto might be "You cannot step twice into the same river - but regardless, I remain myself, and my purpose is unaltered". A volitionspren in the Physical Realm can be mistaken for a concentrationspren, especially when the Nahel bond is weak and new, much like honorspren and windspren. In Shadesmar they appear as near-transparent humanoid figures made of rippling glass. Most have a singer-like body shape, with hints of carapace; these spren have changed less with the millennia of human influence than most other truespren. Platespren: Concentrationspren Ideals: The themes of Hearthfounder Ideals are stability/establishment and flexibility. First: standard Second: "I will establish. I will build, rather than tear down." ["I will establish" is the base form of this Ideal, the rest may vary - e.g. "I will build up that which is failing"] Third: "Wherever I go, I will remain myself, and bring stability with me" [again, the second part may vary - could also be "Wherever I go, I will remain myself, and confirm those who are wavering"] Fourth: "Whatever I establish, I will recognize that others must wander." [precise wording varies - basically recognizing that too strict a structure can be harmful] Fifth: [This one is more personalized than the others, but the core concept is being a guidepost for others who wander. Example:] "I will be a lighthouse by which all may set their path". Other Notes: Hearthfounders of the 4th Ideal and higher can call their Shardplate spren to serve as sentinels against corrupted spren over an area, such as a small farm or large castle.

Thank you, but yeah, that's exactly my problem! The Hearthfounders will have a full set of Ideals, I promise.

My guess is that early pre-Radiant Order Nahel Bond Surgebinders (in Nohadon's era for example) were pretty different from the current ones. I don't think they were just "Radiants without formal organization". They probably didn't have Plate (which doesn't really feel that natural to the Nahel bond) but might have had weirder Surge effects. The idea that futuresight was prevented by Honor's limits on Surgebinding is pretty good - it would explain the "I foresaw this" emerald in the gem archive, since Honor's limitations were fading in that era, even before he died (Melishi could see Connections directly).

I'm actually finding the Ideals the hardest part of this, since my theory on how Radiant Ideals work (excepting the Lightweavers because they are just weird) is hard to apply outside the established table. What I'm calling the "Theme/Core Ideal" is the short form of the 2nd Ideal given on the Ten Orders page (https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/) - "I will protect" for Windrunners, "I will remember" for Edgedancers, "I will unite" for Bondsmiths. I think they're based on the Divine Attributes as follows: 1st Ideal is same for everyone 2nd Ideal is based on the first Divine Attribute and is an expanded form of the Core Ideal 3rd Ideal is based on the first Divine Attribute, embracing it fully and moving past personal limitations holding you back from it 4th Ideal is about shifting from the first to the second Divine Attribute, qualifying the first Attribute in light of the second (Skybreakers move towards Confidence by their crusade, having to operate outside their structure; Windrunners acknowledge they can't Protect everyone in preparation for taking up larger scale Leading roles). 5th Ideal is about expressing the first through the second, or completely combining the two -- Skybreakers "become the law", having Confidence to enact Justice

OK, this is a super weird one, but the concept just seemed fitting... Lifewright (Adhesion/Progression) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will enliven. The Lifewright was an unique type of Surgebinder or Radiant - now extinct, and not properly a Radiant Order strictly speaking as none existed by the time the Orders were properly established. The unique Lifewright spren, Re-Shephir, was transformed into an Unmade by Odium one Desolation after Nohadon's time. The principle of the Lifewright is liveliness, excitement, wonder, and inspiration. They could be teachers, political leaders, artists, poets, or many other things - but the core of their approach to life and the world is inspiring others to see the world as a wondrous place. Surges: Adhesion and Progression Lifewrights can use Adhesion to make the Full Lashing, and Progression for both Growth (speeding the growth of plants) and Regrowth (healing). This powerful set of Surges includes the Truest Surges of both Honor and Cultivation. The combined Surges allow manipulation of Intent and Identity, as a Bondsmith manipulates Connection. Light Transfer: The Lifewright transfers Light via manipulating Identity keying, either passing their own Light to another Surgebinder (by touch or breath, up to a few paces away) or pulling Light from another. This ability also allows ending lingering effects of other Surgebindings, such as absorbing another's Lashing or Lightweaving. The Lifewright can then use the Stormlight themselves. Lifewright can draw Voidlight from a Regal or Fused -- or even sap Investiture from other worlds' Invested Arts -- but cannot use it themselves. This was the only available combined effect, in a time when Surgebinding was limited by Honor. A hypothetical current, Unchained Lifewright could use these abilities to far greater effect - terrifying and wondrous powers trespassing on the territory of other magic systems and even the Shards themselves. Enlivening: The basic effect of this is a Warbreaker spoiler. Beyond even that, such an individual could "cultivate" spren, increasing their Investiture -- even creating newborn truespren from nonsapient spren, or raising a truespren to something like an Oathgate spren (though the amunt of Light this would consume would be truly incredible, straining the limits of even an Unchained Bondsmith's Perpendicularity). Potentially, they could create new spren from sufficient free Investiture. Spren: Re-Shephir (before she was Unmade) Platespren: Awespren (in theory); none (historically - in that era, proto-Radiants did not yet have Shardplate). Ideals: The Lifewrights existed in an era before the current formalized structure of Oaths. Their Ideals focused, however, on inspiring others, appreciating wonder, and making the world a better and more wondrous place.

Hm. I wonder if there's actually about twice as many possibilities (excluding doubled identical Surges). If we're breaking the fixed order of Surge pairs, perhaps it matters which is which. A/B might not be the same as B/A; Cohesion/Transportation might not be the same as a Willshaper (perhaps it'd be the Order with riverspren plate, representing fluidity = Cohesion and travel/mobility = Transportation). I'd also like to "stake a claim" to Adhesion/Transportation (Order: Hearthfounders, core Ideal: I will establish) and Adhesion/Progression (Order: Lifewright, core Ideal: I will enliven) so that I can write them up properly.

Yeah, I'd agree Vin is equally world-class with Kaladin (though at a different skill set). I don't think that trick would work for the vast majority of people, and as you say it's still a 50/50 shot even if everything goes perfectly. It's probably significant that Elend, who presumably knew of the trick (surely Vin told him at some point), doesn't even consider fighting Yomen when he realizes he's an Atium Misting - despite Elend's Lerasium Mistborn abilities. Given what we've seen about Connection things in Stormlight even when there's no overt "magic system" happening, I wouldn't be surprised if Vin had an extra edge somehow - being shaped from birth by both Shards might have given her more Connection or Fortune or something.

Yeah. I think the problem Sazed has now is a combination of three things: 1) Ruin is stronger than Preservation; 2) Sazed is trying to prefer Preservation over Ruin, from both the TLM AA and his own wording - he's seeking a sword who can destroy in order to protect. Preservation is the goal, Ruin only a tool. 3) He's trying to maintain the balance by inaction. But inaction is actually not neutral, it's more Preservation. I think he was fine at the beginning because his remaking the world was genuinely using the two powers in Harmony - he did satisfy both Intents. He saved the world, or at least the North (Preservation) but caused radical change, and almost doomed the South (Ruin). Sure, Sazed the Vessel didn't intend to wreck the South, but the Intent of Ruin was satisfied regardless. I wouldn't be surprised if his reaction to finding out what happened is part of what set him on his inaction path. Possibly also because the atium Investiture hadn't recycled yet (300 years).

I don't think the rate of fire is really the key thing here, it's more how easily it can be slewed side to side, up and down etc. If it is physically possible to be out of the line of fire - given perfect knowledge and precisely accurate movements - a Seer will be. I am unconvinced that powers that aren't visible in the Physical would work. They might, but I don't think we can be confident of that given that Kelsier says in the SH version of the Elend and Seers vs koloss battle that the Seers are "transcending the Physical Realm". It looks like just seeing future shadows of objects/people, but it's really more than that - atium burners can react even if they don't consciously see the shadow. I think Reverse Lashing would show something. It's easier to see them missing the duralumin Soothing thing, because that's really totally non-Physical - and we know it could possibly work against atium by WoB - but it could also work because the atium burner couldn't do anything to avoid it. Vin was using future knowledge though... just not through a power of her own. She saw a cue from Zane and was able to benefit from his future knowledge. It's possible but I think that's kind of one in a million (Vin's intuition for Allomancy stuff is truly exceptional - maybe unique due to her special Connection to Preservation - and also Zane was kind of grandstanding there. If he'd gone to kill Vin quickly and efficiently I don't think she'd have had time to work it out. Maybe it could be a learnable technique, but it'd hardly be fair to assume our Squires had atium burning sparring partners to practice it on - by its nature it could only be tried against someone with atium or equivalent.) Ok, I'm lost on the last part. Doesn't that circle math imply that the Seers are standing very close together? I think that's exactly the wrong thing for them to do, especially against more-mobile opponents. Seers don't need formations to defend one another like historical close-combat warriors on Earth, since they have "eyes in the back of their head" and perfect dodging. I don't think herding people with Atium-inspired dodging is practical (it's not necessarily impossible with Windrunners' superior mobility, but I think it'd take more skill than squires are likely to have, especially since Gravitation flight isn't very optimal for herding people on the ground. 50 Steel Compounders with the ability to use Full Lashings could do it, sure.)

I don't think either combination of Shards we've seen is fully unifying them. Harmony was closer than the Dor, but he's having trouble now. But even the possibility of that means the Shards weren't really fully combined/unified. Yes, they were combined in the sense that if Sazed died one combined-Shard, not separate Preservation and Ruin, would be left behind. But I think it's more like... soldering the two pieces together rather than fully reforging them. They are genuinely connected, but the connection is weaker than the original material, and there's a stress point where it can break. I think the Shattering changed the nature of Investiture so that Shards are more stable individually.