cometaryorbit

Rosharans use the term "spren" for both, yeah. Spren in the proper cosmere-aware sense are Splinters, though, and the beads of objects aren't that kind of spren - they're just Cognitive aspects. But I do think the Stormfather/Rider of Storms existed in a not fully sapient form before the Shattering, because he's just so key to how the highstorm works... but was probably so different that it's arguable whether that was the same entity as the current Stormfather. The Adonalsium-era spren apparently mostly became "of" Cultivation after the Shattering, presumably because they're tied to nature and the growth of life on Roshar (in gemhearts, etc). It's not clear (at least to me) whether the Investiture distributed by the highstorm was "of" Honor before Honor arrived on the planet, though. Honor Investing the planet might have replaced the Investiture already there.

Completely fair. I think we may have taken the main point of this argument as far as we can go without further evidence. I do have two points on smaller details, though... I wouldn't be surprised if Singer civilization was stone based... but does Roshar's bizarre, crem-based geology actually provide decent metal ore deposits? I thought much of their metal was Soulcast. I'm sure modern Rosharans can find at least some deposits (maybe they use something like bog iron?) but I am not at all sure it would be an easy, quick adaptation. Unless Shinovar has more Earthlike geology? I don't know how deep the "terraforming" goes. Is it basically just the ecosystem/soil level or is the whole deep geology different? That's not quite what I meant. I think RoW implies that the ancient Dawnsinger Stoneshaping was lost when they turned to Odium, somehow? Anyway, unless Stoneshaping was the only Surge they could access (which is admittedly possible if the singer plant-growing trick is proto-fabrial science not proto-Surgebinding) the ability to use Surges on that kind of scale would be absurdly powerful.

I was thinking Shalash is questionable because she was born literally right around the transfer (like, within the length of a pregnancy of the event) whereas Taln might be like 3-5 years earlier. Not a large time gap but enough to make it unambiguous. I think the Oathpact did make them immortal, in the sense of unkillable/surviving death/reincarnating. I think that is what Shalash is referring to there. Slowed or stopped aging beforehand is also possible, and compatible with that -- and wouldn't be terribly relevant to mention there, in a conversation about the Oathpact, especially as in practice they became Cog Shadows before they outlived a normal human lifespan anyway. It wouldn't have had to be true agelessness either - they could have been simply slower aging (like, apparently, many worldhoppers have, or [Warbreaker spoilers] And yeah, I don't doubt that Honorblades are tied to the Oathpact. They absolutely are. I just think that came later than their original creation (ie the Honorblades were heavily involved in building the Oathpact, and were built into it). This is entirely possible, but it doesn't feel right to me. I doubt personally that a civilization that could build the Dawncities would have been that helpless. It wouldn't have taken a continentwide union; one city state should have been powerful enough. Even if they were initially totally unprepared, they'd have learned fast. I see no reason to think they're less adaptable than humans (probably more, actually, since the forms give them practice with changing mindsets). They could have smashed the humans with their existing powers, even after an initial defeat, without need to turn to Odium -- if their existing powers were in fact still available. I think they weren't. (Similarly the bit about "forbidden" powers of Surges in the Eila Stele. I think that implies they were known before and had been forbidden -- Honor's limiting of Surgebinding? One doesn't forbid something that's never even been a possibility.) Especially as I don't see why we'd expect the humans from Ashyn to be a highly organized fighting machine; they'd be an utterly shattered culture, having lost their entire world, and probably still reeling from whatever led to the destruction, and likely bits of different nations/city-states/whatever Ashyn had thrown together. (Though it's possible only one Ashynite nation escaped, the one Jezrien was king of, to be fair. In that case, though, I'd expect him to have maintained control & prevented a breaking of the original deal so early.) Also, something had to wipe out the ability to build Dawncities. It feels more Occam's Razor to relate this to the spren/singer betrayal and Honor limiting Surges events that we know were also happening. (Though, again, to be fair, this could have been a Dawnshard thing.) It's possible. But I feel like we don't actually have strong enough evidence for an initial invasion to make it likely. If Raboniel or Leshwi in RoW had mentioned a physical invasion, I'd be totally on the same page with you here. Honor when Tanavast was fully coherent wasn't mindlessly upholding oaths, but he still couldn't have totally ignored his Intent in a large-scale Shardic action (handing out Honorblades / making them from Splinters of himself), imo. I agree that the Singers had already - at least largely - turned to Odium by then and that this was Honor's motivation. But my argument is that if we accept this, there's actually no evidence that a human physical invasion of lands (as opposed to the spren/singer betrayal, Honor/Odium swap stuff) was actually the event that set off the conflict. The characters in OB conclude that, but that's I think because of their concerns at the moment. The Eila Stele itself doesn't seem to be describing a primarily physical invasion - it seems more focused on spren betrayal/Odium stuff. IMO it's a very skillful writing trick - Dalinar's conclusion makes perfect sense from and in his POV.

Truthwatcher. By a lot. Which makes a lot of sense, given my personality and interests. I actually did it twice, with slightly different answers where neither word fit me that well, and got massively Truthwatcher-biased results both times... 86% and 89%. Edgedancer second kind of surprises me though. While they have a super awesome power set, and I like their concept (it's hard not to like Loving/Healing and helping the less fortunate) I'm not nearly socially aware enough to function as an Edgedancer, and also probably too much of a structured kind of person. Frankly none except Truthwatcher fit me at all well... Skybreaker or Bondsmith could fit the structure side, but I'm not violent enough for Skybreakers and dislike leadership roles, so no Bondsmith.

Mindswayers (Abrasion/Cohesion) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will persuade This Order was suppressed due to the disturbing nature of its power, which was considered Voidish by many (though it truly is not). This is because it is so similar to the effect of the Unmade Ashertmarn. In reality, though -- unknown even to the Bondsmiths -- this connection is because Ashertmarn was once a spren of this Order (a revelryspren). Shortly after Aharietiam, a conflict in the Cognitive Realm forced the revelryspren to cease bonding humans. Thus, for over 2000 years there were no Mindswayers, and none of the existing dead Shardblades and Plate were left behind by Mindswayers. Surges: Abrasion and Cohesion Abrasion can be used to reduce friction (of an object, another person, or oneself) to zero. Mindswayers can also use Cognitive Abrasion, which slicks the mind, so thoughts and impulses flow easily. Cohesion can be used to soften and reshape solid objects. Mindswayers lack the Connection and history aspects of Stoneshaping with Cohesion that Willshapers are capable of, but they can use the Cognitive reflection of this Surge instead - this softens barriers and inhibitions. The combined effect of both Cognitive forms of Surge is similar to that of the Unmade Ashertmarn, increased impulsiveness and lowered inhibitions. Truespren: Revelryspren Platespren: Alespren Mistborn Spoilers:

30 years is barely workable yeah. But it takes enough stretches on both sides that we should consider the other possibility IMO. Nah, that's really not a problem for what I'm suggesting - not necessarily. Though I can see why you think so, because I was leaving it open for a very long timeline, so maybe being a bit inconsistent -- because my main point was that the "obivous" implied timeline (20-30 years between arrival and Oathpact) doesn't seem to work, rather than arguing for a specific other option. [Although, it's not just a pure timeline thing - this kind of model where the Honorblades predate the "cage forged of spirits" Oathpact explains why the Blades weren't irrelevant and the greater power of them that the Stormfather hints at.] But while Raboniel's family is a problem for the "obvious" timeline (20-30 years between arrival and Oathpact) it also seems to rule out the very long timeline (>100 years between arrival and Oathpact). I actually think adding about 20-25 years to the "obvious" timeline works better with the Taln issue, Herald ages, and Raboniel family timeline. It works fine if Taln is physically 40s and he is chronologically just a few years older than Shalash ... ie about 20 years passed between the initial Investment/stopped aging and the Oathpact. That makes the Raboniel's family 3-singer-generations timeline work a lot better (it's 45-50 years not 20-30). ie something like Year 0 - cataclysm /transfer from Ashyn to Roshar. Shalash born right around here, Taln is only a few years old. Jezrien is a young man; only Ishar is mature and heavily involved in these events (though since Jezrien was a king, it's likely he inherited the throne around here due to the cataclysm). Raboniel's grandmother is a fairly young adult. (Surges limited by Honor? Humans lose access to Ashynite magic?) Years 1-25 - Spren start being drawn to humans more and more, and Odium starts sowing discord as singers start having trouble with rarer forms/abilities/etc. Year 5 - Raboniel's mother born Year 20 - Raboniel born Year 25 - spren/singer betrayal event. (Surges limited by Honor?) Honorblades handed out, 10 people (nine known Heralds excluding Taln + someone else) become highly Invested, likely Avatars of Honor, and essentially stop aging. (Humans perhaps lose access to Ashynite magic, replaced by Honorblades?) Year 25-~40 - Tensions escalate. Singers begin to turn toward Odium. Eila Stele written. Year 35 - Essu born Year 40-45 - outright war breaks out. Singer turn to Odium accelerates. The previous holder of the Stoneward Honorblade is killed; Taln takes it up. All current Heralds are now non-aging, and frozen at the ages they still look. Year 45 - Fused elevated from those killed by war. Essu is 10 and newly adult by singer timelines, Raboniel is 25. Forms of Power granted by voidspren. Years 45-55 - Fused reincarnate, war gets much worse for humans due to both immortal Fused champions and improved singer morale. Nearly all singers turn to Odium, and become more and more dependent on Fused and voidspren. Humans despair. Year 50 - Oathpact established. Heralds become Cognitive Shadows, Fused and voidspren trapped on Braize. Singer morale collapses, they suffer a crushing defeat, humans conquer large areas on the other side of the Shinovar mountains (though still a small proportion of the entire continent) Years 50 - ?400 or something - humans slowly expand at the expense of singers, learning to live in more and more strong-highstorm regions as they press eastward. Fused are on Braize, eventually figure out that torturing Heralds is a possibility. Next 2,000+ years - cycle of repeating Desolations Difference is that Spain in the 1492-1521 period was a new union of kingdoms, a rising power coming out of victory in a long period of wars, with an intact homeland and the ability to project power into the Americas at zero risk to the homeland (as well as a dramatic tech advantage + the crushing advantage of disease) . They weren't refugees with almost nothing who had lost their homeland. See, here's the problem I have. If it was like that -- the humans had nothing, the Dawnsingers had a lot -- why didn't the Dawnsingers just utterly crush the humans in the initial conflict? The Dawncities suggest that the Dawnsingers were powerful civilizations with Invested abilities of their own, not scattered super-low-density extended-family groups (who wouldn't have had a use for large stone cities). Sure, humans were more warlike (supposedly - maybe singers didn't know warform until the conflict started?) but that wouldn't make up the difference. Not even close. I think the spren/singer betrayal thing, possibly combined with Honor's limiting of Surges, had greatly limited their ability to use what they previously had before open war started. Thus why they turned fully to Odium, rather than simply crushing the humans trivially and leaving their way of life unchanged. The other key point for me is ... Honor wouldn't have backed humans if they started the war by breaking the agreement. So I think that humans had at least largely moved to Honor/Cultivation's side, and the singers had at least largely turned to Odium, before open war broke out. Yes, I totally agree with that. (Though I also think that Dalinar as of the end of OB probably thinks it was all one event.)

Cohesion definitely can't affect living/Invested stuff, but Tension is less clear. I think that WoB is talking about Cohesion. Especially as that's a 2018 WoB so Brandon was probably thinking about RoW being the book that would show Cohesion both for Venli and the Fused. So Tension on self might be the Stonesinew effect. This would also fit because we haven't seen the Tension Fused yet, so they might be a more powerful brand being held back for book 5. They might be Shardplate equivalents.

Yeah, the object has to already be moving for some reason other than F-Iron. But once it is, the analogy to gravity capturing an object in initially linear motion (say, a rocket firing horizontally above the atmosphere) into an orbit works perfectly. Both gravity and an Ironpull are forces that pull toward the center of the relevant object (planet/Lurcher). If the Lurcher is on Scadrial's surface rather than in open space far from planets, though, the planet's own gravity will make this tricky enough that it requires both very precise & unusual initial conditions + exceptional (possibly savant level) skill. Vin was able to use her own motion to get an effect sort of like this because she had both Steel and Iron, but even then, it took exceptional ability.

Mixed gray & black in one's 30s isn't that unusual. I agree we don't have a description of Ash's age, but clearly adult. My whole theory is that the Heralds stopped aging before the war, probably due to Honorblades being given to them/becoming avatars of Honor as part of the constraining of Surgebinding/ Honor-Odium swap / spren-singer betrayal events. I agree that they were Invested enough to stop aging within 20 - 30 years of the transfer to Roshar. (Or, at least, some were; the Jezrien vs Shalash age thing, and Taln not being intended to be a Herald, could mean not all ten current Heralds were Invested at once.) I just disagree that their initially becoming Invested was either the Oathpact or necessarily related to the human conquest of Roshar. But that's exactly the key difference - Cortez went to conquer from the beginning. They didn't "turn from settling to conquest" at all - conquest was Plan A. That's not a case of people starting out as hapless refugees and then becoming conquerors within a generation. People starting from basically nothing aren't generally in a position to do that. Cortez also benefited from smallpox etc devastating the Aztec Empire within that two year span -- that kind of thing doesn't really happen on a high-Investiture planet like Roshar. Also, the Aztec Empire was tiny by Rosharan standards.

Yeah, ok, I can see that. I think we're basically on the same page here then. Things were going wrong well before the full scale war/continental conquest. We don't know whether Shalash was born on Roshar or Ashyn, but Brandon was leaning toward Ashyn at the time of the WoB on it. That makes the timeline issue significantly more acute. Add the additional years of war... Shalash isn't physically 40-45, probably not even 35. The other weirdness with 'the Heralds look the age they were when they became Heralds' is that Jezrien and Shalash don't look to have a sufficient difference in age to be father and daughter. Even if Shalash is physical-20, Jezrien is 30ish maybe early 30s. Again, this could be reconciled ... - Jezrien could have been mid-late 30s and just not showing it, and had Shalash really young; - or it could really only have been a 10 year gap but she was his adoptive daughter rather than biological (say, Jezrien at 20 adopted Shalash as say a 10-year-old orphan)... ...but it's another straw on the pile of oddities with Herald ages/timelines. See, given the timeline oddities, and especially if you agree that Odium was manipulating both sides in the time period the Eila Stele was written, I don't see why you're confident that it started that soon. Oh, and I think there's also ambiguity about what "the First Desolation" is. The Stormfather in OB 38 says "the start of Desolations" was with the Fused - so he's not including the conflict in which the Fused originally died as a Desolation. -- Another oddity is the idea that Taln wasn't supposed to be a Herald. That'd be a somewhat odd thing to say if they were a simultaneously created set of ten. But if the Honorblades being given out was a separate event to the Heralds becoming Cognitive Shadows, Taln might not have been the original bearer of his Honorblade (the original bearer died pre-Oathpact and so didn't return, and needed to be replaced, for example). -- Raboniel timeline evidence added to the first post.

I'd say ... probably not technically 100% impossible, but would require very precise initial conditions + exceptional skill. An orbit is based on gravity pulling an initial perpendicular motion into a circle. You could use A-Iron to replace gravity - both are forces pulling directly toward the center of the planet/Allomancer ... but the object still needs the initial velocity. For example, an arrow flying by, but not directly at, the Lurcher could be Pulled into a circle around the Lurcher in the same way an object flying by a planet could be pulled by gravity into an orbit. However, this would take a pretty specific Pull strength, and precisely modifying Push/Pull strength is hard. Also, actual gravity is still going to be pulling the arrow down. So you'd only get a few "orbits" unless the arrow is at exactly the right height that the angle upward of the Pull to the Lurcher's center counteracts the downward force of gravity (which would probably be something bizarre like an arrow at calf level). It'd be easier, I think, if you had both Steel and Iron. Vin's horseshoe-flight trick is kind of similar to this. But Vin is also the only person ever who figured out that trick, in a thousand years of Mistborn, and Elend couldn't manage it even with Vin trying to teach it to him. Vin has exceptional intuition with Allomancy, probably due to her Connection to Preservation. To do it with Iron alone... I don't think it's technically impossible, especially for a savant-level Lurcher who can move the center of Pulling around their body, but it'd take both ridiculous skill and very precise initial conditions - to the point that it'll probably never happen in practice.

Mattermolders (Transformation/Cohesion) Order Theme/Core Ideal: I will perfect Mattermolders are the ultimate artisans and architects among the Radiants. They are also key to logistics, using Soulcasting to feed people cut off from supplies by war or disaster. They were one of the least militant Orders; even during the Desolations they were primarily focused on keeping civilians fed and sheltered during the destruction. Surges: Transformation and Cohesion Transformation can be used to Soulcast, changing an object from one material to another. Cohesion can be used to soften and reshape solid objects. Mattermolders lack the Connection and history aspects of Stoneshaping with Cohesion that Willshapers are capable of, but their control of physical change is more detailed. When in combination, these Surges give Mattermolders the ability to transform and reshape matter with incredible precision and control. They can Soulcast at the axial level and reshape bonds with Cohesion to fit, changing some components of an alloy, mixture, or even compound while leaving others unchanged - such as turning a pure metal into an alloy by Soulcasting a proportion of its atoms into another metal and subtly readjusting the crystal structure; turning water into deadly hydrogen sulfide gas by turning the oxygen atom to a sulfur atom; and so on. They can also create highly complex objects by Soulcasting out of air. Resonance: Mattermolders have a highly refined sense of touch, being inhumanly aware of subtle variations of texture and composition of objects. True Spren: Shifters (Clayspren) Unlike most truespren, shifters often don't appear humanoid in Shadesmar, though their "default" form is a humanoid that appears made of wet clay. They can take almost any shape, though they always retain the wet-clay appearance. In the Physical Realm, they appear as a number of drops of gray fluid beading on a surface or flowing along the ground. Shifters are the soul of remaking - shaping and transformation combined into one concept, change in form and matter. Platespren: Fermentationspren Ideals: Mattermolder Ideals are focused on perfecting the world, starting at the small scale. They are not civilization builders or government founders like the Willshapers or Bondsmiths, they focus on providing resources and tools to better everyday people's lives.

I just never came up with anything that seems really suitable. It's not something I ever really thought about, honestly. If I did have a profile picture it'd probably be one of the Stormlight-relevant gems, probably emerald since Truthwatcher is the order I'm closest to.

Another timeline point: Raboniel says (ch 76 RoW) that she wasn't around when humans arrived, but her grandmother told her about what it was like, in a way that implies her grandmother was around to see it. Essu, Raboniel's daughter, became a Fused, so given that apparently (according to Raboniel) all the Fused were "elevated" at once, and presumably Odium wouldn't have chosen a baby or young child, Essu was probably already adult or at least close at the time the Fused were created. So there were probably about 3 singer generations between human arrival and the elevation of the Fused. Singer generations are shorter than human ones, so that could be argued to be compatible, but it's a stretch. Singers are considered adult at 10, so if that's equivalent to human 18... human generation times in a pre-industrial society are probably something like 25 years, so maybe 13-15 for singers? 3 generations would still be something like 40-45 years ... and according to the Stormfather, the Oathpact was created because humans couldn't win a war where their enemies kept reincarnating, which means there was more war between the creation of the Fused and the beginning of the Oathpact. I don't think the youngest Herald is like 50. It's not completely definitive, because it's possible that Raboniel's mother was alive - maybe even adult and just somewhere else - at the time of human arrival, and that Essu was made a Fused before full adulthood. If Raboniel was born only a few years after the arrival (say 3 years), and Raboniel had Essu at say 12, and Essu was made a Fused at maybe 8, and only two years passed between the Fused being created and the Oathpact... then Shalash could be like 25 at the time of the Oathpact. But that seems like a stretch.

See, this is what I'm skeptical of (that the conflict actually started with human invasion). That's totally what we are meant to believe at this point*, but I think there's more going on there -- just like the way our understanding of the Recreance went from "the Knights all murdered their spren" after WoR to "they were afraid they'd destroy the world" after OB to "WE CHOSE" after RoW. I agree that the writer of the Eila Stele wasn't a follower of Odium, but I don't think all the singers switched over at once. I think this was written during the period of change-over, when some singers but not yet the majority had turned to Odium, and Odium was still playing both sides and not yet clearly backing one side as he later did when the Desolations were in full swing. This is probably after the betrayal occurred but before the betrayal turned to outright total war. The wording sounds like it's intended to warn other singers about the dangers of dealing with apparently peaceful humans - "Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor." This to me implies that while there was probably already some violence ("minds that lust for blood"), it hadn't yet become a full on war - the warning implies that the writer thought there was a real risk of other singers pitying/taking in humans, and listening to their apparent friendship ("tongues of sweetness"). That doesn't sound like the wording of the losing side of an interspecies total war of conquest or even extinction. It also sounds like the writer is primarily blaming the humans for causing a betrayal of "our gods - spren, stone, and wind" and for bringing Odium. Not for conquering them or driving them off their lands. I think the Eila Stele is likely pre-conquest (or at least large-scale conquest), written when most of Roshar was still singer lands. I think the betrayal mentioned has something to do with the Honor/Odium swap and spren/singer issue, not the invasion. The Eila Stele also talks about powers the singers were forbidden to touch, which implies they at least knew they existed (and maybe had been used before). *I think there's a red-herring writing trick here. The characters are really concerned with Dalinar's attempt to build a Coalition vs the Alethi history of conquest, so that's what's on their minds. So when they discover that the singers were the original inhabitants of Roshar, and see the reference to a betrayal, they immediately assume the betrayal was a conquest. But I don't think the text we're given really supports that.

This is rather odd. We see that Lemex's Breaths flicker (his BioChromatic aura is pulses of color-distortion) as he approaches death, but they're not weaker because of that - when Vivenna gets them, they don't flicker for her. So that seems to be a function of the person holding them, not something that goes with the Breath itself. But whatever Breath loses with age does seem to be something that transfers, since the Hallandren prefer to feed younger Breath to the Returned.

OK, yeah, that's a key distinction. I'm kind of thinking that some of the stuff Dawnsingers did, either their proto-Surgebinding or rarer forms or both, required cooperation from rarer spren - maybe the actual sapient spren/truespren that later formed Radiant bonds, maybe just types of lesser spren that are a lot rarer than the basic lifespren, painspren, gravitationspren, etc used for the basic forms. We know there were (and apparently are now post-Everstorm) a lot more "normal" (non form of power) singer forms than the five they knew as of WoR. (They might even have had forms directly based on the truespren?) And humans were more appealing to the spren and attracted them more, so there were less spren around the singers and they started to lose reliable access to some of those things. And that's how Odium started to sow conflict, offering voidspren and Forms of Power as replacements... There's also the question of when Honor restricted the use of the Surges. Was it when he Invested in Roshar in the first place, or was it post-Ashyn, as a response to what happened there, maybe as part of handing out the Honorblades? If it's post-Ashyn, that also might have messed up some of what the Dawnsingers were doing (the scale of the Dawncities is pretty impressive... though that might have been a Dawnshard thing rather than a Dawnsinger Stoneshaping thing). That could also turn the singers away from Honor.

Good point! I somehow got so focused on the Windrunner stuff (at least Kaladin's storm-shield trick) involving windspren and thus likely not being available with a Honorblade (since the Windspren are Plate-related) that I somehow dropped the Honorblade(s) completely from the Hemalurgy option. At least the Abrasion from Edgedancer/Dustbringer Honorblade would help. I'm not sure if the "basic" Adhesion effects from the Windrunner Honorblade - without the windspren-related tricks - would give you anything or if that's just Full Lashing 'magic glue'.

I think the "I will be there when I'm needed" from the Order quiz Ten Orders page needs to fit in somewhere though. For every order we know the 2nd Ideal from (except Lightweavers, who have individualized Truths), the Ten Order page "motto" for that Order is a short form of the 2nd Ideal. "I will stand when others fall", could be the 3rd, or the 2nd Ideal could be both - "I will stand when others fall. I will be there when I'm needed." - Dalinar's 3rd is two-part, so its possible.

See, I disagree. It's "before any of us understood Surges", not necessarily before they were used. There's a distinction between Surgebinding (the specific magic system) and the Surges (which are a lot broader). The spren are "living Surges". Stoneshaping is an use of the Surge of Cohesion - it's in the RoW Ars Arcanum. It has to be the result of a Surge. The singer plant growing method might be more like proto-fabrial science, but even if it is, that doesn't really rule out some involvement of the Surge of Progression. Fabrials might involve Surges, at least indirectly through the nature of the spren, though not Surgebinding. I'd argue that skyeel flight and chasmfiend lightening are the Surge of Gravitation. The Purelake magic fish probably involve Surges too. Etc. I agree the Dawnsingers didn't have "a specific spren bond", but Surges aren't limited to that. Even Surgebinding (the specific magic system we know) isn't - the Fused Surgebind without spren bonds, and the Honorblades aren't really spren either. I think the implication is that some Surge use existed on both Ashyn and Roshar before the Heralds got Honorblades, starting Surgebinding (the magic system we know) - and that was eventually copied by Radiant spren/Radiants and arguably the Fused. Even if you don't think e.g. skyeel flight is Surge based, the destruction of Ashyn, Dawnsinger Stoneshaping, the Dawncities and the Shattered Plains... I don't think either side understood the Surges as a set/system though. It kind of sounds like Ashyn was experimenting with powers they didn't understand, so it wasn't just the Dawnsingers who didn't understand them. -- I thought Tashikk, while clearly way more verdant than eastern Roshar, was still very alien and highstorm-adapted with trees that lay flat and such. I could easily be overstating it, though. I definitely don't understand how the highstorm weakening works. If it's still moving at over 300 mph, it's going to be incredibly devastating even if the cloud bands are breaking up and the rainfall has decreased. And I honestly don't see how a wooden wagon can protect people from the 390 mph winds of an eastern-Roshar highstorm. I've wondered about that scene with Kaladin in the slave wagon for years, and the best I can come up with is that the lower gravity (and the size of chulls, which are significantly larger than oxen) allows them to build it way sturdier than animal-drawn wagons in our world generally were. 390 mph is worse than any F5 tornado that ever existed on Earth, which peak about 300 mph. Even if the highstorm winds are more straight-line so less likely to pick up and drop the wagon... (I was really surprised to learn the 390 mph thing. The wagon scene had honestly convinced me, previously, that outside the highstorm/Everstorm collision in WoR normal highstorms were more like a category 1-2 hurricane. OTOH being left out in the highstorm is treated as a death sentence for Kaladin. So the wagon scene is really more the anomalous one. IDK. But it likely is a construction thing. I know the bridges take advantage of both lower Rosharan gravity and a very high strength to weight, low density local wood. Wagons might be the same.)

(Numbers added by me) [1] I'm arguing that conquering and plundering alien resources in a hostile alien landscape would be harder than farming and building. These aren't Germanic tribes raiding Rome or Mongolians invading China. The environment is overwhelmingly more alien. Weekly Cat 5+ hurricanes are a big deal; so are food / fiber plants that would just look like rocks to them and are grown by shining gems on them and singing to them, elephant-sized coral-bugs for livestock, etc. And with the mountains in the way, you can't just do brief raids between highstorms - it'd be a journey of weeks surely. [2] Hmm, ok, we have totally different mental images of how this worked. I certainly wouldn't have expected Singers providing the food - or even very much day-to-day contact at all between humans and Singers in the early years after the bargain was struck and Shinovar was terraformed/transported/whatever. There are formidable mountains between Shinovar and the rest of Roshar. (Surely there was some contact to make the bargain, but the mountains might have been created as part of the terraforming of Shinovar. Or the Shards might have mediated the bargain.) [3] Sure, pre-industrial farming was very hard. I'm just arguing that the geography and Rosharan weather and ecosystem are such that stealing from Singers would be even harder. (And, indeed, completely unworkable as a major source of resources. Small groups of 'frontiersmen' stealing gemhearts, even living there by banditry - totally possible once they learned how to take good enough shelter from highstorms & what was edible. Transporting meaningful amounts of food, wood, etc home across the mountains - no way, unless they were very advanced.) (I wouldn't compare to Late Middle Ages Europe though - that's a high latitude in a relatively harsh climate era. Shinovar is at a better latitude and Roshar is vastly less seasonal than Earth, certainly than Europe! I'd compare to southern coastal China / South or Southeast Asia, or Mesoamerica, which supported higher population densities even with limited technology.) [4] Surgebinding as Heralds and KR use it is post-Fused. There was Surgebinding of a sort before; not only the Ashynite magic but the Dawnsinger Stoneshaping and whatever made the Dawncities / Shattered Plains (per WoB too large scale for even a group of Radiants). Those ancient Rosharan Surges (not the Ashynite ones) could totally still have been spren-based. There's also the weird proto-fabrial-science stuff like the singing/shining Light from gems farming method.

My view (which largely agrees but partly disagrees) is that the framework of the Ideals - except for Lightweavers and maybe Elsecallers* - is based on the two Divine Attributes of the Order. 1st Ideal is same for all 2nd Ideal expresses the first Divine Attribute (Protecting for Windrunners, Just for Skybreakers, Loving for Edgedancers). It also seems to be an amplified form of the theme given to the Order on the Ten Orders quiz page - "I will protect" for Windrunners, "I will seek justice" for Skybreakers, "I will remember" for Edgedancers, "I will seek freedom" for Willshapers, "I will unite" for Bondsmiths**. 3rd Ideal intensifies or specifies the Divine Attribute/ 2nd Ideal (I will protect even those I hate, choosing a specific code of justice, etc) 4th Ideal qualifies or combines the first Divine Attribute with the second. Windrunners accept there are those they can't Protect in preparation for taking up a Leadership role, Skybreakers undergo a crusade to learn Confidence in their administration of Justice. The 5th Ideal, then, is probably the ideal combination of the Divine Attributes. Skybreakers become fully Confident in serving/becoming Justice. *The Ten Orders page says "They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals". Bondsmiths don't seem to fit this pattern either ... and it will be looser, since the Ten Orders page says "the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation" - but I think maybe they actually do, at least thematically. Their Divine Attributes are Pious/Guiding. We think of "pious" as meaning simply "religious". But the original root meaning is more like "dutiful" (eg 'filial piety'), implying duty in a society of reciprocal obligations - bonds! In that sense, I think "I will unite instead of divide" and "I will stand each time I fall" maybe do fit. **This would suggest that the Dustbringer Second is some version of "I will seek self-mastery", the Truthwatcher Second is some version of "I will seek truth", and the Stoneward Second is some version of "I will be there when I'm needed".

I'd be ok with redeeming Moash, if it's a real redemption - ie he actually admits that what he did was deeply wrong, changes his life, and does something radically different with his life from then on. But I don't think there is going to be room for that (either in page space or in-world time) in SA5.

The fourth possibility is what @alder24 said, that "Happened to your friend too" means just the dying part. It is a direct response to Kaladin being shocked that Zahel's saying he died. The fifth possibility is that it isn't a clear distinction. Brandon has said that "Cognitive Shadow" is an in-cosmere theory. There may be a blurry line between Cognitive Shadow and just healed, and Szeth's right on that line.

Everything you say is possible. If humans arrived with a very large population; could organize fairly quickly; and most immediately agreed on breaking the original deal, it could have happened that way. My complaint, though, is the idea that it would be easier to seek resources outside Shinovar than inside. That IMO would only be true if the population was so large that it couldn't be sustained in Shinovar at all. It'd be way easier to live in Shinovar at 100 people per square mile than in Tashikk at 5 people per square mile, IMO, in the first few generations. From what we see of Tashikk in Edgedancer, even though it's much farther west than the rest of the books, it's still strongly highstorm-influenced. And Shinovar is large, lies in a relatively warm latitude, and is described as well-watered and verdant. It should be able to support a very large population. -- I don't think it was all conquered in one generation - but I do think that's the intended implication, what Dalinar and most of the other characters as of the end of OB believe happened. - I tend to think the inciting event of the First Desolation was the hinted-at spren betraying singers/singers betraying spren thing, which along with the arrival of Odium led to the singers turning to Odium and/or voidspren. I think the human invasion/conquest came later and wasn't necessarily primarily land/resource motivated as Dalinar and co think.