Ciridae

Two quick questions. Do we know for certain that voidspren go to Braize after a Desolation ends? And what has kept singers from assuming Stormform and summoning the Everstorm in the past? The Everstorm is such a convenient way to circumvent the Oathpact and nothing that we know of prevented singers from bonding the right spren and calling it in the past. And yet we're told that it wasn't possible in the past, but old in design. I wonder about voidspren on Braize as well, because why would they go to Braize? Fused are killed and go there automatically, but what about regular spren? And if they're not on Braize, Ulims escape and Talns arrival on Roshar might not be connected. And what is Cultivation doing?

This may be a little long, sorry guys. I just finished rereading Shadows again and it bothers me to no end that Silver has this hidden cosmeric significance and we have no clue what it really is. Brandon has rafo'd most things about silver, especially if it's invested on Threnody. I have done a little digging and compiled some WoBs and some ideas, but essentially I want to start a discussion on what silver's role is. Let me start with What we currently know about Threnodite silver: 1. It hurts Shades. The exact effects are white sparks and driving the Shade back (when lightly touching it) and when stabbed, more sparks, a slight tugging on the knife (not unlike a Shardblade), and incapacitating the Shades. 2. It heals withering. Silver dust is used to undo the withering caused by being touched by a Shade. (Let me point out that withering is extremely similar to what Shardblade wounds look like, this is important later.) Also, ingesting silver dust seems to have a more immediate and complete healing effect. 3. It's used up both when touching a Shade and when healing witherings. Silence's knife is blackened in several spots after killing two Shades, while almost a whole pouch of silver dust is used up to heal a withered hand. Healing witherings seems to use up more silver than simply touching Shades. 4. It does not automatically cause harm to all Cognitive Shadows/ Entities. Kelsier is able to touch Nazh's silver knife without a problem. I don't know if threnodite silver is special because of Ambition's warping of the planet, but I think it's safe to assume that the silver knife in Secret History is from Threnody. So Theory #1 is that silver in the form of a solid weapon, like a knife, is harmful to cognitive entities. Shades can be killed with it and the fact that Nazh caries it around while traveling in Shadesmar (and then gives it to Kelsier as a means of helping him) indicates to me that it's especially useful in the CR. For Theory #2 here's a quick refresher on Shades: (Here's the quick rundown of how I think Shades came to be.) Clearly they are cognitive entities with a strong presence in the Physical realm. Much like a manifested Shardblade. Here's why the similarity between withering and Shardblade wounds is so important: if they work on the same principles (which I think is the simplest explanation for cognitive entities in the PR causing greying flesh and shriveled eyes in both cases), then that means that Shades damage the spiritual too. That would mean that threnodyte silver can heal or reverse spiritual damage. The problem with this is that we see it nowhere else in the Cosmere. Maybe it has to be threnodite silver. Maybe it only works on Threnodites. Maybe it only works on Threnody. But that's not very satisfying, is it? We're looking for a Cosmere-wide rule here, like red signifying co-opted or mixed investiture. This is where it gets very speculative. Unfounded and somewhat out-there Theory #3: Silvery, but not steel. Perhaps silver? The fact that Brandon gets so excited about this makes me think that the chain will have heavy plot implications. It's displayed in a weapons shop, in the CR, at a time and place where perhaps the biggest war involving cognitive entities has just kicked off. So in conclusion, silver does some weird stuff on Threnody, maybe involving healing the spiritual, and is maybe dangerous to cognitive entities, but not always. As you can see I'm a little stumped, but I hope I can start a bit of a discussion to see what all the smart heads around here can come up with. Thanks for reading!

The Stormfather says Odium won't risk splintering him because it would leave him open to a strike from Cultivation. I think that alone says a lot about what multishardic battle would look like. On another note, I don't think that Autonomy is splintering herself when she creates avatars. I think its more that, whenever she discovers a new body of investiture assosciated with her intent somewhere in the cosmere, instead of gulping that bit up and joining it to her main shardic pool of investiture under her direct control, she gives it the ability to form a consciousness, and imbues it with certain character traits (like a dislike of Hoid for example). The investiture is still autonomy, part of the larger Shard as it was before it was discovered by Bavadin, but now she is aware of it and it is autonomous to think and act. That is why Patji is Patji, but Brandon still refers to them as a Shard of Adonalsium. I imagine it a bit like realizing that you have a hand, calling that hand Bob, telling that hand that it likes ice cream and then letting that hand do whatever it wants.

The thing about lightweavers probably wasn't that they necessarily had to dig up repressed memories of traumatic experiences like Shallan. Rather I think that for a lightweaver to progress they have to come to a greater understanding of themselves. Shallan doesn't just have to say the truth she has to accept it, work through it and admit to herself that that is a part of who she is. Lopen (and maybe even Sadeas' men at the end of OB) show us that the soul does not necessarily need to be cracked, but open, to be able to bond to a Spren. I think children as a rule are more open to this kind of bond. I don't think that Tien or Shallan had cracked souls. Add to this that while children grow up they automatically learn to understand themselves better, coming to realize truths about themselves easily and naturally, while an adult may be more set in their ways and ideas about themselves and the world. It may be that it's just convenient for Cryptic to bond children. In short, I don't think either young Shallan or Tien had anything as dramatic as Shallan repressed traumatic experiences, but were just growing up and learning a lot about themselves. What sets these children apart from others to make cryptics chose them, I can only guess. Maybe it's an affinity for creating things, maybe it has to do with the role of lightweavers among the Radiants to give "spiritual sustenance". Tien and Shallan were both talented artists and both helped encourage and motivate their siblings.

I think the only connection between the orders and unmade is that some of the unmade counter things central to what certain orders stand for. For example, windrunners and edgedancer are all about protecting and helping others, Nergaoul causes urges for indiscriminate violence. Stonewards and Elsecallers are known for their strong will and dispassionate logic respectively, Ashertmarn urges you to ignore logic, tries to force you to go against your better judgementand and give in to your base instincts. The others might be a little different, and assume other roles necessary in warfare. I'm still convinced Sja-anat used to be a spymaster. Based on what the sleepless said in the Kaza interlude, about some things being able to pry secrets from a soul even after death, I think that Moelach is also collecting information, and death rattles are a side effect of that.

I've got a feeling too. Not a lot of evidence, but it wasn't the Stormfather or Honor by extension, it doesn't feel like something Odium would send. Maybe Cultivation? I don't know, but my money is on Nohadon's Cognitive Shadow.

On voidbinding being a cousin to the old magic, if we look at what both do, there's a pretty clear connection. If I understand correctly, the Nightwatcher meddles with the spiritweb of the person asking her for a boon, presumably adding (her own or Cultivation's) investiture into the mix. What Sja-anat does is similar in that she adds (again presumably) her own investiture, or Odium's, to the spiritweb of the spren in question, changing them and the way their magic works. In both cases investiture is being added to the spirit web to change the person in some way.

Could be. I just checked and that WoB is from 2012, so he could have even been referring to unsealed metalminds from Era 2. Just wanted to put it out as a possibility anyway. Personally I like the idea that it's dragonsteel the most. We know we'll eventually get to see it, and with stuff like Aethers getting name dropped in Stormlight I think it's not too far fetched to see items from unpublished works show up.

How about this?

I wonder if it's a physical vs. cognitive thing. To Soulcast Jasnah needs to convince the Cognitive aspect of a thing or person to change, the way Tension and cohesion seem to work is that they directly alter molecules in the physical. Not sure about gravitation. On another note, why do surges work in Shadesmar? Once you enter you and everything on your person is converted into investiture. You'd think that's the last place you could lash something. Unless investiture resistance is a thing purely (or at least primarily) of the PR.

So do you believe the Heralds, were they holding their honor blade would still be able to draw on Investiture directly from splintered Honor? I can't remember if we've seen Nale drain spheres himself, but I always assumed he would have to get his stormlight like everyone else.

On human Fused, there are those yellow spren with Shin appearance. We don't know what happens when a CS crosses into the physical without a vessel to inhabit, but a CS is essentially the same as any other spren and we know that they can cross over fairly easily. We have odious spren like Ulim and Yixli, I think there's a good chance they may be the first cognitive shadows created by Odium. Both of those spren mention that they are millennia old. I wouldn't be upset if we saw a tiny floating golden Amaram pop up in the next book.

Autonomy might be an interesting shard to throw in the mix. We think that with the right interpretation of the intent autonomy can pretty much do what she wants, but who knows what that particular mix might do. Maybe Sazed might interpret autonomy as not intervening at all and giving everyone else, and not him, complete autonomy. Ambition or Dominion might get him to do something, but they don't really feel like shards the Sazed pre harmony would be very interested in. Those might warp his personality in ways he probably wouldn't want.

Minor Secret history spoiler

Ah my mistake, I thought it was more recent than that. I agree, I wasn't referring to the shattering, or the Radiants that presumably shattered them, only that other humans may have lived there in between who had shards with gems. Or am I misunderstanding and you're saying the Radiants may have left the shards at stormseat? I explained poorly I think. I was trying to say that maybe some of the Radiants, after seeing what they had done, looked at the docile yet self sufficient dullform listeners and thought "Hey, let's not just let our bestfriend-murderblades lying around for anyone to grab, let's give them to these guys who look like they might not start murdering each other with them, to keep them safe and cause minimal harm." But I was only brainstorming ideas and I don't know how likely this really is. Wouldn't there be lighteyed listeners then? Do we know Eshonai's eyecolor? @Yata I agree that Radiants must have broken oaths before the Recreance, but can we be sure that those dead spend would have become shardblades? It's as good a possibility as I've seen, but do we know for certain that that's how it worked?

Kinda late but this is an interesting question. OB spoilers:

Wow yeah scary. I like it. Those guards in Kholinar do act very differently from all the other revelers... I do also wonder about the carrier. No spren we know is inhibited from moving on its own in the physical, unless they are trapped in a gemstone. Why would Sja-anats spy need a piggyback at all? Agreed, there should be more to him too. What I think is that as people die he looks through their minds to look for information. I say this because in the Kaza interlude the Sleepless refuses to tell Kaza if there is a cure because there are things that can take secrets from her even after death. The death rattles would be a side effect that where Moelach connects with the dying person so rifle through what they know, but in return the dying person gets to know some of what Moelach knows. Kinda like when Shallan touches Re-shephir both of their souls are exposed to one another.

Hmm I don't know... Sah's group wasn't executed, they were treated poorly and sent to the front lines... The kids really can't be held responsible for bringing a spy to Revolar (not that the adults can either really). The Fused whole deal is to win this Desolation and give Roshar to the new singers and then go to sleep or pass beyond or whatever. Those kids are the first to grow up in a world of free singers. Plus killing random kids won't get them their armies' trust or loyalty. I don't know, I think we might see Vai again, but maybe when we do, her head is full of Fused propaganda.

A lot of the unmade serve a specific purpose, useful in times of war. But Sja-anat's role is a little more unclear. She corrupts lesser spren, but how was that helpful to Odium during Desolations?We've been told the Radiants feared Sja-anat the most of all the unmade, yet we also know that corruptions like in the cases of Glys and the Oathgate spren are something new and were considered to be impossible in the past. So how do Odiums forces benefit from corrupting lesser spren? So seeing how she is called the taker of secrets, and that she is able to see and communicate with Shallan through a corrupted gloryspren, I could imagine that she was something of a spy master. Humans draw corrupted spren, Sja-anat sees what's going on and reports it. Could she have another purpose, and what does it mean for the Radiants and the outcome of the Desolation if Sja-anat defects? Why did Radiants use to fear her so if she couldn't change their spren?

Rereading Oathbringer again it really stood out to me how many new children are introduced to the story. Oroden, Gavinor, Rock's children Gift, Chord, Rock Jr., Star, Kuma'tiki and Song, Sah's daughter Vai... Even Mr. T's grandchildren are mentioned. There's Lift and Yanagawn as well, who aren't new but still get a good bit of development. With the back 5 books set at a time where most of these characters are at least approaching adulthood, can we speculate what will become of them? Obviously some will be more important than others, some might not be relevant at all, but I can't help feeling Brandon has introduced as many kids as he has specifically so they can play a larger role in the second arc. Lift, Oroden and Gavinor are the ones I feel like will have the greatest impact on the narrative, but I think Yanagawn is well on his way to becoming a more prominent character as well. He's had a lot of screen time and even a point of view chapter in OB. I think he has a lot of potential. I'd also love to see Vai and other singer children featured more. They are growing up in a very different world than their parents knew. I think it would be great to see how they get along growing up during a Desolation. Ditto with the missing listener children, lots of good stuff there. Is there anybody I missed? Gavinor and Oroden will probably be especially important in the back 5, but I couldn't say how specifically. I realize this is all very far in the future still, but I think the seeds are there, and speculation is what we do best. So how does everybody else feel about all the children?

Ah sorry, I wasn't t trying to say that BAM is in the sphere, only that Gavilar was somehow granted the Voidlight in that sphere through her.

Cool! I don't remember seeing this one before. He's said so many times that spren don't know how to get off world and yet. It'd be interesting to know at what time there are spren in Scadrial's CR.

I agree. I used to think the will was a radiantspren being drawn to the fabrials granting the surge, but the connection with the oathgates is a better one I think. Those spren aren't Nahel spren but utilize transportation. I just wonder why Kaza needs to draw it, why it's not with the fabrials like the oathgates spren, and why she can't see it. What happens to the spren when a fabrials breaks? Where do the spren come from. Did they need to be created first, is that their only purpose or is it more of a give and take? I love this topic, thanks for asking the question.

Has it? Maybe that's the WoB that I was looking for. Do you have it handy?

I always read it that the emphasis was not about trapping spren in general, but a very specific spren. Gavilar explains that a crucial spren was needed to facilitate forms, namely Ba-Ado-Mishram, who we know could grant access to Voidlight. This in combination with the fact that we know what Voidlight looks like from when Fused use it reads to me like it has to be Voidlight. We know Voidlight is inherntly different from stormlight in that it doesn't, or only barely leaks, at least when the Fused are using it, so that explains how the spheres weirdly keep their glow. In one of the headings from the crystal archive, I think an Elsecallers mentions that trapping an Unmade requires a special prison. We later see that in the Kings Drop. I don't know if several small spheres qualify as such a special prison. It could still be a voidspren, maybe even Ulim...that would be interesting too. It's true Eshonai thinks of forms of power, but again, Ba-Ado-Mishram was responsible for those as well during the False Desolation... I don't know, it just feels like Voidlight is the easiest answer.