DeTess

I think that part of the quick switch-around was caused by the fact that there where just a lot of people online. So once people started considering the possibility that Yitzi might not be evil, there where a lot of people around to make a turn-around happen. However, I'm not ruling your suspicion out. If I did think it was impossible for the elims to have manufactured this turn-around I wouldn't have posted that summary.

Btw, for the D1 lynch, I think we should be trying to be more critical of who to lynch than we generally tend to be for D1. The reason being that I expect the parole officer to use the D1 lynch to get the escaped convict without having to make a very strong case for why we should lynch that person. Depending on who the convict is, this might not be a possible tactic (good luck trying to get Wilson or Lopen lynched D1 without a very solid case, for example), but I do think we need to be aware that there is a player out there who has an interest in getting us to mislynch a particular person.

I'ts been 3 hours, so I'm pretty certain making a double post at this point would be allowed. I've done a quick reread of C1, but at this point there isn't much that stands out to me as useful and/or alignment indicative, at least with the current knowledge available to us. @TheMightyLopen, could you explain why exactly you are against last-minute vote-changes? Its understandable if you don't want to look like you're trying to sneak something past the radar, but you used it as an argument during the Yitzi discussion, and at that point there where about 4 other players also online and monitoring the thread, so a decision to change your vote wouldn't have been considered sneaky at the time. Also, Here's a time-line of the vote changes from the final couple of hours of the game, in case it helps anyone with analysis. The vote tally about 2 hours before the end of the cycle, from just after Elenion retracted his vote on cloud jumper: About an hour before the end of the day, Yitzi adresses the issue of him not really defending himself from votes. He then proceeds to vote on arinian. BR switches to arinian as well within seconds after yitizi's vote (claiming to have been ninja'd by Yitzi's vote). This brings it to a 3:3 draw between Arinian and Yitzi A bit of discussion occurs about what would happen in case of a tie. Drake steps in and places his vote on Yitzi to break the tie. He states that Arinian's attitude doesn't fell elimy to him, but also that he doesn't have too much to go on with Yitzi either. Sart steps in and answers a bunch of questions. He clarifies that in case of a tie, 1 person in the tie is randomly lynched. Randuir votes on Arinian, causing a 4:4 tie (if memory serves, there was less than 10 minutes left in the cycle at this point) BB switches his vote from Yitzi to Arinian, sealing the lynch on Arinian a minute or so after Randuir's post. He states that he is suspicious of Yitzi, Arinian and Pk, but is more suspicious of Arinian at that moment in time.

Sure, I can arrange that. All I need is a coin, a vial of steel-flakes and a bead of a steel-Lerasium alloy .

Time for Randuir's (C) pattented (TM) opinions on roles and strategy suggestions: Let'start with the allomantic metals: Tin: Tin is the only way PM's are available in this game, and PM's can be very important for passing on information or having behind the scenes discussion. Personally, I'd recommend having tin up roughly every 2-3 cycles, but since there are only limited charges available, the tin-eyes should use their own judgement ehre as well to see how often they sue their power. if at all possible, try to save enough tin for the last 1-2 cycles, as that's where, in my experience, PM's make the most difference. Soother/rioter: I've seen it advised once or twice before that the vote manipulators should announce their presence in C1, just so everyone knows how many there are. I personally think this is a bad idea. Elim manipulators won't do it, and village manipulators won't (shouldn't) be participants in elim hammers to change votes, so knowing how many village manipulators there are is in the interest of the elims, not the village. For the rest, use good judgement and time your use of the metal where it'll make a difference. Smokers: I don't have too much to add here. Personally I'd reserve using this power for preventing vote manipulation on close votes, but if you're in contact with an important allomancer, using it to hide them from any elims seekers is also a valid use (points at ringleader). Seeker: remember that people protected by copper look identical to people not burning at all. Also, there is only 1 lurcher (thief's child) and 1 coinshot (ringleader). Both of these are village-aligned (child is technically neutral, but wants to protect a villager). Apart from this little reminder, I don't have anything else to add. Thug: I'd personally say that it'd be better to use charges when you didn't need them, than to die with charges unspent. However, if you've only got a couple of charges, you should probably exercise good judgement. Depending on the situation, you might want to consider allowing a lynch to just take you out. If you think you can convince the village of your innocence with more time, go for it, but if you don't, it might be better to go down in one go. In my experience, nothing kills discussion faster than a lynch that is locked in within the first 12 hours of a cycle, which could be the case for a pewter-arm that survived a lynch. Village roles: Ringleader: As always with a kill role, you should exercise good judgement. Remember that, even if the scavenger doesn't die, you are only guaranteed 2 shots, and you will at most get 4 if the scavenger is very lucky. Scavenger: Pay attention to when the ringleader makes his kill. You don't want to waste a dose of retrieved steel. Pauper Noble: Remember that as long as the thief's child is alive, you've got the possibility of an extra layer of protection, so if you also happen to be a pewter-arm, you should keep this in mind. Also, just because you can drop to a neutral role doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to win the game for the village. The ward might never find you, and even if he/she does, you still need to make it to the end of the game alive. Neutral roles(as far as they have some influence on the success of the village): Escaped convict: You can soak up a single attack against your ward, so try to stay alive to do so. Parole officer: It would be in the villages interest if you could refrain from taking down the convict until after he's used up his one-shot protection. Thanks in advance . Thief's Child: depending on how many charges of iron you get, either use good judgement or have a permanent defense up. Remember, you lose if the pauper baron dies, and the village doesn't want the pauper baron to die as he's village. Thief: Unless it's from a suspected elim, that is. At a first glance, there are no particular game mechanics suitable for unusual amounts of subversion to try and find the elims(no alignment scans, and no abilities that would react differently to elims), so victory in this game will probably be mostly down to good analysis.

Yeah, I agree with Elenion's input on when a UIB agent should claim. I've been trying to figure out a way a UIB agent could sneak in his info without revealing himself, but I haven't had any success yet. Yitzi also made an interesting suggestion at the end of the cycle. I'll repeat my understanding of it here as he said he wouldn't be able to post. Yitzi suggested that everyone (meaning everyone, not just those who have roles) make a request to a single person that he doesn't ward against them. These requests are public, of course, so if anyone decides to ward against the person making the request, we'll probably know that he did so*. The big risk is that the elims could also easily make a request to their intended target, but a pattern like that might become noticeable after a bit. Several people have brought up that they don't like plans that involve the person being scanned knowing he is going to be scanned, and this is the best alternative I can think of. As I said before, all credit goes to Yitzi for this idea. *Technically, there is no differentiation between kills, but if there is only 1 kill, we can probably assume it was the elims trying to frame someone, rather than an intentional cytonics kill.

Sart Ninja'd me here. Since votes should be in a new post rather than an edit: Arinian.

Still good to have an answer to this, because if it is a roll of the dice to see who dies, I'll probably tie it up again. Okay, so having the UIB confirmed as an alignment scanner is good to know, and means we probably want some way for them to do their work without too much risk, but I'll discuss that more tomorrow.

Right, what I did was just calculate the odds for one person, and then based on those odds scale it to more people. that does mean I'm overestimating the risk somewhat, but I've got enough complicated math to deal with in my study to also break it out here to account for all possible permutations.

What mostly struck me was the fact that you felt the need to add a second vote to Ecth in addition to asking him some questions and (@)Mentioning him. He has actually been tied for most votes at one point, in addition to leading until the votes started piling up against Yitzi, so your argument that it probably wouldn't hurt him doesn't seem to actually hold in this case. However, your argument do make some sense, I guess. Lopen. About Yitzi, has anyone else noticed that he hasn't exactly been defending himself much? He's mostly been continuing to try to find a way to allow village roles to get around the cytonics system (or at least he's trying to appear that way). On the one hand, I'd like to think that an elim would try to defend himself more if he was the leading candidate for the lynch, instead of just continuing with trying to find a useful tactic for the village. On the other hand, this would fit within his play-style, from what I've seen in other games, at any rate, and if he was an elim he might try to have his team-mates defend him by proxy, which would probably be done with arguments like the one I (and Lopen) have just made. Yeah, I should probably cut this part out of my post. Speaking off people that haven't posted at all yet (yes, we where definitely talking about that): @Cluny the Scourge, will you be joining us anytime soon? Also, @cloudjumper, I can see that you are both online and looking at the thread right now (or where doing that recently). Do you have any insights you wish to share with us? Vote tally: Ecthelion(1): PK, Lopen, Arinian Brightness(1): Seonid Yitzi(4): Brightness, Bridge Boy, Jondesu, The flash Bridge Boy(0): The Flash Lopen(0): Randuir Drake Marshall(1): StrikerEZ Arinian(1): PK Cloudjumper(1): Asterion137 Paranoid King(1): Lopen @Sart, I've got another question. Apologies if this has already been answered somewhere. Will there be a difference in the write-up between PC, Alien and cytonics kills? Edit: okay, Cloudjumper was no longer looking at the thread by the time I posted this, but the point stands.

I kept my calculations relatively simple, so I assumed that each person would was the only one using non-cytonics actions (bringing in the others makes things significantly more complicated). I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. Do you mean that everyone should indicate someone that they'd prefer would not ward against them, or do you mean that each cycle we have a vote for one person that shouldn't be defending so that they can be scanned (and, drawback: killed) without risk? Or do you mean something else? Also, has it been confirmed that PC kills will be confirmed as being such?

Agreed. However, just FYI, Ecth is a 'him', not a 'her'. Edit: Or at least, he was back when we played LG30. Apologies if something changed in that time period, Ecth .

Because I got curious, I ran the math. Assuming two deaths per cycle, no cyto adepts and random picks for who to defend against, there's a roughly 20% chance someone using actions on others will have died to cytonics by C3. If we assume that there are 3 non-aliens with powers that target others and can be intercepted by cytonics, then there's an approximately 50% chance one of them will have died by the end of C3. Of course, people don't actually spread their cytonics around randomly, but will instead target people they suspect (or so I hope). This means that, provided the ones submitting actions are paying attention to how the thread regards them, they should actually run a smaller risk (maybe you shouldn't use your scanning power against the guy stating that he is very suspicious of you).

Okay, there's less than 6 hours left for C1, so I should probably put my vote out there. I might switch around at a later point, but for now I'm going to go vote on Lopen. He sets his vote up as a typical poke vote (Hey, you haven't said much yet, here is a vote and some questions to get you to talk more), but the vote he places is actually the second vote on him. He's well aware of this as well, as he included a vote tally. I'm not against a poke vote, if it's the first vote on someone, but in this case the vote moved Ecth to the most likely position to get him lynched(in any other cycle, probably not, but in C1 a lead like that can be deadly). It is also not unusual for Ecth to be quiet during the first cycle. I'm still weary of both PK and Yitzi, though less so of Yitzi than I was before. If necessary I might move my vote to break an ecthelion/yitzi tie though. Remember, There are no vote manip powers, and the secret vote power needs to be activated on a night turn, which hasn't occured yet, so there is no reason to consolidate the vote on any particular suspect. Vote tally: Ecthelion(2): PK, Lopen Brightness(1): Seonid Yitzi(3): Brightness, Bridge Boy, Jondesu Bridge Boy(1): The Flash Lopen(1): Randuir

Actually, it's only a 1 in 17 chance(ignoring people not using cytonics), as long as you use your power on someone, and they pick their defense randomly, there is a 1 in 17 chance they pick you. The chances involved in you picking someone randomly don't matter (look at the chances of getting a double on a set of dice, this is a similar problem). I haven't really found a tactic that I think is better than just exercising good judgement yet, but given that this is C1, there's no harm in spending some time coming up with ideas.

If we do include enough fake requests, it should work to protect those with actual roles. It would also allow the elims to smuggle a request in for easy kills if enough people put in requests like that, though this is less of an issue if we avoid putting multiple requests against the same person. Getting the information out there is always going to be an issue in games without PM's, though I do agree having the elims know that they have been scanned could work in their advantage, though that could also come into play with your proposed system, though to a lesser degree. It could be circumvented to some degree if scanners where to apply some thought to how they approach getting someone lynched that they scanned. Instead of declaring that they are an agent and have scanned them and determined that the person is evil, they could try presenting the accusation as a case of analysis (as part of an analysis of multiple people, if possible). This is not fool and/or genius-proof, but it might work to keep scanners hidden.

I've just come up with a potential way in which the role-scanning ability might be employed somewhat safely, if it does indeed also function to figure out aliens (otherwise I don't think it's worth the bother). If the village would vote each cycle on who should be scanned, then that person would be expected to not taken actions to take out whoever would do so. Since everyone knows who is going to be scanned, but not who will do the scanning there is information to be gained if the scanner ends up dead, while at the same time it protects the UIB agent. The big risk is that with this system, the elims would also know of at least one person that would probably be undefended. If they do decide to go after this person each cycle though, any irregularities will be quite obvious and can be used (hey, they didn't kill the guy we wanted to scan this cycle, maybe that means that that guys is an elim?). So, opinions anyone? Did I overlook something that breaks this system?

@Haelbarde, is there any way to gain more charges of metal during the course of the game?

Okay, so here is one I'd prepared earlier(and if Sart hadn't overslept, this would have been the first post in the game, so no complaining about people having already said this): Time for a strategy and power discussion. I’ll first discuss Cytonics below, and the implications this has for the game. After that, I’ll quickly go through the various roles and give my opinions on them. So, Cytonics. A power that doesn’t just protect you from a specific player, but that kills that player if he does try to do something to you. This is of course fantastic if you can take out an alien this way, but unfortunately it can also take out a village UIB agent, to given an example. This has as a consequence that those with targeted roles (firebrand, UIB agent, PC Operator) need to be very careful with their actions. Likewise, those using their actions to protect themselves should be careful that they don’t accidentally end up killing an important villager (I’d say losing a UIB agent or PC is going to hurt the village a lot). I’ve been trying to figure out a way that would minimize the risk of these roles getting taken out by a villager, but I haven’t really come up with anything yet. I’ll list what I’ve come up with below, as well as the reasons why I think they are either stupid, or don’t really have a net gain. If anyone has a better solution, I’d urge you to share it with the village. Even if you only have some half-formed ideas, sharing them (like I’m doing here) could allow others to expand on them and refine them. First, the trivial solution is to have the UIB agents and PC operators role-claim, and just general agree that no one protects against them. This is of course an incredibly stupid thing to do, as it also gives the elims a list of high-value targets that they should kill and/or protect against. Seriously, don’t do this! The second idea would be to have the village simply agree to not use cytonics on certain cycles so that alignment scanners can do their thing. This would allow the scanners to do their job (unless they hit an alien), but it also means that the elims will be able to kill without risk. Another possible solution is that every villager openly declares who they will be warding against. This turns this ability from active protection into a more passive deterrent, but it might give us a way to pinpoint elims as we see who does and doesn’t get targeted by elims in relation to their defenses. It might also give the elims a way to try and triangulate the UIB agent(s) and PC operators, however (and it means they run a far smaller risk at getting killed by defences). In all honesty, I don’t particularly like any of my two actual solutions enough to propose using it over just trusting in luck and good judgement on the part of the villagers for who to target with cytonics. I’ve mostly put them out here in case someone gets inspired by one of them and manages to turn them into something workable. Now, on to the roles: Firebrand: Remember that your vote is placed during the night, so it might be useful for you to start discussion about who to lynch early so you can target this ability more precisely. Do be careful that you don’t stand out as constantly starting discussion early, as that might result in you getting targeted by aliens. Soldier: Just make careful judgement about who to take down with you. Politician: This is potentially a very useful information gathering tool, so make sure to use it. If you notice people warding against you often, while you aren’t under any suspicion, it might be indicative that they are aliens worrying that you are an agent or PC operator. It’s not proof in and of itself, but it could give you an indication of who to trust and or distrust. I’d also recommend that you try to find some way to ensure the information you’ve gotten this way is preserved if you get killed. Unfortunately, PM’s are not allowed, so that way is out. I’m sure you are smart enough to think of other methods, however. Adept: As mentioned before, exercise good judgement in targeting your wards. UIB agent: I’d recommend that you do try and be careful with who you target, because scanning someone that is very suspicious of you could result in a quick death. Like the Politician, you should look into a way to share what you’ve found out without revealing yourself, if this is at all possible. PC Operator: I’ve said this before with the soldier, but it bears repeating: be very careful with who you target with kills, as someone just using his kill ability because he can is a threat, rather than an asset to the village. Now, some reactions to various posts: Two of the role-based actions are kills (PC operator) and role-scannner (UIB Agent), and since the alien is listed as a role, this is probably an alignment scanner (waiting on Sart's confirmation). These are very powerful and useful roles, and just ignoring them is a bad idea in my opinion. The big problem with this is that this gives the elims very useful information. If someone where to ask permission to use an action against someone else, the elims would know that the person requesting the permission has both an important role (the only one that would be asking for permission is the UIB agent), and that this person has no defenses up, as actions replace defenses. This would be an incredibly efficient way to lose all our scanners, and I'm honestly a bit surprised you missed this, Yitzi. (and yeah, this has been said by a couple of others already, but it bears repeating) Cytonics only protect against the actions by a single player, so it won't stop all kills. On the same front, it won't stop all info actions either, but it's a bigger risk to the village, as the loss of an agent could result in all his gathered information getting lost with him. Like BB, I'm a bit suspicious of PK and Yitzi right now, just because their suggestions seem to be pushing the village in a direction that would be detrimental for it (as important roles get either found out by the elims (yitzi) or get ignored (PK)). However, these two also often come with good ideas and insights later in the game, so I'm somewhat hesitant to kill them on a C1 suspicion. I'll have to think about this some more. @Sart Would you be willing to comment on how densely spread the roles are? This game doesn't seem to be role-madness(apart from everyone having cytonics, I guess), but that's about all I know at this point. Aliens? Bah, racist nonsense! Tom was about to voice his opinion on the bigot on the other side of those speakers, but caught himself at the last moment. Everyone else in the room seemed quite on edge, so sharing this opinion might not be the best for his long-term health. Tom looked around the room again. Some of the people in the room with him might be human-supremacist extremists, intend on framing the peaceful aliens for a terrible act of terrorism. He wasn't planning on allowing this to happen, but how could he find them? A thought struck him. Because these people would be trying to frame the aliens, they would obviously be trying to behave like they where actually non-human entities. So to find them, he'd have to find people that where pretending to be aliens. This shouldn't be difficult at all.

I always imagine it as more of a mind-over-matter situation, so 'forcing' would be the natural and 'correct' way to go about things. Asking something to change is less likely to work as you aren't really in the right mindset. The mindset/visualization you need for soulcasting is "this rock is now smoke", not "wouldn't it be nice if this rock where to turn to smoke". I'ts been a while since I re-read the scenes in which we got a PoV from a soul-casting, so I'm not certain about my theory, but this is just how I always imagined it.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Kelsier and Vin where rioting the crowd around them to counteract TLR's soothing. The only role copper played in this was keeping them hidden from him.

Any chance you can add a specific option for the SE sub-forum, Straw?

Sure, I'll sign up. I'm going on holiday at the end of next month, but I don't expect this to become a problem. If it does, I'll make sure to put a warning up in time. I'll be Bartolomeus Teki... Yes, Bartolomeus Teki. Don't look at me like that! That was exactly what I meant to say. What do you mean, you think I wanted to say something more? Why are you asking all these questions? Are you some kind of constable? Do you know what we do to constables around here? Anyway, I had one question: Does the game end when the parole officer gets his win-condition? And if it doesn't, does he need to survive till the end of the game to win if he managed to lynch his target?

( @Aonar Faileas) LG30 had a system that awarded roles to active players, activity being based on discussion participation and RP (with 1 point being given for each, each cycle). The RP requirement was at least two posts, with 200 words between them. According to my notes from that game, almost all that where active managed to consistently get that RP credit for most of the game. What I mean to say by this is that if there is an active reward for RP, most people are quite willing to put in the effort for it, even if they normally wouldn't RP as much. Edit: what did help in that game was that each write-up contained a great prompt for role-play. I suggest taking a look at that game (if you hadn't already) if you plan to run a game with an emphasis on RP.

@BrightnessRadiant, this looks like a fun game. I have one question regarding the inhuman win condition: let's say that the inhumans have reached thr amount of survivors they need to win, and then convert an elim to an inhuman. What is to stop them from just posting the entire list of elim players to guarantee a win? ("Working as intended" is a valid answer, btw, just as long as you considered this situation).