Jofwu

My point is that the Diagram was written before Renarin became what he is. Prior to Glys, Jasnah never would have had any reason to kill him in the first place. That said, I'm not entirely sure it holds up to close scrutiny. It's certainly possible that the Diagram says something that's hard to reconcile with my theory, but I'm not aware of any such thing. Do you know what the Diagram predicts/says about Renarin? Particularly concerning the time after the Battle of Thaylen Field? Nothing comes to mind and the Coppermind page doesn't mention him. I don't mean to say that he's JUST a smokescreen for Dalinar. That's sort of what he is at the moment, as he's just coming into his powers. Definitely don't mean to say that's all he is or all he will be. I think that black infinity that Odium sees is going to grow much larger in the coming books, and play into Renarin's very important 2nd arc role.

I hadn't seen this theory before. That's an awesome idea! It makes me wonder if the day of the Diagram's creation was just "the beginning" or if something drastic happened that day which required Taravangian to make a massive change of course. And if the latter... what happened that day?! I won't dig into it in detail here as the theory isn't entirely relevant to this topic. (And it is of course just a theory.) My short response is that I don't see why this is any reason to doubt the theory. I'm not saying Renarin is pulling the future in a different way than was predicted. I'm saying there are events around him which were once 99.9% likely to happen a certain way, and now he's unknowingly shifting those odds. (by having the powers he does and being the person he is) I think it's pretty clear that he's the reason Odium is having a hard time predicting events surrounding Dalinar, and I think it's no coincidence that the Diagram is having a difficult time there as well.

Definitely a capital U. The text reads: But capitalization can be used to emphasize many things beyond "this is a Shard," obviously. I think it's pretty obvious Dalinar didn't pick up a full Shard. When those on Scadrial did this, they lost their bodies and their minds were greatly expanded. They didn't become omniscient, but they became aware of many, many things. Dalinar didn't experience anything like that. I like the idea that @Xavier Iriarte mentions, where Dalinar has summoned some "portion" of Honor which could cumulatively be described as something like a sense of unity. But we could also be reading into it a bit too much. It could just be Dalinar's way of describing his perceived role as a uniter.

See I think we've just been mislead by poor accounts of meeting with the Nightwatcher. I think these are well within what Nightwatcher is capable of doing, and would be a little disappointed if Nightwatcher is nothing more than a trickster who gets called to heel when Cultivation wants to do something actually cool. The only examples we have (if I'm not mistaken) come from the Baxil interlude and are completely word of mouth. That isn't to say Nightwatchers work is never silly. I'd just be disappointed if it's just a genie with a weird sense of humor. Yes, but the only reason it worked out this way for him was because she specifically removed a bunch of his memories. Lift seems to have a very clear memory of her visit, and I don't see any reason why Taravangian wouldn't. None of them mention anything weird about their encounters. They went, they asked for a thing, they got a boon and a curse. Lift's is a little vague in this respect, but I'd chalk that up to the fact that (1) it's meant to be more complex than a young girl can make sense of and (2) the explanation for why she got what she did is going to be a bit of a twist in a later book. As for the WoB, Brandon has never been intentionally misleading with Dalinar as far as I can see. When people asked about his involvement with the Nightwatcher or his boon/curse, Brandon would RAFO it or answer around it. (and say that the answer is coming in Oathbringer) In this question, the person didn't even bring up the fact that her condition is related to the Nightwatcher. Brandon is the one brought her involvement into the mix, and if it was Cultivation's tampering then he's just being misleading I think. (intentionally or otherwise) All of that together makes me skeptical that we'll get a "Surprise! It was actually Cultivation!" for ALL of these cases which are interesting. It will be overdone if it happens a second time, and just plain irritating if it happens a third.

I absolutely think Taravangian (and the Diagram) may be a tool of Cultivation, but I disagree with @Calderis on the accuracy of the Diagram. I believe the WoB pasted by @hoiditthroughthegrapevine above and Taranvangian's own understanding of his encounter with the Nightwatcher suggests that it was indeed the Nightwatcher who was involved. That is, Lift definitely seems to be a product of the Nightwatcher, and I think Taravangian would be able to tell the difference between Nightwatcher and Cultivation. (Dalinar was) Not entirely sure this is relevant... But I suppose it supports the fact that the Diagram isn't some masterpiece of Cultivation. Maybe it's some measure of basic futuresight that he's been granted on occasion. Personally, I imagine it's exactly what he thinks it is--an insane level of analytical brilliance. Either way, it's prone to error. And I think Renarin is a primary source for that error, particularly where Dalinar is concerned: I think Renarin's ability to see the future is causing disturbances that the Diagram couldn't possibly predict. Taravangian certainly thinks the Diagram is a "perfect" thing, which must be followed religiously. I think he's a fool, likely being manipulated by Odium and/or Cultivation to some end. The biggest challenge to the idea that the Diagram didn't predict this outcome is the text Taravangian reads at the end: My first thought is that I'll be very surprised if he isn't being directly manipulated by Odium here. He didn't come to the meeting with this piece of the Diagram figured out, so far as I can tell. So he starts making up some reason why Odium needs him, and suddenly he finds himself in front of some bit of some text that lays out an argument to use? Odium caused these glowing words to appear in the first place, extrapolating beyond the Diagram. I think it's a complete fabrication by Odium. If not that, it's part of what Odium sees (at this point, after the failure with Dalinar) and he's letting Taravangian have a glimpse. Either way, the point is to make Taravangian think this is all his idea. It's working pretty well. There's no way in Braize Taravangian (on a stupid day, no less) had a meeting with Odium and came out with a good bargain. He's being played.

The spheres used for currency are "a little larger than a person’s thumbnail." The Shadesmar beads are supposed to be smaller. ("...like those that would hold Stormlight, but dark and small...") But apparently big enough to pick up an individual sphere comfortably. So perhaps the size of a pinky nail?

Concerning the original post of the topic, I wanted to say... I think Brandon's being really optimistic here. Which makes sense... He's trying to break the news gently. It's easy to say you hope someone will be pleased and then walk away, you know? At the end of the day he's going to tell the story he wants to tell, and he's just hoping it pleases more people than it doesn't. I assume he's implying that he's not going to just drop the Shallan-Adolin relationship and let it settle. That would surely frustrate a lot of people--particularly those who aren't fond of the relationship as it is now. My hope is that he does interesting things with their relationship and that it affects their stories in meaningful ways. In that case, perhaps people who didn't like the pairing will find something to love (or at least like) over the next two books. But obviously there's no way it will please everyone. I can't speak as a Shalladin shipper, so I can't pretend to know what development would make their relationship more interesting to read from that perspective. Personally, I hope that Brandon uses them to explore marriage of a young couple (something he did with Vin/Elend, but I think he can do better). I hope they have problems to work through. More specifically, I'd like to watch them have to work through Shallan's issues together. Maybe Adolin doesn't really understand her issues to some extent. So let him learn. Maybe Adolin doesn't love her as much as he should (or vice versa). So let's see that develop. My hope is that Brandon sees room for conflict/development in their current relationship, and he takes some time to explore it.

Alright, for my 1000th post on the 17th Shard... Updated version with correct Pailiah spelling! I'm too lazy/busy to figure out exactly what I did to make the multiple black versions, so I'm not toying with that. You only get two options now, sorry. Original post is updated.

Adolin shows his love more in his actions than his thoughts I think. He brings her food when he hears she hasn't eaten, which is pretty thoughtful. He wants to teach her how to use a Shardblade because it's something he loves and he's excited to share it. He wants her to come along with the visit to Ialai because he think she's smart and comforting to him. He defends her from Dalinar when Shallan annoys him. etc. etc. And okay... yes. All of this could be interpreted in a different direction. That's totally reasonable. This is just how I read it, and how I think Brandon intended for it to come across. If I've learned anything from getting my wife into these books, it's that (1) Brandon's [generally] not that great at writing romance and (2) my own taste for romance is unrefined. I think most of the debate over the interactions between Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin boils down to different people seeing different things in the same text.

We are clearly reading two different characters, maybe even books. First of all, I don't remember Palona reading any books, I think you are remembering that ardent in the interlude. Either way, just because one woman reads romance books it doesn't mean that all women do and maybe you should be a little more careful with that generalization on a public forum where female readers participate. On the contrary, Shallan wasn't like that, from Way of Kings: Chapter 8: I think Robardin's referring to this, from OB chapter 122: Maybe making some assumptions that she enjoys things similar to what Ellista was reading. Though I think it's a mistake to assume that either of these give us a clear picture of the entirety of "women's fiction" on Roshar. (and even more so to assume Shallan has been shaped by it) That said, I think you're understating Shallan's level of romantic interest. This quote says nothing about Shallan's personal interests--she's got bigger issues at the moment than entertainment. That doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy romance novels in her spare time, and interest in romance novels has little bearing on romantic interest in general. Like Robardin said, we only have to look at her relationship with Kabsal to see romantic interest from her in TWoK.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE PAILIAH! Arg.... Thanks too Argent for pointing this out. Pailiah's name has been spelled wrong all this time. Fun history fact: I think we originally got her name way back when from a WoB and somehow came away with a bad spelling. (probably transcribed that way) It ended up on the wiki (and all over the place) with this incorrect spelling, and just kept getting propagated. (Exhibit A: this chart!) Peter happened across her page on Coppermind a while back (years after WoR had given us the correct spelling and nobody noticed the error) and pointed out the error. I personally went through and fixed every instance I could find on the wiki and a few other places... Unfortunately I didn't realize I had it wrong on my own darn chart! Hoping to update it this week sometime, when I get a chance to dig up the files.

We definitely encourage anyone to edit @Dizzy. Thanks for making an account and <considering> making the change yourself! The Skybreaker's 4th Ideal is strange. Whether Szeth's statement in OB can be taken as the actual oath or not, I think the general consensus is that it isn't "fulfilled" in the way normal Ideals are by speaking it. That is to say, it seems like a 3rd Ideal Skybreaker has to actually do what they swear they will do before they are "of the 4th Ideal." When the Ideals are explained, Szeth is told that he must "undertake a personal quest and complete it." That completion seems to be a necessary component before Szeth advances.

I believe I made sure my audio had everything when it was being snipped. It looks like @Personification made this entry yesterday? I approved it and attached the snippet.

Chapter 86: I'm pretty sure this is meant to refer to Shallan filling the final lamp in the Oathgate. When the lamps are mentioned earlier they have "gems" in them (in metal lattices). I'm guessing the instance of "spheres" here is a mistake; should read "...infusing its gem", or if the lamps have multiple gems each "...infusing its gems." Edit: Eh.... but then chapter 87 doubles down on "sphere." So I'm not really certain which it's supposed to be. Does seem like an inconsistency, unless I'm reading something wrong.

Great comment by u/drostandfound in r/fantasy explaining some of the background, for those not familiar with Magic who are curious:

My thoughts as well. I'm gonna guess she's actually behind the attack on the sand masters.

Nice find! If that's representative of the art style I'm pumped. That's a perfect marriage between the original art style and the ending of volume 2, from what I can tell. Anyone know anything about Fritz Casas? (apparently the new artist)

@FishyLD Who doesn't?! Welcome to 17th Shard!

@Ookla the Dragon Reborn And you did a great job! We'd just like to see them brought to completion.

Brandon has mentioned this in other cases. I've never had the impression that there's any significant change that matters. It's always compared to plate tectonics and long term erosion, so it's more of a "geological timescales" sort of issue. Even if you had a few miles of movement over 10,000 years... you're talking about maaaaybe a few feet per year? That's just not very significant to anyone but a scientist. If Odium starts chewing away giant chunks of the coastline with the Everstorm I will be incredibly surprised. Especially considering the humans he has the most control over (the Iriali) are where the storm is hitting the coast.

I've got this page of "Things you may have missed" in reading Stormlight. It's basically a list of interesting things in each book that are easy to miss/overlook/misunderstand or that weren't revealed clearly in the books alone. The Oathbringer page needs an update, and I could use some help thinking of things that need to be included. Anything come to mind that you think definitely needs to be in there? Note: This does not include connections to other cosmere books. I've got a list of those elsewhere. I'm specifically focusing on Stormlight Archive stuff here. Current list: Dalinar's memories of Evi were taken by Cultivation herself--not by the Nightwatcher. Dalinar summoned Honor's Perpendicularity in chapter 119. Odium confirms (Chapter 122) that Dalinar Ascended in this moment. It is not entirely clear what is implied when Dalinar declared, "I am Unity," or what Odium meant when he said, "WE killed you." Jasnah obtained pictures of the Heralds from Wit, during their time together between the WoR Epilogue and her arrival in Oathbringer. ("I have drawings of their true faces, provided by an unexpected source." Chapter 53 and "Why has Midius been giving away pictures of us?" Chapter 121) Lopin seems to be chasing his spren, Rua, at the end of Chapter 55. This is possibly their first meeting. Humans originally came to Roshar from Ashyn. (WoB) The Cryptic that Wit picks up in the Epilogue was the one who was going to bond Elhokar. (WoB) Urithiru is not a spaceship. [WoB]

Since this has been primarily a personal project, I figure it deserved a post in this blog as well. I'm not going to talk about the content of the timeline itself here. This is more about the background and (ongoing) development of it. Link to the timeline for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wdigy6ZNX4EGRAaUskfM0LXNANksyM1JintSn4yKSyM/edit#gid=2005334307 Inspiration There were two primary inspirations for creating this timeline. First was this Wheel of Time timeline, which mostly just made me jealous that we didn't have a similar overall timeline in the works. Second was the Words of Radiance Timeline that was primarily created by WeiryWriter. Between the Everstorm countdown and a list of highstorm dates revealed in an epigraph, were were able to pin down most of the events in Words of Radiance with great accuracy. Weiry had started a timeline for The Way of Kings, but there just wasn't much concrete information to work with in that book, unfortunately. Because these timelines were living on Coppermind, we didn't want to post anything there that was more assumption than fact. Concept So the idea here is to have a timeline that DOES allow for assumptions and guesswork. But it was important to me that the whole thing be as well-researched and supported as possible. I wanted to support every date on the timeline with some kind of sourced information. Assumptions needed to provide the supporting evidence. And the confidence or certainty in an event needed to be transparent. I began by importing the Words of Radiance timeline and building out my concept for how this would work. There are two ideas that stood out: "events" and "intervals". An "event" is some event that happens in-world. A point in time that happens on a specific date. An "interval" is some period of time that passes in between events. Both events and intervals can have a "range" or "error" associated with them. This is introduced by uncertainty and assumptions. For example, if a flashback happened "Five Years Ago", we can use an interval of exactly 5 years... But we know that this doesn't mean precisely 5 years. Brandon isn't being that specific. So we attach some wiggle room to the interval. Instead of an interval of "minus 5 years" we use "minus 5 years, plus or minus 2.5 months". This error introduced by interval uncertainty factors into the dates themselves, of course. And it adds up. So if there was some event that happened "one year plus or minus 2 months" after the flashback of that last example, this event now has +/- 4.5 months of error with respect to the event that the flashback date is based on. The range alone doesn't account for what I call "confidence". There's a bit of gut feel involved here, and it's certainly true that more error/range tends to come with less confidence. But there are certainly cases where something with a range is still something we can be fairly confident in. Development After importing Words of Radiance I began to work on The Way of Kings, which is where things got really challenging. You have to really dig into that book, digging for any scrap you can get. For example, at some point there is an implication that Sadeas's bridge crews are supplemented with new men on chachel, the third day of the week. We can use this tidbit later in the book to pin down the days that Lopen and Shen join Bridge Four. Another thing I had to do a lot was work backwards. Most of Kaladin's TWoK timeline is actually worked backwards from the end of the book. Because the time that passes during Part 1 is incredibly ambiguous. There's also some contradictions, or just things that don't seem to fit very well. A comment by Elhokar at the first feast put the Chasmfiend hunt disaster on a date that doesn't work with the story, for example. Another thing involving the Chasmfiend hunt--Kaladin was strung up for the highstorm on that same day, which doesn't entirely make sense because Sadeas was out on the hunt. Prior to the release of Oathbringer, Karen Ahlstrom gave us some tidbits that helped pin down some of the dates. This helped a lot. Some of them I wasn't entirely sure about, and I regret that I didn't keep better record of those disagreements. In any case, I've tried my best to align my timeline with hers and make note of any clear contradictions that exist. I got some help pulling together notes for chronology in Oathbringer. It isn't, unfortunately, as precise as WoR was, but Brandon is more free with mentioning the passage of time at least, and Karen seems to be doing a pretty good job of tweaking the numbers so that it makes sense. I have not worked out all of my timeline to match her dates yet, however, because there are a few tweaks here or there that I think need to be made. In any case, I've still got a bit more content from Oathbringer that needs to be worked out. Issues One frustrating thing about the timeline is that it's SLOW. It takes forever to open/load, and this is only going to get worse with more books. The calculations that happen in the spreadsheet aren't terrible, but every row of the sheet does have more calculations going on than you might think. And on the timeline sheet there's a lot of string concatenations that slow things down pretty badly. I'm also frustrated by the way each entry has to exist on a single row. There are some cases where an event is based on TWO other events/intervals, and the only way to do this is by doing the math manually. This gets dangerous because many thing in the timeline are subject to change, so a shift in one of those dependencies can cause an error and I wouldn't know it readily. The sources and notes are also crammed into a single cell, which is terribly sloppy organization. Adding new rows has also caused some problems. Each entry has to be referenced by an ID, and I'm uncomfortable creating these manually for fear of making a mistake. Future Plans To solve a lot of these problems, I've been looking at moving the whole thing to an offline relational database. Anytime I made a change I would have to manually update the spreadsheet posted online, but I think it should be easy enough to automate most of that process. The idea is to have 3 separate tables for "events", "intervals", and "sources". Each one has a unique ID. Events are linked to one or more interval--it uses the average resultant date if so, and the overlap of their ranges to determine error. Intervals are linked to one or more sources. I don't have to put events/intervals/sources in some logical row on a spreadsheet. I can just add new ones to the end, letting the database assign them a unique ID. I should be able to build an interface for inputting this info so that I don't have to add it directly to a table myself. From there it's a simple query to compile everything. And with all of the information in a database I should be able to do a lot of other cool stuff that would be harder to do in the original spreadsheet. For example, I'd like to see what happens if I filter out everything below some confidence threshold. Because the information is more transparent, and not put together by a chain of concatenations, I can do some other cool stuff like create links between an entry on the timeline and the source info. Here's an output from the (very much work in progress) new version I'm working on: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zq5bJoKE83ggDCjH43i1hZi0CIpB2iAx7v37zQPVFK0/edit#gid=856252766 All this to say, not much should change to the front end of the timeline. But there might be a bit more transparency/functionality, and inputting new data should be a cleaner process. Anything else to say? I don't think so. Feel free to ask questions though.

Special thank you to whoever asked this one! I think it supports my theory really well. Edit: lol... two at the same signing apparently.