Kingsdaughter613

To be fair... I doubt most of who theorized that Thaidakar was Kell actually thought it would happen. It was a lot of fun creating ‘proofs’ for the theory and it was fun to debate, but did anyone really expect a Mistborn protagonist as a SA antagonist? I didn’t - and I was one of those arguing for it! Now I want to know how a SA reader will react upon reading MB for the first time. Hoid agreed with your sentiment, btw. I get the feeling this was one of those times when Kell would just not listen to Brandon.

I’d argue the first is more likely to be okay with Honor than Valor. Valor wouldn’t have you sneak in, but plenty of honor codes are fine with killing that prisoner. Honor is more likely to have a retreat; Valor would have you die trying to hold the bridge. Valor: strength of mind or spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness : personal bravery (Merriam-Webster) great courage, especially in war (Oxford) The later has it as a synonym for bravery. Honor: good name or public esteem : REPUTATION b: a showing of usually meritedrespect : RECOGNITIONpay honor to our founder 2: PRIVILEGEhad the honor of joining the captain for dinner 3: a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high officeif Your Honor please 4: one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDITan honor to the profession 5: the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon 6: an evidence or symbol of distinction: such as a: an exalted title or rank b(1): BADGE, DECORATION (2): a ceremonial rite or observanceburied with full military honors c: an award in a contest or field of competition darchaic : a gesture of deference : BOW ehonors plural (1): an academic distinction conferred on a superior student (2): a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course 7: CHASTITY, PURITYfought fiercely for her honor and her life— Barton Black 8a: a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITYa man of honor b: one's word given as a guarantee of performance on my honor, I will be there 9honors plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host asked her to do the honors (Merriam-Webster) https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/honour_1 (link to the Oxford definition.)

Era 2 takes place in the time gap, so that’s highly unlikely. But Kell showing up in the back five is a distinct possibility.

Actually... I think Notum was inspired by Adolin risking his life to save him. A human, with no powers, willing to die to save someone who wanted nothing to do with him. Notum saw true honor that day. To betray that would have been completely dishonorable, and Notum knew it.

Valor would likely see killing someone who can’t fight back as cowardly, not dishonorable. Honor could be fine with it, depending on the system. Pirates’ Code Skybreaker, for example? Honor would probably be okay with honor killings, while Valor would think it cowardly. Honor would be very fine with many suicide bombers. I wasn’t trying to pick things the two would have opposing views on. However, Honor may not be okay with suicide bombers targeting innocents (depends on the exact system involved). Kamikaze pilots attacking enemy troops he’d be completely on board with. Both are in on heroic sacrifice. I get the feeling that Valor is very much the charge in, sword swinging one, while Honor is the thoughtful wise one, exercising both caution and power.

But that is an arc. It’s just not a very relatable one for someone who isn’t in Adolin’s position. I love that his arc is all about other people’s because you NEVER see that, but it is the reality when dealing with these situations. Our lives become defined by the people we care for. In their growth, we grow. In their triumph, we triumph. Every choice I’ve made for the past almost-four years has been for/about my daughter. Adolin’s arc resonates with me because it embraces that truth.

Killing a prisoner is not valorous. Suicide bombing is. Committing an assassination in broad daylight in full view of the world. Racing into a heavily armed building. Guerrilla fighting can be, depending on how it’s done. Honor is about bonds; Valor would likely be about courage and bravery.

Someone needs to destroy that sword.

Not regular evolution, which is already part of Cultivation. Darwinian social evolution. That’s what I meant; I’m tired and used the wrong term. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

If she surrenders willingly she may not die. Giving up a Shard does not equal death.

Teft was very close to swearing the fourth then - he would have been forgiving himself.

I think a certain Scadrian would be very interested in these experiments. What happens if this is done to a human Spren, ie. Cognitive Shadow?

I think Odium and Cultivation would be Darwinian Evolution (survival of the fittest). Cultivation and Honor are Science. Odium and Honor are War. So the three being Conquest definitely makes sense...

Kell would totally kill/imprison a Herald. That’s not even a question. But he wouldn’t approve of how Mraize tried to recruit Shallan, because it’s exactly what Kell deliberately did NOT do with Vin. He’d realize it would backfire and would consider Mraize a fool for going about things as he did. He also wouldn’t kill a bunch of porters. He generally doesn’t try to kill menial workers going about their lives. Cause massive indirect trouble? Oh yeah. But outright murdering them would not sit well with him. Which is why, outside of it being in the text, I’m pretty sure he’s not directly controlling the GBs on Roshar. Proxy is never as good as personal.

Prudence would be an Opposite of Valor. DAWNSHARD SPOILERS:

So, I wrote a whole thing about building expectations and how there is no point in building an expectation just for the sake of knocking it down. What you’re suggesting, that Hoid is framing Kell, is the only plausible reason for Brandon to do it. Although it still doesn’t make much sense for it to happen in a SA book. The characters have no idea of the significance of that line. Though Felt will... What I was saying happened earlier in the conversation. Mraize threatens Shallan with his master and his master’s master. Shallan assumes the latter is Thaidakar and Mraize immediately reacts to the name. On a casual read we’re supposed to assume that she’s right. HOWEVER. Two or three sentences later, Mraize tells Shallan that Thaidakar can’t be bothered to come personally to Roshar. This is (possibly) a hint to the reader that the above is wrong - and it’s in the same conversation. Misdirect and clue. Now, some people will catch it. Some won’t. On reread it becomes clear. But the most important thing is that the character is fooled. The character is not tricking the reader; the character is tricked and the reader may also be (though the truth is hidden in the conversation). It’s not a betrayal. Hoid’s Lord of Scars has meaning for only one group of people: us. It’s a message to us about Thaidakar’s identity. If that message is wrong then WE are the ones who have been tricked, not the characters. And that’s a betrayal. The GBs went after Jasnah because she was going after them, possibly after being encouraged by Wit (who does not like Kell). Yes, Kell would definitely chase her down for killing his people. I wonder if Kell actually considers Cultivation the threat. If he realized the power and vessel of Odium were fighting - which he might have, as he has had experience with that - he may have been more concerned with Roshar’s Second Shard. C was definitely more dangerous than Rayse, and I think Kell, who isn’t blinded by former associations like Hoid or the native Rosharan groups, may have realized that. Rayse he figures he can trick easily. Cultivation, on the other hand... I also have a theory that Kell tried to keep as much knowledge as possible of any major potential threats to Scadrial from his brief Ascension. And occasionally uses Atium+Duralumin to peek into the Spiritual Realm. Also: as someone who likes to run a long con, Kell may have recognized that Cultivation was planning one. If the GBs were actually trying to interfere with HER plans, well, that would put a very different twist on matters.

Kell would understand what T did but would not approve. This is a WoB, so not exactly debatable. The GBs seem to consist of multiple levels of ‘crews’. There seem to be several master/apprentice type levels leading up to a core group around Thaidakar himself. I don’t think they’re big, so much as they are very fluid and flexible. Kell’s MB crew was actually pretty big if you consider the levels. Several members of the crew had their own crews. At a certain point a literal army was part of the ‘crew’ (Kell definitely seems to consider the army his, so it counts). Kell gathers a small, specialized core crew who know as much of what’s going on as Kell is willing to reveal to anyone. Within that group, a handful know a few things others don’t. Only Kell knows everything. Then those crew gather their own crews to fulfill their various agendas. Those crews have their own subcrews, especially when we’re talking about the Cosmere - not Luthadel. I’m guessing the Luthadel Crew had three to four layers: Kell, the Crew, sub-crews, sub-sub-crews. The GB’s probably have between five and eight layers, depending on the world. I think Iyatil’s master is core crew, and there is one core crew member on each world. Those were personally picked by Kell. Iyatil is sub-Crew, and Mraize is a few steps below her. He’s her apprentice though, so he’s considered more of the same rank as her. Iyatil runs her own crew on Roshar, but Mraize often gets to use them too. Also worth remembering: Kell has run a government now, which is basically a big corporation. So it’s not like he doesn’t have experience running an organization. I doubt he sees the GBs as such, though.

Well, Brandon has hinted at a Wisdom/Prudence Shard...

True, but we also know the character. Kell wouldn’t be okay with some of the things the GBs have done. I doubt he’d approve of the way Mraize manipulated Shallan’s DID to try and recruit her, if only because it was likely to backfire. Look at how Kell recruits Vin, versus how Mraize tries to recruit Shallan. Mraize does what Vin thought Kell was doing. Kell proves otherwise and recruits Vin, while Mraize’s foolishness leads to him losing Shallan. So Kell would have disapproved - if only because it was stupid. And Kell wouldn’t have approved of killing random porters. If you were in his very broad category of ‘enemy’ he’d be fine with the deaths. But those porters weren’t nobles, or in other, similar categories. Just people trying to live their lives, and he usually does try to avoid harming those directly. (Indirectly... is a very different story. Kell struggles to recognize the indirect harm he causes.) However, knowing how ruthless he can be, many GBs would be surprised to realize this. So he definitely doesn’t approve of everything they do, but the GBs as a whole are very much his thing. Which is why I think the discrepancy comes down to lack of oversight and Kell not being able to guide them directly.

Looking honestly at your motivations is a way to grow, so I do think it is a worthy question to ask. But I suppose that’s a personal preference.

I’ve no doubt they would. Did I say I had an issue with it? My whole point was that Kell is human and, like all humans, has multiple reasons for his actions. He doesn’t need to be perfectly selfless to be a hero. Very few people are. It’s a question he needs to ask. But it’s one we ALL need to ask. Very few people are completely selfless. And even fewer actions are. Arguably, we do good things because it makes us feel good. Or because we’re raised to do so and would feel bad if we didn’t. Or because of the benefits we receive socially. Like every other human being, Kell needs to ask himself the hard questions because it’s the only way he’ll grow. The only real answer to that question IS ‘I don’t know.’ And then move forward, and continue to strive for greater heights.

Mine too.

I think Cultivation + Odium = Darwinian Evolution.

Spoilers for Mistborn:

This may be covered under Honor. If not, I’d say Justice/Judgement/Law or Scholarship/Knowledge. Mostly based off my chart: DAWNSHARD SPOILERS: